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Thread: Fighting dirty?

  1. #1
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    Fighting dirty?

    I don't know how many of us have thought about this, so I thought I'd bring it up.

    How hard and dirty are you willing to fight in a street fight? Do you adjust your level of "fight" based on perceived threat? Are you unwilling to fight dirty? Do you train to fight or defend yourself with something other than a firearm, or at least to get to your gun?

    I know for me, if I feel threatened I have no qualms about fighting dirty. I don't think twice about the old groin kick/punch, eye gouge, biting etc... If you're going to attack me you better be willing to accept some serious pain in return, cuz I'm in it to win, not to look good doing it.

    This is assuming you can't get to a firearm or don't have one with you.

    I posted this here, assuming that general discussion wasn't quite right.

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irish52084 View Post
    I don't know how many of us have thought about this, so I thought I'd bring it up.

    How hard and dirty are you willing to fight in a street fight? Do you adjust your level of "fight" based on perceived threat? Are you unwilling to fight dirty? Do you train to fight or defend yourself with something other than a firearm, or at least to get to your gun?

    I train to fight with my pistol to get to my rifle.

    I know for me, if I feel threatened I have no qualms about fighting dirty. I don't think twice about the old groin kick/punch, eye gouge, biting etc... If you're going to attack me you better be willing to accept some serious pain in return, cuz I'm in it to win, not to look good doing it.

    If someone is an imminent threat, all bets are off. I dislike violence and pain. So as soon as violence is inevitable as much force as can (legally) be brought to bear will be used to prevent pain on my part, and cease the violence of the aggressor.

    This is assuming you can't get to a firearm or don't have one with you.

    I posted this here, assuming that general discussion wasn't quite right.
    I almost ALWAYS have a gun within several feet. I work with them so no matter what they're available. If some sociopath managed to get between, I usually have a knife, multi-tool or flashlight handy too. Lacking any of those I'll find something laying around. There's nothing "fair" about forcing me into a situation I would prefer not to be in.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irish52084 View Post
    I know for me, if I feel threatened I have no qualms about fighting dirty. I don't think twice about the old groin kick/punch, eye gouge, biting etc... If you're going to attack me you better be willing to accept some serious pain in return, cuz I'm in it to win, not to look good doing it.

    This is assuming you can't get to a firearm or don't have one with you.

    I posted this here, assuming that general discussion wasn't quite right.
    If your opponent is armed things will be happening too quickly to make 'decisions' about how you're fighting. You will revert to your training. Since it's pretty difficult to 'train' biting and groin kicking you won't be likely to go to that when you go on auto and are fighting to stay alive. We like to think about 'going berserk' and biting and kicking but that's not what happens. You fight like you train.

    Often that very training, and inability to adapt can get us in trouble. In simulated knife attacks, many LEOs can't make space enough to draw their piece and get 'killed' time and again. They instinctively reach for their holster and suddenly they are one arm against two with a knife, they get over-run, fall down and are 'dead'.

    The perfect training formula isn't easy to come by, but it must include footwork (movement), or getting off the 'x', progressive resistance (energy), timing, and unrehearsed flow.

    $.02

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    If your opponent is armed things will be happening too quickly to make 'decisions' about how you're fighting. You will revert to your training. Since it's pretty difficult to 'train' biting and groin kicking you won't be likely to go to that when you go on auto and are fighting to stay alive. We like to think about 'going berserk' and biting and kicking but that's not what happens. You fight like you train.

    Often that very training, and inability to adapt can get us in trouble. In simulated knife attacks, many LEOs can't make space enough to draw their piece and get 'killed' time and again. They instinctively reach for their holster and suddenly they are one arm against two with a knife, they get over-run, fall down and are 'dead'.

    The perfect training formula isn't easy to come by, but it must include footwork (movement), or getting off the 'x', progressive resistance (energy), timing, and unrehearsed flow.

    $.02
    I'd say better than $.02. That post is worth at least a buck.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck. Fight to win.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    One of the best examples of fighting 'dirty' I've read about is a middle-aged lady dealing with a perp trying to climb through her window. She sees him and without hesitation grabs her heavy brass lamp and beans him over the head with it, sending him scurrying away. She didn't stop and try to access her HG, she just reacted and prevailed.

