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Thread: Guess what open carry.org member made FOX news !

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    Guess what open carry.org member made FOX news !

    Congratulations on the media exposure at foxnews.com
    I pray to GOD above you sue the PPD for millions.
    The prosecutor's office has taken a laughable position in the reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct charge.

    Fox news actually has a link to the audio recording too.

    You are in my prayers, I know this is a stressful thing to go through.

    Bless you.

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    I like that later line in Stossel's report where the cops spent time calling supervisors to figure out what charges they could apply. Lovely, just lovely. If the cop didn't know the law before the seizure, he couldn't possibly have known whether he had authority to make the seizure in the first place.

    Oh, and then the malicious prosecution after the fact. Lovely, just lovely.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jahwarrior72 View Post
    Presume this is being talked about on PAFOA - do you have a link to the pages?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Presume this is being talked about on PAFOA - do you have a link to the pages?
    The story is now posted on DrudgeReport!!

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    abusive, evil, lying bastard cops.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jahwarrior72 View Post
    I have to say, the radio talk show host was very middle of the road, as you should be. He didn't try to make him look bad, he asked plain simple questions and didn't make any statements to the mindset. What bothers me is if you listen to the phone calls at the end of the Part 2. Every person that called in said he was a moron, or he was looking to start something. One person even said he hopes they charge him with a felony and take his guns away.

    There is a message that needs to be sent out to America, that this right is a RIGHT and your opinion of it otherwise is just that, an opinion and has no weight as to what should be done. The Law is the law, and he has the law on his side. When LEOs charge people it's said "ignorance of the law is know excuse when you break the law." Same deal in philly. But here is the crap part, the person in charge of issuing firearm permits in philly didn't know OC was legal. Let me repeat myself "ignorance of the law is no excuse." That should be a two way street, alas it isn't.

    I'm glad in NC I havn't had to deal with LEOs...yet. I don't care if you call it going Cowboy style or whatever for carrying on your hip. It's my right, I have the legal right to do it. You got a problem, go home and cry about it. I'm goin' home to have myself a lambchop and I'll be thinking of you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    ... the cops spent time calling supervisors to figure out what charges they could apply. ... If the cop didn't know the law before the seizure, he couldn't possibly have known whether he had authority to make the seizure in the first place.

    Oh, and then the malicious prosecution after the fact.
    There are "civil remedies" available to the agrieved and they can be expensive, very expensive for the cop, his supervisors, the head of the PD and the government entitiy involved.

    When suing a municipal government, it's best to start at the proverbial "top" and above all else, make sure to specify the individuals as defendants in their individual capacity(ies).

    Let "it" roll down hill - from the top to the bottom, exempt no one in the "chain of command."

    tyc
    Last edited by tyc; 05-17-2011 at 11:28 AM.

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyc View Post
    There are "civil remedies" available to the agrieved and they can be expensive, very expensive for the cop, his supervisors, the head of the PD and the government entitiy involved.

    When suing a municipal government, it's best to start at the proverbial "top" and above all else, make sure to specify the individuals as defendants in their individual capacity(ies).

    Let "it" roll down hill - from the top to the bottom, exempt no one in the "chain of command."

    tyc
    I agree, and if it happens I hope that it is followed to its conclusion with a successful trial. What I have seen too often is that a "settlement" is reached, training bulletins are issued, may or may not be any monetary fines, ruffled feathers are soothed and then we go straight back to the next time and next PD.

    It's a dilemma to say the least, some folks would like to defend this to the end, but don't have the $$ resources to get it done, seek a "pro-bono" lawyer, who they think should be as outraged and care about these violations of rights, as much as the victim, and then to do it for free, or someone sets up a "contibution" link for my defense fund to which a small amount of money gets donated....or not.

    Somehow we need to be able to develop a "body" of successful case law on a state by state basis, that can be relied upon and used going forward.

    No easy answers of course, but if put into a similar defensible position, I can only say I plan to run it to the end. The only thing "they" will seem to react to is a financial burden, an officer with a public record and a department with an electable sherriff.

    I am encouraged that Stossel has brought this to the forefront, but it's life span in the news cycle is limited to the next "big" thing....they need for viewer interest and information....which is often less than 24 hours.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brion View Post
    I have to say, the radio talk show host was very middle of the road, as you should be. He didn't try to make him look bad, he asked plain simple questions and didn't make any statements to the mindset. What bothers me is if you listen to the phone calls at the end of the Part 2. Every person that called in said he was a moron, or he was looking to start something. One person even said he hopes they charge him with a felony and take his guns away.

