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Thread: Police Chief Noble Wray wants safeguards before concealed carry is law

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Police Chief Noble Wray wants safeguards before concealed carry is law

    From today's Capitol Times....
    http://host.madison.com/ct/news/loca...cc4c03286.html

    Earlier this month, state lawmakers introduced two bills that would allow people to carry concealed firearms in Wisconsin, currently one of only two states that ban them. Law enforcement officials have concerns. Neither proposal would require gun carriers to undergo training. And while one bill would require that people obtain permits through the state Department of Justice, the other would not require gun carriers to obtain a license, which would make the concealed carry law in Wisconsin among the least restrictive in the nation.

    Both proposals would ease restrictions on where citizens could go armed.

    With Republicans in complete charge of state government, Madison Police Chief Noble Wray is resigned to the fact that concealed carry, in some form, is inevitable. But he wants safeguards in place. What follows is an edited transcript of an interview with him on the topic by Steven Elbow of The Capital Times.

    Capital Times: What are your main concerns about the concealed carry proposals in the state Legislature?

    Noble Wray: We believe the permitting process is vitally important. But along with the permitting process, we need some way through the Department of Transportation that an officer can confirm if someone does have a permit. The more information you know, the safer you’re not only going to feel, but the safer everyone is going to be in that encounter.

    CT: There was a subsequent proposal to require carriers to undergo two hours of training. Is that enough?

    NW: We were one of the first law enforcement agencies in the state of Wisconsin to implement concealed carry for retired police officers. And even with veteran, trained, retired police officers we require certification and training on an annual basis. I think there needs to be some period of time where there is a refresher course, some reorientation, some instruction, because even as a trained law enforcement officer, if you’re not using it for a while, things change. There are updates about certain things, the capacity of a weapon, the nomenclature of the weapon, current trends as they relate to weapons.

    CT: Both proposals remove the 1,000-foot gun-free zone around school properties. Is there a problem with that?

    NW: We’re dealing with a demographic where if you send a message that it’s OK for school zones, that could be problematic. I would consider a school zone a sacred area, a sensitive area.

    CT: The bills also appear to lift prohibitions against going armed in taverns. What are your thoughts on that?

    NW: One of the elements we use in determining reckless use of a firearm is the level of intoxication of a person who’s in possession of one and using it. Alcohol and a firearm is a dangerous mix.

    CT: The bills also specifically lift prohibitions against driving with access to a loaded weapon. Is that a problem?

    NW: That one I could see, because from a law enforcement standpoint we should always approach a car with due regard for safety and care. If you’re going to carry concealed and people travel in automobiles, it’s only a natural step that they would be carrying in a vehicle.

    CT: Is concealed carry more problematic in some areas than in others?

    NW: I think anytime you have a densely populated area and a high-crime area in an urban setting, it’s going to create more problems and complexities in trying to maintain safety when you’re introducing more firearms into a situation like that.

    CT: What do you think of the argument that arming law-abiding citizens increases public safety?

    NW: I can’t say that I agree or disagree with that. I have not seen any proof that would demonstrate that. If you look at the crime data you can get it where it shows one way or the other.

    CT: Would concealed carry make it less safe for the officer on the street?

    NW: In 2010, 162 law enforcement officers were killed in the line of duty (nationally), a 40 percent increase from 2009. Of the ones that were killed in 2010, 61 were killed by firearms, a 24 percent increase. I’m not here to say that this is the work of law-abiding citizens. I’m not trying to make that connection. But the more we are dealing with firearms and encounters, if we’re going to have concealed carry we want to do it in the safest manner possible.

    CT: But in all likelihood, lifting the ban on concealed carry would increase the number of guns on the street, which would increase the potential for police encounters with armed citizens, correct?

    NW: That is a challenge of policing a free society. The people who want more access to being able to carry concealed weapons, I have no doubt that the majority of them are law-abiding citizens. But contained within our cities are people who are not law-abiding citizens. We’re trying to strike that balance where law-abiding citizens can have access to their constitutional rights, but those who are going to use guns in manners that are detrimental to society can be held accountable.

    CT: Do you think Americans are too fixated on guns?

