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Thread: Response from Chief Leck

  1. #1
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    Response from Chief Leck

    Greg Leck is the chief of police in the city of Stoughton, and president of the Wisconsin Police Chiefs Association

    Here is my original Email:

    Dear Chief Leck,
    You were recently quoted in the Jansevill Gazzette Xtra as following:

    “This bill allows just about anyone to carry a loaded gun just about anywhere in public, even though research shows that allowing more people to carry guns in more places will lead to one thing—more tragedies,” said Stoughton Police Chief Greg Leck, president of the association."
    Could you please give me a source for your information? Everything else I've seen has been to the contrary, being lower crime rates, or no change. Numerous FBI and 3rd party studies have shown this to be the case. 48 states so far and counting.
    To be sure, I disagree with your anti-gun stance, and that of the police chiefs association. I sincerely hope that when concealed carry passes in either form in Wisconsin, that you will not allow your hate to carry over into your duties or policies, or those of your officers.

    Here is his responce I just got:

    I don’t really understand your statement about my “hate”? Nothing could be further from the truth. There is no “hate” as you call it at all and what little opinion that you must have of law enforcement if you believe that we would be anything but professional with whatever laws are legally enacted.

    I am, as well as the WI Chiefs of Police Association, strong supporters of our 2 nd Amendment rights and we would support a good Concealed Carry Bill. Neither of the Bills being offered at this point provide enough strength to keep people that should not be allowed to carry concealed from doing so. Further, we wouldn’t let someone drive a vehicle without training why should we have fear of training people before they carry a concealed weapons. We Chiefs believe in the need to properly vet and train and then issue a permit prior to carrying concealed. Permitting is not for keeping tabs on who owns guns it is to ensure people are qualified to carry concealed. Much like requiring voter ID. As with current law, no one is denied any rights under the 2 nd Amendment but concealed carry should require special consideration. Police chiefs have an obligation to keep everyone safe, especially the thousand of police officers we represent. The prospect of facing hundreds or even thousands of non-felon street gang members all carrying legal concealed weapons is not a comforting thought. Would it be for you, even if armed?

    From your comments it does not appear that you have even read the complete bills being offered. Unfortunately, you only quote one comment of many that was released on behalf of the WI Chiefs of Police. The rest of our comments include just what I said previously, we would support a Concealed Carry Bill that is good for WI. Wisconsin has some of the lowest violent crime rates in the country. We don’t want to see that changed. Also, I could never support legislation that requires more stringent measures to allow retired police officers to carry concealed then it does of regular citizens who have never carried weapons. That’s what included in these current Bills along with other provisions that don’t appear good for WI.

    As for statistics, please go beyond just the FBI violent crimes (even though those statistics support our comments) and look at gun violence statistics. They include accidents, suicides, non-homicide shootings, and the rest of the story. I don’t rely on the NRA or the liberal anti-gun lobby for any information as both will slant their information to meet their respective message. For additional information, start with the University of WI School of Medicine. Even though they are often considered liberal, they compile their information from law enforcement, EMS, and hospital records and are fairly unbiased in their gun violence reporting.

    By the way, I am an avid hunter, gun enthusiast, and have been carry a concealed weapon for over 32 years. I carry off duty because of the obligation that my profession ethically requires me to act to defend others if I need to. Not a day has gone by in that 32 years that I haven’t questioned on whether my training is good enough to be successful when needed. I continue to train accordingly and would not consider carrying without proper training.

    Gregory W. Leck
    Chief of Police
    Stoughton Police Department
    321 S. Fourth Street
    Stoughton, WI 53589
    (608) 873-3374
    gleck@ci.stoughton.wi.us

    Heres my draft response...kinda wordy, and I will wait awhile to edit it and incorporate any suggestions:

    Dear Chief Leck
    Please understand that I do not have any dislike of the law enforcement community.

    What I dislike is that the law enforcement leadership keeps coming out against concealed carry every time it is introduced.
    The Wisconsin Chief Police Association, as I understand it, is associated itself with Wisconsin Anti-Violence Effort (WAVE). WAVE is purely an anti-gun association, funded in by the anti-gun Joyce Foundation. WAVE doesn't even do anything with actual violence prevention, except calls for gun control. They run surveys within their own membership then make claims the survey reflects the will of the state/country/whatever. They don't even allow posting of facts on their own facebook page. Post a fact countering their claims, it gets deleted and the user kicked out in short order. Did you by any chance listen to Jeri B's (head of WAVE) testimony? Not one fact. Just emotion and sweeping generalizations.
    If WCPA is not associated with WAVE, I would strongly suggest such as statement be released to that effect, because most of the gun community believes it to be so. WAVE is about nothing but hate towards inanimate objects, So by association, I believe that is the WCPA's stance also.
    I wish all police chiefs were as supportive as you make the WCPA to be. We have Milwaukee's chief, Ed Flynn, who told his officers to "prone them" when it came to open carriers, regardless of what they, the open carriers, were doing. Madison's chief Noble Wray has stated in so many words that open carriers need to be stopped and checked out every time there is a citizen complaint, even if the open carrier has done nothing wrong.

