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Thread: Chesterfield PD--OCer Encounter

  1. #1
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    Chesterfield PD--OCer Encounter

    Below are excerpts from VCDL's 5/15/11 weekly e-mail about an encounter with a VCDL member and a Chesterfield officer.

    ...He walked up to me and said there had been some vandalism and thefts in the area and he asked if I had seen anybody during my walk.

    I said, "not a soul."
    He said that it was kind of late for someone to be walking. I said, "not for me."

    He asked where I lived and I gave him the name of the neighborhood.

    He asked if I had any identification.

    I said, "I'm simply out for a walk and I have no legal obligation to provide any ID."

    He said that he wanted to show he was at least doing due diligence by getting the names of anybody in the area of the vandalism.

    His demeanor was professional and he was not trying to be intimidating in any way, so I said, "As a courtesy, I will let you see my ID."

    He thanked me and took my ID, jotted down my name and handed back my ID about 5 second later.

    I told him I hoped he caught the vandals and that I would keep an eye out during my walks. I then went on my way.

    Some thoughts on this encounter:

    On the plus side: The officer was professional, non-intimidating, and didn't say a word about my openly carried gun. He did not disarm me nor did he run my ID for warrants. The whole interaction took no more than 2 minutes.

    On the neutral side, he asked for my ID. He's free to do that, but couldn't demand it, which he didn't. I voluntarily provided the ID. In retrospect if I have another such interaction, I'm going to give the officer one of my VCDL business cards instead.

    On the negative side, he should have briefly flashed his blue lights on that unmarked car before driving towards me so that I would reasonably know that he was a police officer. That way I would have not been so apprehensive when he drove up next to me and started getting out of his vehicle...(emphasis added by Citizen)

    You can read the entire write-up here at the link. It is item number three on the list.
    http://www2.vcdl.org/cgi-bin/wspd_cg...5159521&FILTER=


    ------

    That is what we get from Terry v Ohio, allowing cops to just up and investigate people. An everyday guy out for a walk is given a case of minor alarm by a cop.

    Of course, the cop didn't flash his lights! He didn't want to telegraph he was a cop until he was out of the car. Flash the lights too soon and your suspect might run.

    And, who says the cop was really looking for vandals. Such explanation would make a convenient justification. I'm not saying it was not the justification. I'm saying I see no reason to accept the cop's explanation at face value.

    The true test of the officer's professionalism would have been if the writer stood fast on his ID document refusal. Or, if the writer had politely, verbally refused consent to the encounter itself from the very beginning.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Citizen; 05-18-2011 at 10:27 PM.

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    The use of emergency equipment can be seen as a seizure. At face value there was not enough for a Terry stop so the officer maintained a consensual encounter by not using emergency equipment and speaking with him. I also believe some of the members on here would argue using lights on a citizen walking would be intimidating. Officer did everything correct. Good encounter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    The use of emergency equipment can be seen as a seizure. At face value there was not enough for a Terry stop so the officer maintained a consensual encounter by not using emergency equipment and speaking with him. I also believe some of the members on here would argue using lights on a citizen walking would be intimidating. Officer did everything correct. Good encounter.
    Also, since the officer was in an unmarked car (IIRC from PVC's email), patrolling for vandalism suspects, the last thing he'd want to do would be to activate the Kmart lights which could spook someone into running or at the very least, give away his presence.
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    I wish we had just a little more facts. I'm curious as to what factor solved the cop's suspicion.

    And, he had better have been suspicious. Otherwise, there was no justification at all for asking for ID. Not that there was in the first place. But, any argument from the cop's side of the table for justification for asking the identity document completely falls apart without suspicion.
    Last edited by Citizen; 05-19-2011 at 12:36 AM.

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    Not turning on emergency equipment to avoid indicating a seizure in the absence of RAS? Did somebody seriously advance that suggestion?

    Give me a break.

    The cop coulda pulled further down the street, put on the lights, gotten out of the car, and walked back to our citizen in uniform. And, seriously reduced the apprehensiveness of the citizen. Or, even just straightened out after the turn, and pulled over just up ahead, and waited for the citizen to approach without the lights. Then asked a consensual question or two from within the cruiser.

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    RAS to ASK for ID? Since when citizen? Cite that law please. No Leo has to have RAS to ask for anything. The entire encounter was consensual, even when the officer quickly returned his ID.

    Citizen, you say the cop should've pulled down further and put on his lights? Didn't you read up on what was already mentioned about using lights and how it will affect a consensual encounter and how a criminal might run. Also, there is a benefit of surprise when using tactics as a Leo (get closer in case they run, see them ditch items,'etc.). Apprehension of the citizen? Wasn't the Leo in uniform? That should end apprehension.

    Interview people at night from inside your cruiser? Wow what a great tactical suggestion. Obviously that is the safest thing I've heard all year. Got a real genius here.

    I don't know why you must criticize positive encounters by police.
    Last edited by NovaCop10; 05-19-2011 at 07:25 AM.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Officer did everything correct. Good encounter.
    agreed.
    Carry On.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Wasn't the Leo in uniform? That should end apprehension.