    There is a message that needs to be sent out to America, that this right is a RIGHT and your opinion of it otherwise is just that, an opinion and has no weight as to what should be done. The Law is the law, and he has the law on his side. When LEOs charge people it's said "ignorance of the law is know excuse when you break the law." Same deal in philly. But here is the crap part, the person in charge of issuing firearm permits in philly didn't know OC was legal. Let me repeat myself "ignorance of the law is no excuse." That should be a two way street, alas it isn't.

    I'm glad in NC I havn't had to deal with LEOs...yet. I don't care if you call it going Cowboy style or whatever for carrying on your hip. It's my right, I have the legal right to do it. You got a problem, go home and cry about it. I'm goin' home to have myself a lambchop and I'll be thinking of you.
    Ignorance of the law IS a two way street! It just cost the average citizen more money than they usualy have to pay a good pro-gun lawyer to express their grievance in Federal Court! Thats why we're here to help the citizens! 100 citizens donate $10 a piece,thats $1000 to get started!The more the better! I'm one of those who've donated several times to help in this fight against our employees,who hide behind our tax dollars when they violate their employers (the tax paying citizens)!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    I agree, and if it happens I hope that it is followed to its conclusion with a successful trial. What I have seen too often is that a "settlement" is reached, training bulletins are issued, may or may not be any monetary fines, ruffled feathers are soothed and then we go straight back to the next time and next PD.

    It's a dilemma to say the least, some folks would like to defend this to the end, but don't have the $$ resources to get it done, seek a "pro-bono" lawyer, who they think should be as outraged and care about these violations of rights, as much as the victim, and then to do it for free, or someone sets up a "contibution" link for my defense fund to which a small amount of money gets donated....or not.

    Somehow we need to be able to develop a "body" of successful case law on a state by state basis, that can be relied upon and used going forward.

    No easy answers of course, but if put into a similar defensible position, I can only say I plan to run it to the end. The only thing "they" will seem to react to is a financial burden, an officer with a public record and a department with an electable sherriff.

    I am encouraged that Stossel has brought this to the forefront, but it's life span in the news cycle is limited to the next "big" thing....they need for viewer interest and information....which is often less than 24 hours.
    True! But to do something is wiser than doing nothing! Always!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyc View Post
    There are "civil remedies" available to the agrieved and they can be expensive, very expensive for the cop, his supervisors, the head of the PD and the government entitiy involved.

    The beautiful thing about a Federal Civil Rights suit is that it ONLY costs the victim about $500 for the filing fee--ALL the other costs incurred are payed for by the US DOJ--lawyer fees, etc, because it is the Federal Government bringing the case for you.

    $500 is a lot of money for some people--especially a student, someone who is poor, or members of "oppressed minorities" which is why they set a fee on bringing such a case in the first place--to discourage poor people from bringing them. But these days, with the internet, and all the grass-roots 2A groups, raising the filing fee for a Federal 1983 suit should be easy...

    Good luck, and I hope these specific officers have to mortgage their homes over this one.
    Last edited by Dreamer; 05-19-2011 at 11:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    ... some folks would like to defend this to the end, but don't have the $$ resources to get it done, seek a "pro-bono" lawyer, who they think should be as outraged and care about these violations of rights, as much as the victim, and then to do it for free, or someone sets up a "contibution" link for my defense fund to which a small amount of money gets donated....or not.

    Somehow we need to be able to develop a "body" of successful case law on a state by state basis, that can be relied upon and used going forward.
    It is not reasonable to expect that pro-bono assistance would be as deterined nor as diligent as that of the individual agrieved party, who at present may not have the skills needed to bring forward such an action..

    As for developing a body of case law, state by state or otherwise odds are that a good bit of the case law in question already exists and is available today by way of the Internet. It is probably already available by way of a private funded web page but the downside to this is essentially in two parts; (1) most attornys are too ignorant of or too lazy with regard to the full utilization of the Internet in the search for case law, and (2) so is/are the aggrieved party/ies. This may as well apply to the potential defendant(s) and his/her legal counsel.

    The "trick" is find the applicable case law and have it readily available, when and if needed. As such it will probably be done on a case by case basis as individuals poking around on the Internet just happen come across specific case law. In the case of this specific OC website; see the "sticky" heading as offered in the legal forum. There is a slew of legal "head candy" avialable to one and all, right now, right here.