    NW: I would say “yes” from this standpoint: With the evolution of Tasers and things like that, 15 or 20 years from now we may be looking at other technologies that will keep someone safe and not have as much of a destructive impact on the person you’re trying to stop. I think the technology is out there, I think that the understanding of how to create systems to defend yourself without creating so much destruction is probably out there, but we’re really preoccupied with the gun.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

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    McX
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    Knobby still got a jobby? surprised me.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock34 View Post

    NW: I think that the understanding of how to create systems to defend yourself without creating so much destruction is probably out there,
    Translation: Noble Way can kill you with his mind.


    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Translation: Noble Way can kill you with his mind.


    Talk about a blunt instrument....
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Regular Member Big Dipper's Avatar
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    NW: ... I would consider a school zone a sacred area, a sensitive area.


    I would love to hear his explanation as to why 999.5 feet is a "sacred area" and 1,000.5 feet isn't.

    Plus, I would bet he doesn't even know where all of the GFSZs in Madison start and end, even though they are "sensitive". Perhaps he needs some additional "sensitivity training".

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    Talk about a blunt instrument....


    He's bore you to death with his stale breath and completely uninspiring rhetoric. His fake bravado will usurp your soul and crush your dreams. Bureaucratic lightning bolts shoot from his fingertips. The blueish hued bolts will numb your reality to the point that Vogon poetry suddenly sounds like a good idea. This is the defense system of Top Cop Noble Way.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 05-17-2011 at 11:53 AM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member 64Impala's Avatar
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    "CT: The bills also appear to lift prohibitions against going armed in taverns. What are your thoughts on that?

    NW: One of the elements we use in determining reckless use of a firearm is the level of intoxication of a person who’s in possession of one and using it. Alcohol and a firearm is a dangerous mix."

    REALLY???!!!??

    Isn't an automobile and alcohol also a dangerous mix? We don't stop people from going into taverns because they are driving.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    The Madison violent crime rate is 152% greater than the Wisconsin average and 11% greater than the national average. The Madison property crime rate is 33% greater than the Wisconsin average and 13% greater than the national average. Overall, the Madison, WI crime index is 40% greater than the Wisconsin average and 13% greater than the national average.

    http://www.areavibes.com/madison-wi/crime/


    Top Cop Noble Way, a bureaucrat who can't police his own yard, thinks his opinions are somehow relevant.

    You would think one of his close friends would take him gently by the arm and tell him how he is embarrassing himself.


    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    The Madison violent crime rate is 152% greater than the Wisconsin average and 11% greater than the national average. The Madison property crime rate is 33% greater than the Wisconsin average and 13% greater than the national average. Overall, the Madison, WI crime index is 40% greater than the Wisconsin average and 13% greater than the national average.

    http://www.areavibes.com/madison-wi/crime/


    Top Cop Noble Way, a bureaucrat who can't police his own yard, thinks his opinions are somehow relevant.

    You would think one of his close friends would take him gently by the arm and tell him how he is embarrassing himself.


    Shhh, don't let the facts speak...

    Wray is a nob.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Wray: We believe the permitting process is vitally important.... we need some way through the DOT that an officer can confirm if someone does have a permit. The more information you know, the safer you’re not only going to feel, but the safer everyone is going to be in that encounter.
    He seems to be saying that officers who know someone has a permit would "feel" safer around that person.
    Because surely he's read reports from other states w/ concealed carry that say lawful carriers commit crimes at a rate lower than off-duty police.
    Or am I reading that wrong? Maybe they'd actually treat carriers (or people with a permit) more harshly... which is why there's a prohibition & penalty for officers doing just that.

    two hours of training. Is that enough?
    NW: even as a trained law enforcement officer, if you’re not using it for a while, things change. There are updates about certain things, the capacity of a weapon, the nomenclature of the weapon, current trends as they relate to weapons.
    Hmmm... so if I'm using the same pistol I've used for the last 4 years, & it's time to renew my permit, I have to take another "this is a gun" course because the parts are called by different names & the magazine capacity changed? (No, really, they don't change.)
    How do those fictional changes affect my ability to use that tool to defend myself?