    Oh yeah....a uniformed cop really makes people feel safe and cozy, especially in Chesterfield.

    Interview people at night from inside your cruiser? Wow what a great tactical suggestion. Obviously that is the safest thing I've heard all year. Got a real genius here.

    Here we go with officer safety again. That is not etched in the Holey Grail.

    .
    The real problem I see is the fellow giving in and showing his ID.

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    Depending on the time of night this gent was out and about there are English Common Law provisions which require someone out walking in public to identify themselves to the constable after dark. These would have applied here, but a statement of his name and general address should be adequate to fill this requirement. Note that the policeman didn't demand ID, the gent offered it.

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    The real problem I see is the fellow giving in and showing his ID.
    1+
    IHMO,The larger issue is LE in America have become accustom to citizens caving to their request and expecting all to follow suit. When they don't they/we get accused of baiting/trouble making and worse.
    Last edited by Marco; 05-19-2011 at 09:54 AM. Reason: why not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    The real problem I see is the fellow giving in and showing his ID.
    I agree totally, if I am in this type of encounter, I will not show id unless it is demanded by the officer. Even then I will at least state that I am not voluntarily showing id, and question him a bit to make sure it is a demand. I am more likely to ask him if I am being detained, and if he answers no, to be on my way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    On a side note I don't argue that citizens should give ID. If they don't want to, that's fine I don't hold it against anyone exercising their rights. I will however take a photo of those who refuse given some circumstances. Visual ID usually works just as well.
    You take my picture, I take yours, you have no more right to privacy than I do, maybe even less considering you are a public servant, in a public place, performing a duty for the public.

    I would have given my name and address if asked for ID, but I would have also asked the reason why you wanted to know, asked you politely to speak into the microphone, and smile for the camera.
    If Obama is the answer; how stupid was the question?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcmech View Post
    You take my picture, I take yours, you have no more right to privacy than I do, maybe even less considering you are a public servant, in a public place, performing a duty for the public.

    I would have given my name and address if asked for ID, but I would have also asked the reason why you wanted to know, asked you politely to speak into the microphone, and smile for the camera.
    I have no issues with you taking pics or filming leos. Make sure they are professional, and get rid of the bad ones. If I ask for your ID similar to this original senario then I will explain why. I will also provide you with my business card. If I take someone's pic it isn't out of spite, it would be in a situation where I had some suspicion on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    I have no issues with you taking pics or filming leos. Make sure they are professional, and get rid of the bad ones. If I ask for your ID similar to this original senario then I will explain why. I will also provide you with my business card. If I take someone's pic it isn't out of spite, it would be in a situation where I had some suspicion on them.
    Sounds like we would get along fine.
    If Obama is the answer; how stupid was the question?

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    I think if I am asked for ID, I'll just give my name and address (as required) and maybe give them a business card.
    :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I wish we had just a little more facts. I'm curious as to what factor solved the cop's suspicion.
    I think we may have that answer.

    It was PVC. He mentioned it tonight during the VCDL meeting in NoVA.

    His appearance alone would quickly undo any vandal suspicion.

    Which leaves the identity document request without basis, since that came after his appearance would have been apparent and the discussion about what he was doing.

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesy View Post
    I will not show id unless it is demanded by the officer.
    As a matter of principle I will NEVER [again] show my ID, ESPECIALLY if demanded by the officer. Arrest me. Take me downtown.

    Prepare to be sued for violating my 4th Amendment Rights.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSC 45ACP View Post
    I think if I am asked for ID, I'll just give my name and address (as required) and maybe give them a business card.
    :-)
    I have to give my name and address if I'm asked for ID? What the heck?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot2A View Post
    I have to give my name and address if I'm asked for ID? What the heck?!
    It's common law and only applicable after dark.

    I need to ask User about the address part since this stems from a time before enhanced 911 addresses.

    You don't have to SHOW ID, just give your name and address.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot2A View Post
    I have to give my name and address if I'm asked for ID? What the heck?!
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    It's common law and only applicable after dark.

    I need to ask User about the address part since this stems from a time before enhanced 911 addresses.

    You don't have to SHOW ID, just give your name and address.
    I am not sure that is accurate. In fact, unless Virginia has a "stop and ID" statute, there is no onus to identify at all, is there?