    Seeing as how it is already illegal for felons and mentally incompetent to own firearms, much less carry them concealed, but they already do so without regard to the law, and these bills do nothing to change that. Those thousands of street gang members you mention, can, and do carry, without worrying about whether the law says you can already. My level of concern will not increase when this law passes, but I will at least have increased confidence that I will not be their victim if they decide I'm a target. These thugs will not seek out formal training, if any. On that same note, driving a car is a privilege, not a right, and yet cars kill and injure about 5 times as many people as guns. In fact, hospitals and Doctors, who are licensed and permitted, are one of the leading causes of death in this country, way ahead of firearms.
    As you know, law abiding citizens in the state of Wisconsin can already open carry, with restrictions. I have done so many times. I have had no formal training classes. I practice often. Gun safety has been taught to me via friends and family, which is as traditional as the annual deer hunt. What is the difference if I cover the gun with a piece of fabric? Unfortunately, I can't carry in most of downtown Stoughton because of the feel-good gun free school zone laws.
    I do know that police officers are trained to approach every situation as if all parties were armed. The current bills would not change this, so why is this constantly brought up?
    As the Supreme Court of the United States have ruled, police have no legal obligation to protect anyone. I know the average police officer feels the obligation to do so, but they cannot, so we must protect ourselves or our loved ones by any means available. .

    I have indeed read the bills. I don't see mandated training as necessary. One doesn't need training to practice their first amendment rights, although it would seem that some so called journalists do need it. I feel that any law abiding citizen who feels the need to carry a firearm but has no experience in handling one will voluntarily seek it out.
    I have looked at many, many statistics, read many research articles and books on gun laws, pro and con, from all sides of the spectrum. I recommend a couple of items. One would be John Lotts "More Guns Less Crime", and gunfacts.info.

  2. #2
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    While I applaud your effort I think it is fruitless. Reason plays no part in the arena of politics. He knows the facts as well as we do. He is playing a part to guarantee his power and influence is ensured.

    Besides. It doesn't matter what the Chief thinks or wants. He works for us. It doesn't matter what the Wisconsin Police Chiefs Association wants or thinks. They work for us.

    Case and point:
    Police chiefs have an obligation to keep everyone safe, especially the thousand of police officers we represent. The prospect of facing hundreds or even thousands of non-felon street gang members all carrying legal concealed weapons is not a comforting thought.
    Wait. I'll break out the whaaaaaambulance. What utter bullsh*t. So what this idiot is saying is that there are currently hundreds or thousands of over 21 year old street gang members currently prowling the streets of Wisconsin? If that's the case his ass and every single Chief in Wisco should be fired immediately.

    Instead of writing him I suggest you write/contact to the media with the headline:

    Police Chief admits thousands of gang members roam Wisconsin streets unchecked!
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 05-18-2011 at 02:40 AM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    This is Why

    people should use avoid inflammatory rhetoric. Using the word "hate" allows him to shift the focus to you.

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    By the way, I am an avid hunter, gun enthusiast, and have been carry a concealed weapon for over 32 years. I carry off duty because of the obligation that my profession ethically requires me to act to defend others if I need to. Not a day has gone by in that 32 years that I haven’t questioned on whether my training is good enough to be successful when needed. I continue to train accordingly and would not consider carrying without proper training.
    Typical response. Where I disagree with him completely is mandatory training. I would encourage everyone to get training, but it is hard to train an entire class. One on one, or even one on two is really the only way you can train people.
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  5. #5
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet
    Instead of writing him I suggest you write/contact to the media with the headline:
    Police Chief admits thousands of armed gang members roam Wisconsin streets unchecked!
    FTFY... But it's a great idea.

    what little opinion that you must have of law enforcement if you believe that we would be anything but professional with whatever laws are legally enacted.
    Like officers in Racine, West Milwaukee, Brookfield, Madison, Greenfield were all professional & followed the law in their dealings with lawfully-armed citizens...? If it were just one city, or a few officers who were disciplined for their actions, I could believe his statement. But with a pattern of abuse? No way.

    Neither of the Bills being offered at this point provide enough strength to keep people that should not be allowed to carry concealed from doing so.
    Criminals ignore laws.
    No law has ever stopped a criminal from doing what he wanted.
    Laws can only punish after the crime is committed.

    we wouldn’t let someone drive a vehicle without training why should we have fear of training people before they carry a concealed weapons.
    Yet people drive without training, without licenses, and even people w/ both have crashes.
    And yes, look at doctors, who kill many times more people than peaceful citizens lawfully carrying guns for protection.
    I'm not against training, not by any stretch of imagination. I'm against mandatory training where the gov't decides what I need to know in order to be allowed to exercise the privilege (formerly a right) of self-defense.