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    If you are lawfully defending yourself, then the other person is already not following the rules. At most, your level of force needs to be in compliance with the law, basically the level of force necessary to stop the threat. Other than that, there are no rules. If there are no rules, there is no such thing as fighting dirty.



    Harvey Logan: Guns or knives?
    Butch Cassidy: Neither?
    Harvey Logan: Pick!
    Butch Cassidy: I don't want to shoot with you, Harvey.
    Harvey Logan: [draws a big knife] Anything you say, Butch.
    [Butch walks over to Sundance]
    Butch Cassidy: [in a low voice] Maybe there's a way to make a profit in this. Bet on Logan.
    Sundance Kid: I would, but who'd bet on you?
    Harvey Logan: Sundance, when we're done and he's dead, you're welcome to stay.
    Butch Cassidy: [low voice, to Sundance] Listen, I don't mean to be a sore loser, but when it's done, if I'm dead, kill him.
    Sundance Kid: [low voice to Butch] Love to.
    [waves to Harvey and smiles]
    Butch Cassidy: No, no, not yet. Not until me and Harvey get the rules straightened out.
    Harvey Logan: Rules? In a knife fight? No rules!
    [Butch immediately kicks Harvey in the groin]
    Butch Cassidy: Well, if there aint' going to be any rules, let's get the fight started. Someone count. 1,2,3 go.
    Sundance Kid: [quickly] 1,2,3, go!
    [Butch knocks Harvey out]
    Flat Nose Curry: I was really rooting for you, Butch.
    Butch Cassidy: Well, thank you, Flatnose. That's what sustained me in my time of trouble.

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    When your done with them, throw em off the edge of the world.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Win the fight by any means necessary. What this comes down to is preservation of life. One punch could kill a person, and so when a fight comes my way, I fight to walk away alive, and intact.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    The few times I've been in an actual fight, I never felt like my life or even my safety were at risk. If I perceive it like that, there's no reason I feel I need to fight dirty. On the other hand, if they pull any kind of weapon, or I'm in a position where I can't defend myself, that all goes out the window.

    Story time!

    Once when I was downtown with my wife, we were driving down one of the main bar blocks, when I saw 4-5 guys jump another one. They moved to the sidewalk where I couldn't see from the road, and we started hearing what sounded like a metal baseball bat hitting the concrete. There were a LOT of people standing around, there being 3 major bars on this little block. I was just kind of watching this whole thing unfold in front of my car, when this biggish guy walks out in front of us. A girl (that I found out later was his girlfriend) comes over and starts yelling at him, and he picks her up by the throat and choke slams her on the road.

    Now, there aren't many things that upset me. I'm very easy going, and like to avoid confrontation when I can. But hitting a woman, in any way shape or form, is one thing I don't tolerate. I pretty much snapped, put the car in park, took my seatbelt off, and jetted out the door. As I was running, my fist met his face, and he fell from the impact, as did I. We got up, and he was just kind of wobbling around, with blood running from his nose. (I found out later I broke his nose, and that he was picked up by the cops later that night, from his facebook of all things =P)

    I start yelling at him in a very unfriendly manner, while one of my friends had emerged from another bar and saw what was going on, so he did the classic 'hold me back'. After that he rapidly gets picked up by an SUV and they drive off. Cops show up and start getting everyones story, while people come up and congratulate me, along with the girl with a nice hug.

    Moral of the story: Don't drink in excess, and don't hit a woman (especially when I'm around.)

  11. #11
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    No need to fight fair. Fight to win.

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    I was still a teenager when I made that decision. If you want to fight me, I am going to hurt you. Not hit you, HURT you. I will cause damage beyond bruises.

    And I haven't had a fight since I was a teenager.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

    Politicians should serve two terms, one in office and one in prison.(borrowed from RioKid)

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4OnhnvczTk

    Epic Beard Man demonstrates exactly how that sort of situation works. The other person throws the first punch. You come back with everything at once. Unless the person is a seasoned fighter, they will be overwhelmed.
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    Fighting dirty?

