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Thread: Transport question

  1. #1
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Transport question

    It came to my attention that MSP update #86 has this verbage: "There is no way to “open carry” a pistol in a vehicle. An individual, without a CPL or otherwise exempted (e.g., a police officer), who transports a pistol in a vehicle to an area where he or she intends to “open carry” may be in violation of MCL 750.227."

    Is the list of "lawful reasons" that "INCLUDES" all inclusive, or just a partial list? It says transport for lawful purposes "including".... obviously there are no exclusions, but I am rethinking the logic or standpoint that "even if it's not on the list it should be fine as long as it's a legal reason..."



    Now MCL 750.231a subsection 2(b)(vii) states: While en route to or from his or her abode to a private property location where the pistol is to be used as is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

    But that's talking about PRIVATE property... not going to OC...

    I suppose it's all in what you say to the cops, but seriously sounds like you could get jammed up easy if they wanted to....

    Of course, they have to know you have a weapon being transported...etc... Which would probably mean you already screwed something up or a few things up for them to discover your weapon... long way for them to get to the point of charges... but sounds like they could.

    What do you people think?

  2. #2
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Good question, we have discussed it previously.

    My take (and short answer): The list is not all-inclusive.

    Just one more reason to NOT TALK TO THE POLICE.

    LEO: "Where are you coming from? Where are you going to?"

    Person: "Officer, I do not wish to discuss my itinerary."

    LEO: "What's in the vehicle?"

    Person: "Officer, I do not wish to discuss that."

    LEO: "I am going to have to search your vehicle."

    Person: "Officer, I do not consent to any searches."

    WASH-RINSE-REPEAT handles this quite well.
    Last edited by PDinDetroit; 05-17-2011 at 09:12 AM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Yes, and I feel fairly comfortable with the wash-rinse-repeat.... but I guess in the transition from transport to OC, things could get a bit dicey if you were approached...

    me: *click* *rack* *holster* *slam door*

    Cop: "what are you doing there?"

    me: "uhhhhh...."



    A situation where you can't hide behind wash-rinse-repeat for searches because you're already hung out there... I guess I still would go with "am I being detained?" "Am I free to go?" and if not, then clam up?

  4. #4
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HKcarrier View Post
    Yes, and I feel fairly comfortable with the wash-rinse-repeat.... but I guess in the transition from transport to OC, things could get a bit dicey if you were approached...

    me: *click* *rack* *holster* *slam door*

    Cop: "what are you doing there?"

    me: "uhhhhh...."

    A situation where you can't hide behind wash-rinse-repeat for searches because you're already hung out there... I guess I still would go with "am I being detained?" "Am I free to go?" and if not, then clam up?
    Good answer! You can always use WASH-RINSE-REPEAT.

    While "officer safety" could be employed, AFAIK the only legal way to search your vehicle would be pursuant to Arrest or with a Search Warrant. With Terry v Ohio at play, a man with a gun does not rise to the level of Reasonable Suspicion nor Probable Cause.
    Last edited by PDinDetroit; 05-17-2011 at 10:40 AM.

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    IANAL The word INCLUDES, as found in 231a is key here. Since Open carry isnt illegal, then by default, it is legal.

    To add to what PD said, when the officer asks if there is anything illegal in the car, you could respond with, "No sir/ma'am, there is nothing illegal in the car".

    I had to discuss this with an OCSD one evening, I had an empty holster on, which prompted the officer to inquire the location of the gun. Since I had to tell him, he got into the why I had the gun. I happened to have 231a with me, and when I pointed out to him that it was not an all inclusive list, he went to his super, and I was eventually let go, with my gun.

    NOT a comfortable conversation. Without God, luck, the printed law, and a super that knew what they were doing, Ida been screwed.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    IANAL The word INCLUDES, as found in 231a is key here. Since Open carry isnt illegal, then by default, it is legal.

    To add to what PD said, when the officer asks if there is anything illegal in the car, you could respond with, "No sir/ma'am, there is nothing illegal in the car".

    I had to discuss this with an OCSD one evening, I had an empty holster on, which prompted the officer to inquire the location of the gun. Since I had to tell him, he got into the why I had the gun. I happened to have 231a with me, and when I pointed out to him that it was not an all inclusive list, he went to his super, and I was eventually let go, with my gun.

    NOT a comfortable conversation. Without God, luck, the printed law, and a super that knew what they were doing, Ida been screwed.
    I am not sure I would say even that. If they do find "something", then you get hit for it and for lying to the police. Better to say nothing...

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    I wasnt talking about lying at all, this is about a lawfully possessed and transported firearm. Since you're not CC under a CPL, there is no duty to disclose, and none of the officers business what's in the car.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    I don't think PD meant that you might be lying. I think he meant that what if the officer gets a warrant and finds something in your car that is illegal that you didn't know was there or that you didn't know was illegal?