    In this day and age, if you can use a computer and have interest and the time, regardless of the specific area of law (civil or criminal) which may be of interest to you, begin to set up a data base on that part of US and Commonwealth law which is of interest to you. Set up your own filing system as to where each and every case of settled law you come across should go (zoning, US Amendments, Term Limits, Pro-Se, etc., what ever works for you) and enter - as you see it - the applicable case law in it's entirety into that sub-directory. Note: Expect some case law to be applicable for more than one directory or sub-directory. Just set up the filing system so that you, the owner of the files, can get at the applicable case law whenever you want at it. Once you've "captured" a given decision, again in it's entirety, when reviewing it, when you come across a comment/passage of interest, highlight it or mark it up any which way you want so you can quickly find it again; because and as you may find out, there is so much of it now available, sometimes this is a lot easier said than done.

    tyc
    Last edited by tyc; 05-18-2011 at 04:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyc View Post
    There are "civil remedies" available to the agrieved and they can be expensive, very expensive for the cop, his supervisors, the head of the PD and the government entitiy involved.

    When suing a municipal government, it's best to start at the proverbial "top" and above all else, make sure to specify the individuals as defendants in their individual capacity(ies).

    Let "it" roll down hill - from the top to the bottom, exempt no one in the "chain of command."

    tyc
    Yes, the civil remedies can be very expensive to the rights violators.

    But, we don't have tons of everyday little rights violations because civil remedies are always expensive to the rights violators. The cops know what they can usually get away with because it is too expensive to pursue remedies, even if clear cut, nearly irrefutable evidence existed, when too often its just the cop's word against the victim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Yes, the civil remedies can be very expensive to the rights violators.

    But, we don't have tons of everyday little rights violations because civil remedies are always expensive to the rights violators. The cops know what they can usually get away with because it is too expensive to pursue remedies, even if clear cut, nearly irrefutable evidence existed, when too often its just the cop's word against the victim.
    He said, she said can be made to be heard/seen a bit more clearly.

    Would you prefer to review the voice recording or the video first?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Presume this is being talked about on PAFOA - do you have a link to the pages?

    I hope you don't have any plans for a few days...

    The original incident... http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...pen-carry.html

    The Fund-Raiser... http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...sponsible.html

    Viper's (Mark's) Thank You thread... http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...-everyone.html

    And the OC Rally/March/Protest thread... http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...k-example.html

    And...

    http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...k-example.html

    http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...r-article.html

    Happy reading! That's roughly 3400 posts total going back to February.
    .
    While many claim to support the right to keep and bear arms, precious few support the practice.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    I hope you don't have any plans for a few days...

    Happy reading! That's roughly 3400 posts total going back to February.
    .
    Indeed it is a busy place with a lot of support - really great group of guys and gals.
    Strong leadership, dedicated members, wealth of knowledge and teamwork that is seldom equaled.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    ... The cops know what they can usually get away with because it is too expensive to pursue remedies, even if clear cut, nearly irrefutable evidence existed,
    ... when too often its just the cop's word against the victim.
    Keep in mind, most cops are not bad people but also keep in mind they do get to see all too often the worst side of human brutalilty and depravity. One does not take a cop who has been involved in drug undercover work for the past five years and the next day assign the individual to act as a school crossing guard for pre-schoolers.

    As for expense, ".. even if clear cut, nearly irrefutable evidence ..." exhists (and it will most likely be refuted anyway) after filing a criminal complaint with the district attorney's office, the cost(s) to initiate a civil action against the individual(s) can be zero if the aggrieved can demonstrate he/she can't afford competent legal counsel but can - reasonably - demonstrate that he/she has a case. With an eye aimed directly at equal justice for one and all, the Courts have been and are prepared for such events. You don't need money to sue when "public servants" misbehave, you just have to be angry enough to do it - just make sure you're right. If there's any doubt - don't start. Remember, government exists for the convience of the governed and for no other reason.

    Also keep in mind, as far as the aggrieved is concerned, at the time of encounter with incompetent or unlawful law enforcement, complete and total silence on the part of the aggrieved is not an admission of, nor is it evidence of, guilt; i.e., stay alert, make mental notes of who, what, when, where - but keep your mouth shut!

    tyc
    Last edited by tyc; 05-20-2011 at 12:25 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyc View Post
    Keep in mind, most cops are not bad people but also keep in mind they do get to see all too often the worst side of human brutalilty and depravity. One does not take a cop who has been involved in drug undercover work for the past five years and the next day assign the individual to act as a school crossing guard for pre-schoolers.