    Damn straight.

  15. #15
    Regular Member carry for myself's Avatar
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    well anyone that carries knows that confrontation is the LAST thing you want and to walk away is the best thing.

    so with that said if i find myself in a "street fight" it probably means i tried the above multiple times to no avail and the punk has forced me into it.

    meaning he is physically assaulting me and leaving me no choice but to whoop some stuff to defend myself.

    in that scenario ........fight dirty? heck yeah. eyes, groin, biting weapons.......im using it all. because at that point he is clearly the aggressor and im just doing that DEFENSE thing that we all train for.

    am i going to say "oh you fell down let me help you up so you can attack me again" NO. im going to pound him untill he stops attacking me. plain and simple :-)
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

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    Quote Originally Posted by chakragod View Post
    The few times I've been in an actual fight, I never felt like my life or even my safety were at risk. If I perceive it like that, there's no reason I feel I need to fight dirty. On the other hand, if they pull any kind of weapon, or I'm in a position where I can't defend myself, that all goes out the window.

    Story time!

    Once when I was downtown with my wife, we were driving down one of the main bar blocks, when I saw 4-5 guys jump another one. They moved to the sidewalk where I couldn't see from the road, and we started hearing what sounded like a metal baseball bat hitting the concrete. There were a LOT of people standing around, there being 3 major bars on this little block. I was just kind of watching this whole thing unfold in front of my car, when this biggish guy walks out in front of us. A girl (that I found out later was his girlfriend) comes over and starts yelling at him, and he picks her up by the throat and choke slams her on the road.

    Now, there aren't many things that upset me. I'm very easy going, and like to avoid confrontation when I can. But hitting a woman, in any way shape or form, is one thing I don't tolerate. I pretty much snapped, put the car in park, took my seatbelt off, and jetted out the door. As I was running, my fist met his face, and he fell from the impact, as did I. We got up, and he was just kind of wobbling around, with blood running from his nose. (I found out later I broke his nose, and that he was picked up by the cops later that night, from his facebook of all things =P)

    I start yelling at him in a very unfriendly manner, while one of my friends had emerged from another bar and saw what was going on, so he did the classic 'hold me back'. After that he rapidly gets picked up by an SUV and they drive off. Cops show up and start getting everyones story, while people come up and congratulate me, along with the girl with a nice hug.

    Moral of the story: Don't drink in excess, and don't hit a woman (especially when I'm around.)

    I had a shipmate I served with relate how he was in a bar when an old boy next to him slapped his girlfriend during an augment. My friend, a just and honorable man, decides he' not going to put up with a man hitting a woman when he's around. He grabs the dirt bag and drags him outside and begins to administer the appropriate thumping. Suddenly, he hears a click behind him. Turning he sees dirt bag's girlfriend aiming a gun at him(pointed in the region of his groin). As she is pulling the trigger he jumps, and is shot in the knee(by the very person whose supposed honor he was defending).

    Morale of that story: He still had the bullet fragments in his leg to remind him daily, don't butt in to other's business.

  17. #17
    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    A man I respected very highly told me, many years ago, "Son, there ain't no such thing as a fair fight. Don't start a fight. Talk your way out of it or walk away if you can. But, if you can't avoid it, do whatever it takes to win."

    Knees, elbows, feet, teeth, or whatever you can pick up.

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    The last "fight" I was in, about 20 years ago, consisted of a single physical blow. The jerk up and head-butted me. Bad move.

    He was a Brit in the American Center in Viborg. He was promptly "escorted" out by my fellow countrymen. I went to the senior British officer (for whom I worked) the next morning and reported the incident. He asked me if I wanted to prefer charges, to have the thug kicked out of the country, or to do nothing. I asked for him to be kicked out of the country--which the Group Captain promptly ordered. That was the end of that NCO's military career. The Group Captain advised me that the thug being ordered out of a special duty NATO assignment would result in his eventual removal from the service, much as would have expected reenlistment to be denied to me should I have been ordered home under a similar cloud.