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Ok. I wanted to be clear.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    I don't think PD meant that you might be lying. I think he meant that what if the officer gets a warrant and finds something in your car that is illegal that you didn't know was there or that you didn't know was illegal?

    Bronson
    Precisely.

  11. #11
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    That's what I"m talking about... something like the holster... how do you explain something like that away without giving yourself away.. tough stuff...

    The whole thing of it being PRINTED IN UPDATE 86 "transporting for OC -may- be in violation" is freaking me out a bit...

    I'm going to be getting my CPL soon though, so that's good... (not happy about bowing down but what can I do) but in the meantime I don't want to go without being able to carry... but I dont' know if i can risk getting jammed up.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HKcarrier View Post
    That's what I"m talking about... something like the holster... how do you explain something like that away without giving yourself away.. tough stuff...

    The whole thing of it being PRINTED IN UPDATE 86 "transporting for OC -may- be in violation" is freaking me out a bit...

    I'm going to be getting my CPL soon though, so that's good... (not happy about bowing down but what can I do) but in the meantime I don't want to go without being able to carry... but I dont' know if i can risk getting jammed up.
    Nothing to explain if you are sticking to WASH-RINSE-REPEAT.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HKcarrier View Post
    That's what I"m talking about... something like the holster... how do you explain something like that away without giving yourself away.. tough stuff...

    The whole thing of it being PRINTED IN UPDATE 86 "transporting for OC -may- be in violation" is freaking me out a bit...

    I'm going to be getting my CPL soon though, so that's good... (not happy about bowing down but what can I do) but in the meantime I don't want to go without being able to carry... but I dont' know if i can risk getting jammed up.
    This is in reference to carrying a concealed weapon and has nothing to do with transporting, other than having a loaded or improperly stowed firearm in a vehicle. It also goes on to say that a concealed weapon on your person may be a felony. Read it again closely.

    There is no way to "open carry" a pistol in a vehicle. An individual, without a CPL or otherwise exempted (e.g., a police officer), who transports a pistol in a vehicle to an area where he or she intends to "open carry" may be in violation of MCL 750.227.

    Carrying concealed weapons
    MCL 750.227 also makes it a felony for a person to carry a concealed pistol on or about his or her person unless the person is exempt under MCL 750.231 or MCL 750.231a. Complete invisibility is not required. The carrying of a pistol in a holster or belt outside the clothing is not carrying a concealed weapon. Carrying a pistol under a coat is carrying a concealed weapon. Op. Atty. Gen. 1945, O-3158. According to the Court of Appeals in People v. Reynolds, a weapon is concealed if it is not observed by those casually observing the suspect as people do in the ordinary course and usual associations of life. 38 Mich App. 159 (1970).
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HKcarrier View Post
    That's what I"m talking about... something like the holster... how do you explain something like that away without giving yourself away.. tough stuff...

    The whole thing of it being PRINTED IN UPDATE 86 "transporting for OC -may- be in violation" is freaking me out a bit...

    I'm going to be getting my CPL soon though, so that's good... (not happy about bowing down but what can I do) but in the meantime I don't want to go without being able to carry... but I dont' know if i can risk getting jammed up.
    Ok... I'm aware that the natural action would be to leave the gun inside the car on the seat or something or inside the trunk somewhat out of sight while preparing it to carry... but...

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...me=mcl-750-227

    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931


    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.

    Sec. 227.

    -snip-
    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    -snip-


    Does this mean that a person who does not have a CPL but is standing alongside (outside of) a vehicle (vehicle not actually "occupied") reaching inside the vehicle (onto the seat or inside the trunk) in order to uncase/load/and then holster is legal? Or not?

    Gun inside, person outside, person reaching inside and touching gun inside the vehicle.

    I personally am not clear on that one but advise folks to not take the chance and to leave the gun in the case and take the case completely out of the vehicle and then uncase/load/holster simply because I would hate to have a non CPL holder get jammed up simply because the gun was inside the vehicle while they were preparing it to be holstered and legally carried.

    But if someone is more clear on this than I, and I didn't stay at Holiday Inn last night either, please jump in on this?

    We need gun laws written in plain language with an eye to continuity of meaning............ Oh... and at my age large print wouldn't be a bad idea either.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    An individual, without a CPL or otherwise exempted (e.g., a police officer), who transports a pistol in a vehicle to an area where he or she intends to "open carry" may be in violation of [B][SIZE=4]MCL 750.227.
    This is the part that has me confused... it says "person without CPL who transports a pistol in a vehicle"... is that just me being confused by the verbage and use of the word transport?

    Sounds to me like something they could use to jam you up... but that portion is not actually in a law is it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post

    Does this mean that a person who does not have a CPL but is standing alongside (outside of) a vehicle (vehicle not actually "occupied") reaching inside the vehicle (onto the seat or inside the trunk) in order to uncase/load/and then holster is legal? Or not?