    As for expense, ".. even if clear cut, nearly irrefutable evidence ..." exhists (and it will most likely be refuted anyway) after filing a criminal complaint with the district attorney's office, the cost(s) to initiate a civil action against the individual(s) can be zero if the aggrieved can demonstrate he/she can't afford competent legal counsel but can - reasonably - demonstrate that he/she has a case. With an eye aimed directly at equal justice for one and all, the Courts have been and are prepared for such events. You don't need money to sue when "public servants" misbehave, you just have to be angry enough to do it - just make sure you're right. If there's any doubt - don't start. Remember, government exists for the convience of the governed and for no other reason.

    Also keep in mind, as far as the aggrieved is concerned, at the time of encounter with incompetent or unlawful law enforcement, complete and total silence on the part of the aggrieved is not an admission of, nor is it evidence of, guilt' i.e., stay alert, make mental notes of who, what, when, where - but keep your mouth shut!

    tyc
    I have never heard of such, but maybe I've been living in a cave. Pro Bono or court appointed attorney in a civil case? Maybe if you've got an extremely strong case they might take it on a contingency, but IMO never free.

    Criminal charges and civil action are two completely different animals.

    Is there a cite that you can provide for your state?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I have never heard of such, but maybe I've been living in a cave. Pro Bono or court appointed attorney in a civil case? Maybe if you've got an extremely strong case they might take it on a contingency, but IMO never free.

    Criminal charges and civil action are two completely different animals.

    Is there a cite that you can provide for your state?
    You are correct. Civil and Criminal actions "... are two completely different animals" however you may have mistaken what I recently offered.

    At all times is must be understood, in the Commonwalth, If you are not an attorney, except in the case of your own criminal defense, you may not engage in the practice of criminal law.

    However, that you are a member of the PA BAR or not, if you are the victim of criminal activity, It does not cost anything to file a criminal complaint with the office of the appropriate District Attorney. That he/she may or may not, for any reason they choose, elect to NOT pursue your claim, that is up to him/her. In such an instance, if there is incompetency or criminal intent on the part of the applicable District Attorney when making a decision not to prosecute, that is where the Office of the Attorney General of the Commonwealth comes into play.

    The practice of Civil Law is a different matter and Pro Bono activity on the part of duly licensed attorney (in Pennsylvania and elsewhere) is far from being unknown. However, excluding abuse of the system, anyone (licensed attorney or not) may initiate a civil action and do so at no cost - if the individual intending to bring about the action can verify he/she can not afford the court costs involved. Of course you will be asked by the Court to confirm such a claim in writing, i.e., that you can't afford the costs to bring the case forward - and you'd better not be lying when you sign that "forma paupurus" statement; think I mis-spelled that.. Once such a document is signed and received by the Court, the case will be brought forward for a hearing. That you win or lose is up to you and the presentation you as a Pro Se make. I do offer however, if you do not know what you're doing - back off. Go get some good basic advice on how to proceed first, then, if your laches haven't run out - go get 'em.

    As for the citation, I don't have it right off hand but check the Internet for the following or words to the effect: "... silence is not an admission of guilt ..."

    Hope this helps.

    tyc
    Last edited by tyc; 05-21-2011 at 11:40 AM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyc View Post
    .......... anyone (licensed attorney or not) may initiate a civil action and do so at no cost - if the individual intending to bring about the action can verify he/she can not afford the court costs involved. Of course you will be asked by the Court to confirm such a claim in writing, i.e., that you can't afford the costs to bring the case forward - and you'd better not be lying when you sign that "forma paupurus" statement; think I mis-spelled that.. Once such a document is signed and received by the Court, the case will be brought forward for a hearing.
    Hope this helps.

    tyc
    Forgot about the PA allowance for "forma pauperis" - appreciate the reminder.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    EVERY public statement made by the Philly PD and the prosecutor has just dug the hole deeper. They contradict each other, alleged policy, and PA law six ways to Sunday.

    When you find yourself in a hole, the LAST thing you should be doing is trying to rent a backhoe.

    The malicious prosecution suit is going to be UGLY.

    Viper needs to start referring to the prosecutor as "Mr. Nifong"...

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    Congrats on publicity and good luck on the suit.

    The work and stress you're enduring is making Pennsylvania, and maybe even the entire nation, a more gun-friendly place by warning the gun-hating Nazis that there may be severe, expensive consequences to oppressive, unlawful acts.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post

    Viper needs to start referring to the prosecutor as "Mr. Nifong"...

    +10000000000000000

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