    As of February 2011, there is no U.S. federal law requiring that an individual identify herself during a Terry stop, but Hiibel held that states may enact such laws,[20] and 24 states have done so.[21] The opinion in Hiibel implied that persons detained by police in jurisdictions with “stop and identify” laws listed are obligated to identify themselves,[22] and that persons detained in other jurisdictions are not
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes

    Obligation to identify
    States with “stop and identify” laws
    Alabama Ala. Code 15-5-30
    Arizona Ari. Rev. Stat. Tit. 13, 2412 (enacted 2005)
    Arkansas Ark. Code Ann. 5-71-213(a)(1) (loitering)
    Colorado Colo. Rev. Stat. 16-3-103(1)
    Delaware Del. Code Ann., Tit. 11, 1902, 1321(6)
    Florida Fla. Stat. 856.021(2) (loitering and prowling)
    Georgia Ga. Code Ann. 16-11-36(b) (loitering)
    Illinois Ill. Comp. Stat., ch. 725, 5/107-14
    Indiana Indiana Code 34-28-5-3.5
    Kansas Kan. Stat. Ann. 22-2402(1)
    Louisiana La. Code Crim. Proc. Ann., Art. 215.1(A)
    Missouri Mo. Rev. Stat. 84.710(2)
    Montana Mont. Code Ann. 46-5-401
    Nebraska Neb. Rev. Stat. 29-829
    Nevada Nev. Rev. Stat. 171.123
    New Hampshire N.H. Rev. Stat. Ann. 594:2, 644:6
    New Mexico N.M. Stat. Ann. 30-22-3
    New York N.Y. Crim. Proc. Law (CPL) 140.50 (1)
    North Dakota N.D. Cent. Code 29-29-21 (PDF)
    Ohio Ohio Rev. Code 2921.29 (enacted 2006)
    Rhode Island R.I. Gen. Laws 12-7-1
    Utah Utah Code Ann. 77-7-15
    Vermont Vt. Stat. Ann., Tit. 24, 1983
    Wisconsin Wis. Stat. 968.24


    So, there is NO onus to provide your name in Virginia that I can find.
    Last edited by wrightme; 05-20-2011 at 02:16 PM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Exclamation

    There is none in "Virginia" which means that independent localities/municipalities may adopt ordinances.

    Virginia Beach, Norfolk and Newport News have them. You are required to IDENTIFY (not "provide identification") to a uniformed officer or an individual whom you would reasonably believe (undercover) to be an officer of law upon request.

    This generally involves giving your name and address or date of birth. It is a tactic which police (much like bouncers and bartenders) can use to determine if they wish to detain you. If you balk or stutter, something may be afoot - everyone knows their home address and date of birth.

    Hesitation CAN mean someone is fabricating a story and they may investigate further.

    The times I have been stopped (save for one in which I provided it under duress) the officers have seemed satisfied by merely my first name.

    I think it has an AWFUL LOT to do with the time of day, your own demeanor and the individual officer.

    Review: IDENTIFY is not the same as PROVIDE IDENTIFICATION (a document).
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    "Hiibel holds that states may enact laws...."

    Have any local ordinances passed the test in court?

    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    There is none in "Virginia" which means that independent localities/municipalities may adopt ordinances.

    Virginia Beach, Norfolk and Newport News have them. You are required to IDENTIFY (not "provide identification") to a uniformed officer or an individual whom you would reasonably believe (undercover) to be an officer of law upon request.

    This generally involves giving your name and address or date of birth. It is a tactic which police (much like bouncers and bartenders) can use to determine if they wish to detain you. If you balk or stutter, something may be afoot - everyone knows their home address and date of birth.

    Hesitation CAN mean someone is fabricating a story and they may investigate further.

    The times I have been stopped (save for one in which I provided it under duress) the officers have seemed satisfied by merely my first name.

    I think it has an AWFUL LOT to do with the time of day, your own demeanor and the individual officer.

    Review: IDENTIFY is not the same as PROVIDE IDENTIFICATION (a document).
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    I am not sure that is accurate. In fact, unless Virginia has a "stop and ID" statute, there is no onus to identify at all, is there?



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes





    So, there is NO onus to provide your name in Virginia that I can find.
    Someone needs to make an index to a "highlight" list of User's posts.

    Paraphrasing from memory... If you read one of the very first sections
    of the Code of Virginia
    , you find this:

    1-200. The common law.

    The common law of England, insofar as it is not repugnant to the principles of the Bill of Rights and Constitution of this Commonwealth, shall continue in full force within the same, and be the rule of decision, except as altered by the General Assembly.

    So what that means is that unless the General Assembly has specifically addressed a subject, our "starting point" is the common law of England, at a certain point back in time, a date which I can't remember, nor its significance*.

    According to accounts in various posts on this forum by User, the English common law held that after dark, (this was WAY before any artificial street lighting) if the constable found you out and about, the assumption was that you were up to no good, therefore, it was permissible for him to ask your name and where you lived.

    User's point is that this, having never been changed or addressed by the General Assembly, is still the situation in place today... at night, police may ask you for your name and address.

    That's the short summary filtered through my fuzzy memory. If anyone can find one of User's more thorough posts on this subject, let me know and this time, I'll bookmark it!

    TFred

    * Found it... 1607, the "the fourth year of the reign of James the First."
    Last edited by TFred; 05-20-2011 at 10:01 PM. Reason: *

  25. #25
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    As always, IANAL, but in Virginia, being a Dillon Rule state, I would assume that unless they have been granted specific authorization to do so, then localities may actually not enact a stop and ID ordinance. Several do have one, so either there is authorization in the state code, or they've never been successfully challenged in court.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 05-20-2011 at 09:52 PM.

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