    NW: I would consider a school zone a sacred area, a sensitive area.
    Doesn't matter what he thinks. What matters is anything that stops criminals from committing crimes, and the "GF"SZ doesn't.

    CT: The bills also appear to lift prohibitions against going armed in taverns.
    NW: Alcohol and a firearm is a dangerous mix.
    But not illegal unless you're "materially impaired".
    And people have been known to have a meal at a place that serves alcohol and not drink any.

    NW: ... [LEO] should always approach a car with due regard for safety and care.
    LOL! Looks like he got burned by a stupid answer to that before.
    He's not going to come out & admit that his officers would treat people with permits more harshly, though we all know that's what the orders would be.

    CT: What do you think of the argument that arming law-abiding citizens increases public safety?
    NW: I have not seen any proof that would demonstrate that.
    So he needs to read his professional publications, & pay attention to what's been happening in other states.

    CT: Would concealed carry make it less safe for the officer on the street?
    NW: (avoids answering)
    The word you want there is "no".

    NW: We’re trying to strike that balance where law-abiding citizens can have access to their constitutional rights, but those who are going to use guns in manners that are detrimental to society can be held accountable.
    So do your job & catch criminals after they've committed crimes. Then get the courts to punish them.
    Meanwhile, people who aren't criminals can go on exercising their rights.
    That's a good balance.

    NW: With the evolution of Tasers and things like that, 15 or 20 years from now we may be looking at other technologies that will keep someone safe and not have as much of a destructive impact on the person you’re trying to stop.
    Police have a very different job, trying to stop & control criminals with the minimum damage possible. They also have backup.
    If someone's trying to kill me, I don't care how much of a "destructive impact" my choice of defense has on him - I want to be able to stop the attack before I get hurt (worse).

  11. #11
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    He's bore you to death with his stale breath and completely uninspiring rhetoric. His fake bravado will usurp your soul and crush your dreams. Bureaucratic lightning bolts shoot from his fingertips. The blueish hued bolts will numb your reality to the point that Vogon poetry suddenly sounds like a good idea. This is the defense system of Top Cop Noble Way.
    Too funny. You need to start a blog.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  12. #12
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    The Madison violent crime rate is 152% greater than the Wisconsin average and 11% greater than the national average. The Madison property crime rate is 33% greater than the Wisconsin average and 13% greater than the national average. Overall, the Madison, WI crime index is 40% greater than the Wisconsin average and 13% greater than the national average.

    http://www.areavibes.com/madison-wi/crime/


    Top Cop Noble Way, a bureaucrat who can't police his own yard, thinks his opinions are somehow relevant.

    You would think one of his close friends would take him gently by the arm and tell him how he is embarrassing himself.


    Damn, I can't stop laughing.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Regular Member XDFDE45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock34 View Post
    CT: What do you think of the argument that arming law-abiding citizens increases public safety?

    NW: I can’t say that I agree or disagree with that. I have not seen any proof that would demonstrate that. If you look at the crime data you can get it where it shows one way or the other.
    Nothing like willful ignorance . Do none of these people read the statistics from the FBI/DOJ? Have they not read John Lott's book which is in its 3rd edition?
    Wisconsin Carry Member
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    McX
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    some channels are blocked out on Knobby-vision.

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    Regular Member oliverclotheshoff's Avatar
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    NW: With the evolution of Tasers and things like that, 15 or 20 years from now we may be looking at other technologies that will keep someone safe and not have as much of a destructive impact on the person you’re trying to stop.

    hey knobby tasers are illegal pull your head of of your a _ _
    SCOTT

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    He is a Moron !
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    I felt his answers were quite unimpressive on every level.
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    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’— Thomas Jefferson

    Member of NRA, GOA, WCI

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    Regular Member Da Po-lock's Avatar
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    This clown can be a real asset to us. I think when some people who are still undecided hear what this fool has to say, they will actually support our cause. When they hear someone who thinks their word carrys weight speak such stupidity they may see through this anti BS real quick.

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    Unfortunately, the uninformed masses will not know he speaks foolishly. Even Fudd type gun owners might believe him, simply because they are not involved in the process of protecting their rights.

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