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Chesterfield PD--OCer Encounter

Citizen

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Below are excerpts from VCDL's 5/15/11 weekly e-mail about an encounter with a VCDL member and a Chesterfield officer.

...He walked up to me and said there had been some vandalism and thefts in the area and he asked if I had seen anybody during my walk.

I said, "not a soul."
He said that it was kind of late for someone to be walking. I said, "not for me."

He asked where I lived and I gave him the name of the neighborhood.

He asked if I had any identification.

I said, "I'm simply out for a walk and I have no legal obligation to provide any ID."

He said that he wanted to show he was at least doing due diligence by getting the names of anybody in the area of the vandalism.

His demeanor was professional and he was not trying to be intimidating in any way, so I said, "As a courtesy, I will let you see my ID."

He thanked me and took my ID, jotted down my name and handed back my ID about 5 second later.

I told him I hoped he caught the vandals and that I would keep an eye out during my walks. I then went on my way.

Some thoughts on this encounter:

On the plus side: The officer was professional, non-intimidating, and didn't say a word about my openly carried gun. He did not disarm me nor did he run my ID for warrants. The whole interaction took no more than 2 minutes.

On the neutral side, he asked for my ID. He's free to do that, but couldn't demand it, which he didn't. I voluntarily provided the ID. In retrospect if I have another such interaction, I'm going to give the officer one of my VCDL business cards instead.

On the negative side, he should have briefly flashed his blue lights on that unmarked car before driving towards me so that I would reasonably know that he was a police officer. That way I would have not been so apprehensive when he drove up next to me and started getting out of his vehicle...(emphasis added by Citizen)

You can read the entire write-up here at the link. It is item number three on the list.
http://www2.vcdl.org/cgi-bin/wspd_cgi.sh/vcdl/vadetail.html?RECID=5159521&FILTER=


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That is what we get from Terry v Ohio, allowing cops to just up and investigate people. An everyday guy out for a walk is given a case of minor alarm by a cop.

Of course, the cop didn't flash his lights! He didn't want to telegraph he was a cop until he was out of the car. Flash the lights too soon and your suspect might run.

And, who says the cop was really looking for vandals. Such explanation would make a convenient justification. I'm not saying it was not the justification. I'm saying I see no reason to accept the cop's explanation at face value.

The true test of the officer's professionalism would have been if the writer stood fast on his ID document refusal. Or, if the writer had politely, verbally refused consent to the encounter itself from the very beginning.

Thoughts?
 
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NovaCop

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The use of emergency equipment can be seen as a seizure. At face value there was not enough for a Terry stop so the officer maintained a consensual encounter by not using emergency equipment and speaking with him. I also believe some of the members on here would argue using lights on a citizen walking would be intimidating. Officer did everything correct. Good encounter.
 

ProShooter

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The use of emergency equipment can be seen as a seizure. At face value there was not enough for a Terry stop so the officer maintained a consensual encounter by not using emergency equipment and speaking with him. I also believe some of the members on here would argue using lights on a citizen walking would be intimidating. Officer did everything correct. Good encounter.

Also, since the officer was in an unmarked car (IIRC from PVC's email), patrolling for vandalism suspects, the last thing he'd want to do would be to activate the Kmart lights which could spook someone into running or at the very least, give away his presence.
 

Citizen

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I wish we had just a little more facts. I'm curious as to what factor solved the cop's suspicion.

And, he had better have been suspicious. Otherwise, there was no justification at all for asking for ID. Not that there was in the first place. But, any argument from the cop's side of the table for justification for asking the identity document completely falls apart without suspicion.
 
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Citizen

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Not turning on emergency equipment to avoid indicating a seizure in the absence of RAS? Did somebody seriously advance that suggestion?

Give me a break.

The cop coulda pulled further down the street, put on the lights, gotten out of the car, and walked back to our citizen in uniform. And, seriously reduced the apprehensiveness of the citizen. Or, even just straightened out after the turn, and pulled over just up ahead, and waited for the citizen to approach without the lights. Then asked a consensual question or two from within the cruiser.
 

NovaCop

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RAS to ASK for ID? Since when citizen? Cite that law please. No Leo has to have RAS to ask for anything. The entire encounter was consensual, even when the officer quickly returned his ID.