    Permitting... is to ensure people are qualified to carry concealed.
    So having a permit system will magically stop all the criminals who are currently carrying concealed?
    Kind of like how current laws prohibiting felons from having firearms work?
    I carry openly & don't need a permit. Putting on a coat doesn't need a permit.
    Logically, combining them doesn't need a permit.

    Much like requiring voter ID.
    Voting doesn't take a background check & training.

    Police chiefs have an obligation to keep everyone safe
    No more than any other LEO, which is to say not at all.

    Wisconsin has some of the lowest violent crime rates in the country. We don’t want to see that changed.
    He doesn't want it to go lower????? What a putz!
    Almost everywhere else that has (& uses) concealed carry has seen violent crime drop significantly. A couple of states have stayed level.
    If someone is attacking me, the crime rate is 100% & I want something done about it right then.

    legislation that requires more stringent measures to allow retired police officers to carry concealed then it does of regular citizens
    So he supports Constitutional Carry, because that way ALL citizens who are not prohibited persons can freely exercise their rights.
    The reason there's special language about LEOs is to meet the requirements of the federal privilege permit.

    look at gun violence statistics. They include accidents, suicides, non-homicide shootings, and the rest of the story.
    In 2004 the U.S. National Academy of Sciences did:
    "a review of 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications, and some original empirical research... [which] failed to identify any gun control that had reduced violent crime, suicide, or gun accidents.”
    Charles F. Wellford et. al., Nat'l Research Council, Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review 6-10 (2004).

    The CDC came to the same conclusion in 2003.

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    Police cheifs are not geerally elected by the people. They are appointed by the mayor and/or the city council therefore they are mearly puppets. I wonder if COP Leck realizes that if he carries a concealed weapon while off duty he is violating Wisconsin vehicle transport (167.31) and the GFSZ (948.605) if he carries a firearm, that is loaded and uncased in a vehicle and carries a loaded concealed weapon within 1000feet of school property. The only exception in 167.31 for peace officers is when they are on duty or driving to and from work. Peace officers can carry in SZ only if they are acting in an official capacity.

    167.31 Vehicle transport of firearms.

    3. Subsection (2) (b) does not apply to a person employed as
    a peace officer who places, possesses or transports a firearm in or
    on a vehicle while traveling in the vehicle from his or her residence
    to his or her place of employment as a peace officer

    948.605 GFSZ

    2 (6)Exceptions
    6. By a law enforcement officer or state−certified commission
    warden acting in his or her official capacity;

  7. #7
    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    Well I can't say for sure but I'm thinking the HR 218, the Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act would overrule those state statutes. But I think it would take a long time to even convince a prosecutor to file the charges. There are probably other exemptions somewhere anyway. There always is regarding Leo's
    Click Here for New to WI Open Carry Legal References and Informational Videos--- FAQ's http://Tinyurl.com/OpenCarry-WI

    The Armed Badger A WI site dedicated to Concealed Carry in WI

    "To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason, Speech of June 14, 1788

    http://Tinyurl.com/New-To-Guns to DL useful Info

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    FWIW... some history, the Personal Protection Act of 2005, which was the last CC law vetoed by Doyle, was much more restrictive than either of the current bills. It had a mandatory training requirement and quite a few more "no carry" locations. The Milwaukee Patrolman's Assoc, Law Enforcement Alliance of America, Fraternal Order of Police (WI chapter), and the WI State Troopers Assoc. all supported that bill, vetoed by Doyle. The WPCA and the Badger State Sheriff Deputies Assoc OPPOSED that bill.... vehemently. They wanted a "may"-issue law, mental health evaluation was to be done as a presrequisite to a permit (OK from a "shrink"), along with extensive training similar to what LEOs get in police acadamies. IOW, only those with "connections", and $$$ to burn, could afford or get a permit. I don't recall if Chief Leck was in charge of the WPCA back then or not. I noticed in his e-mail he states what they don't like about the current bills... but no where will he admit exactly what it is they'd actually endorse. Two of his sentences are below... read between the lines.

    "We Chiefs believe in the need to properly vet and train and then issue a permit prior to carrying concealed."

    Vet??? How much will the "vet" process (shrink) cost me? How about 2 weeks of training? Can you say "2nd Mortgage"?

    "Also, I could never support legislation that requires more stringent measures to allow retired police officers to carry concealed then it does of regular citizens who have never carried weapons."

    Not sure if he wants more stringent measures for us "regular citizens", or less stringent for retired police officers. I'm betting it's a combination of both that makes it easy for retired officers (which I agree it should be) and much more stringent for us "regular" folk. What SB90/AB126 does, is mandate that the state comply with U.S. law (HR218) by issuing the IDs that HR218 requires retired LEOs to have for nationwide CC. Similar language was in the last CC bill. If he has a problem with HR218, he can write his congressman.
    Last edited by safcrkr; 05-19-2011 at 01:58 PM.

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    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    Wondering???

    If; as he stated, after 32 years of doing his job he arrives at work unsure of his ability to perform. Sounds like a good reason for us to protect our selfs.
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

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