    Blows don't have to be physical to be very effective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SavageOne View Post
    I had a shipmate I served with relate how he was in a bar when an old boy next to him slapped his girlfriend during an augment. My friend, a just and honorable man, decides he' not going to put up with a man hitting a woman when he's around. He grabs the dirt bag and drags him outside and begins to administer the appropriate thumping. Suddenly, he hears a click behind him. Turning he sees dirt bag's girlfriend aiming a gun at him(pointed in the region of his groin). As she is pulling the trigger he jumps, and is shot in the knee(by the very person whose supposed honor he was defending).

    Morale of that story: He still had the bullet fragments in his leg to remind him daily, don't butt in to other's business.
    I can see where you're coming from, but it's still my duty as a man to defend any woman that's being assaulted by another man. Many may not see it like that, but since I'm a fairly big guy and can defend myself, I feel I have a responsibility to uphold a sense of morality and justice in this world.

    I will always protect those that can't protect themselves, because it's just in my nature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chakragod View Post
    I can see where you're coming from, but it's still my duty as a man to defend any woman that's being assaulted by another man. Many may not see it like that, but since I'm a fairly big guy and can defend myself, I feel I have a responsibility to uphold a sense of morality and justice in this world.

    I will always protect those that can't protect themselves, because it's just in my nature.

    I would have to say we are of a like mind in that regard. We must, however, always be vigilant to the fact that there are strange people out there who may not appreciated any interference, even if it is on their behalf.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Las Vegan's Avatar
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    Three simple rules:

    1. Always be armed.
    2. Always be situationally aware.
    3. There are no rules in a fight.

    The first thing I learned in martial arts was to walk or talk my way out of a confrontation (you can't lose a fight if you aren't in it). The second thing I learned involved a jab to the throat followed in quick succession by a kick to the groin and a hammer fist to the back of the head. Anyone who chooses to hurt me or my loved ones has signed a virtual waiver of liability. Of course they are free to renegotiate afterwards.
    "The right of self-defense never ceases. It is among the most sacred, and alike necessary to nations and to individuals."
    - President James Monroe

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    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    These kinds of threads are always my favorites

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Las Vegan View Post
    Three simple rules:

    1. Always be armed.
    2. Always be situationally aware.
    3. There are no rules in a fight.

    The first thing I learned in martial arts was to walk or talk my way out of a confrontation (you can't lose a fight if you aren't in it). The second thing I learned involved a jab to the throat(Spear hand, Nukite or fist?) followed in quick succession by a kick to the groin(Knees are easier to hit & not nearly as well guarded on males.) and a hammer fist to the back of the head(Occipital area? Followed by a toe or heal on the point of the tailbone?). Anyone who chooses to hurt me or my loved ones has signed a virtual waiver of liability. Of course they are free to renegotiate afterwards.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

    Politicians should serve two terms, one in office and one in prison.(borrowed from RioKid)

  24. #24
    Regular Member Las Vegan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldCurlyWolf View Post
    (Spear hand, Nukite or fist?)
    Spear hand: fingers together and extended. This along with turning your body back and to the side creates a smaller targer while extending your reach. When the hand is swept up from below you add surprise.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldCurlyWolf View Post
    (Knees are easier to hit & not nearly as well guarded on males.)
    After a jab to the throat, typically your dance partner is not thinking about protecting his groin.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldCurlyWolf View Post
    (Occipital area? Followed by a toe or heal on the point of the tailbone?)
    Sure, feel free to add damage after attacking the throat and groin and then smashing the attacker to the ground. Me, I'll be walking away at this point.
    Last edited by Las Vegan; 05-21-2011 at 08:43 AM.
    "The right of self-defense never ceases. It is among the most sacred, and alike necessary to nations and to individuals."
    - President James Monroe

  25. #25
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    If it comes down to it, and a fight just cannot be avoided, then do what you gotta do.
    Fights of any kind arent scripted,movie-style events with choreographers and stunt-doubles, so thoughts of "if this, then im going to.." mm no.
    Adapt, use what you have at hand-or the hands themselves,as best you can-no rules, no mercy.

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