    Gun inside, person outside, person reaching inside and touching gun inside the vehicle.


    I was told that this was a no-no... when switching from transport mode to OC, the gun and person must be OUTSIDE of the vehicle... I have a truck, and it was discussed that even in the bed of the truck would be considered INSIDE. Additionally, there is a possibility that standing inbetween the doors (I have a cab and a half with the back doors that open suicide) could constitute being INSIDE the vehicle... therefore, it was determined my best course of action would be to utilize an out of the way parking spot, or back into a spot and use the rear bumper as a place for the transition from transport to OC... (to avoid sending any soccer mom's screaming)
    Last edited by HKcarrier; 05-17-2011 at 05:04 PM.

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    Transportation would be covered under 231a, in the "includes" list.

    I don't see how you could be charged by being next to an open door or two, its pretty hard to convince me, (or a jury), that you could be both standing on the pavement, and inside the vehicle at the same time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKcarrier View Post
    This is the part that has me confused... it says "person without CPL who transports a pistol in a vehicle"... is that just me being confused by the verbage and use of the word transport?

    Sounds to me like something they could use to jam you up... but that portion is not actually in a law is it?





    I was told that this was a no-no... when switching from transport mode to OC, the gun and person must be OUTSIDE of the vehicle... I have a truck, and it was discussed that even in the bed of the truck would be considered INSIDE. Additionally, there is a possibility that standing inbetween the doors (I have a cab and a half with the back doors that open suicide) could constitute being INSIDE the vehicle... therefore, it was determined my best course of action would be to utilize an out of the way parking spot, or back into a spot and use the rear bumper as a place for the transition from transport to OC... (to avoid sending any soccer mom's screaming)
    You have a Pickup Truck, Put your gun in a gun case behind the passenger seat, to be safe put a lock on it.
    when you exit your truck, remove the gun case to the outside and there you go. Yea what a hassle, till you get your cpl.
    MCL 750.231a A person is now permitted to transport a pistol for a lawful purpose if the owner or occupant of the vehicle is the registered owner of the firearm and the pistol is unloaded and in a closed case in the trunk of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the pistol may be in the passenger compartment of the vehicle unloaded and inaccessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Transportation would be covered under 231a, in the "includes" list.

    I don't see how you could be charged by being next to an open door or two, its pretty hard to convince me, (or a jury), that you could be both standing on the pavement, and inside the vehicle at the same time.
    But Stainless... it isn't just where you are standing... it is where the gun is (inside the vehicle where it is only legal in "transport mode" without a CPL) and your hands are on the gun inside the vehicle busy taking the gun out of "transport mode" while the gun is still inside the vehicle.

    A cop could say you were in possession of a gun that was not in transport mode inside a vehicle without a CPL.... even though you were standing outside... but your hands were holding a gun with both gun and hands still inside the vehicle.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  19. #19
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HKcarrier View Post
    This is the part that has me confused... it says "person without CPL who transports a pistol in a vehicle"... is that just me being confused by the verbage and use of the word transport? )
    You are just being confused. It's clear if you read it and put it in context of the entire paragraph. I will admit it's not written that well.

    What they are trying to say is you could get in trouble IF you transport a gun in a car IF you forget to unload and stow it according to the law, IF you don't have a CPL.

    They do not reference the transport law that you are looking at...the includes to or from....
    they reference the concealed law. So as long as you have the firearm unloaded in a case and stored correctly you can then transport it almost anywhere.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  20. #20
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    You are just being confused. It's clear if you read it and put it in context of the entire paragraph. I will admit it's not written that well.

    What they are trying to say is you could get in trouble IF you transport a gun in a car IF you forget to unload and stow it according to the law, IF you don't have a CPL.

    They do not reference the transport law that you are looking at...the includes to or from....
    they reference the concealed law. So as long as you have the firearm unloaded in a case and stored correctly you can then transport it almost anywhere.
    Ok... there's the answer I was looking for... yes, the fact that it references the CC law tells me that what you said is correct. I didn't see that before.

    Thanks for the help.




    GORT: I already understand that part of the law... but thanks anyways for the clarification.
    Last edited by HKcarrier; 05-17-2011 at 08:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    But Stainless... it isn't just where you are standing... it is where the gun is (inside the vehicle where it is only legal in "transport mode" without a CPL) and your hands are on the gun inside the vehicle busy taking the gun out of "transport mode" while the gun is still inside the vehicle.

    A cop could say you were in possession of a gun that was not in transport mode inside a vehicle without a CPL.... even though you were standing outside... but your hands were holding a gun with both gun and hands still inside the vehicle.
    That's correct, I should have been more specific. I guess I was speaking from my experiences, in that I had always cased and uncased from outside the vehicle. I was always very careful about that, Melissa explained that to me specifically, so I never crossed the cars threshold unless the gun was cased.

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