Citizen, you say the cop should've pulled down further and put on his lights? Didn't you read up on what was already mentioned about using lights and how it will affect a consensual encounter and how a criminal might run. Also, there is a benefit of surprise when using tactics as a Leo (get closer in case they run, see them ditch items,'etc.). Apprehension of the citizen? Wasn't the Leo in uniform? That should end apprehension.

Interview people at night from inside your cruiser? Wow what a great tactical suggestion. Obviously that is the safest thing I've heard all year. Got a real genius here.

I don't know why you must criticize positive encounters by police.
 
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peter nap

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Wasn't the Leo in uniform? That should end apprehension.

Oh yeah....a uniformed cop really makes people feel safe and cozy, especially in Chesterfield. :uhoh:

Interview people at night from inside your cruiser? Wow what a great tactical suggestion. Obviously that is the safest thing I've heard all year. Got a real genius here.

Here we go with officer safety again. That is not etched in the Holey Grail.

.

The real problem I see is the fellow giving in and showing his ID.
 

jmelvin

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Depending on the time of night this gent was out and about there are English Common Law provisions which require someone out walking in public to identify themselves to the constable after dark. These would have applied here, but a statement of his name and general address should be adequate to fill this requirement. Note that the policeman didn't demand ID, the gent offered it.
 

Marco

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The real problem I see is the fellow giving in and showing his ID.

1+
IHMO,The larger issue is LE in America have become accustom to citizens caving to their request and expecting all to follow suit. When they don't they/we get accused of baiting/trouble making and worse.
 
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Jonesy

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The real problem I see is the fellow giving in and showing his ID.

I agree totally, if I am in this type of encounter, I will not show id unless it is demanded by the officer. Even then I will at least state that I am not voluntarily showing id, and question him a bit to make sure it is a demand. I am more likely to ask him if I am being detained, and if he answers no, to be on my way.
 

tcmech

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On a side note I don't argue that citizens should give ID. If they don't want to, that's fine I don't hold it against anyone exercising their rights. I will however take a photo of those who refuse given some circumstances. Visual ID usually works just as well.

You take my picture, I take yours, you have no more right to privacy than I do, maybe even less considering you are a public servant, in a public place, performing a duty for the public.

I would have given my name and address if asked for ID, but I would have also asked the reason why you wanted to know, asked you politely to speak into the microphone, and smile for the camera.
 

NovaCop

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You take my picture, I take yours, you have no more right to privacy than I do, maybe even less considering you are a public servant, in a public place, performing a duty for the public.

I would have given my name and address if asked for ID, but I would have also asked the reason why you wanted to know, asked you politely to speak into the microphone, and smile for the camera.

I have no issues with you taking pics or filming leos. Make sure they are professional, and get rid of the bad ones. If I ask for your ID similar to this original senario then I will explain why. I will also provide you with my business card. If I take someone's pic it isn't out of spite, it would be in a situation where I had some suspicion on them.
 

tcmech

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I have no issues with you taking pics or filming leos. Make sure they are professional, and get rid of the bad ones. If I ask for your ID similar to this original senario then I will explain why. I will also provide you with my business card. If I take someone's pic it isn't out of spite, it would be in a situation where I had some suspicion on them.

Sounds like we would get along fine.
 

Citizen

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I wish we had just a little more facts. I'm curious as to what factor solved the cop's suspicion.

I think we may have that answer.

It was PVC. He mentioned it tonight during the VCDL meeting in NoVA.

His appearance alone would quickly undo any vandal suspicion.

Which leaves the identity document request without basis, since that came after his appearance would have been apparent and the discussion about what he was doing.
 

Citizen

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...........
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Claytron

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...........
--Moderator Statement--

All posts with offensive or deliberate misuse of user names, including those that quoted them, have been deleted.

Talk constructively about the subject - if you have a problem with a poster report it properly.
When everybody is as guilty as the one you are dissatisfied with, you make effective moderation difficult to impossible.


I do NOT like being in this position, friendship and respect for another are not in my job description. Everyone must be treated the same when it comes to infractions. Next thing you going to hear from me is the meaning of self-moderation. If everyone did that properly, I'd have to look for something else to do with my spare time.

That and the public bickering, name calling does our image no good. Trust I will not have to repeat this - end it!

Hey grapeshot, you cant even take your own advice and act like a mature adult so stop lecturing people on the matter. I could pull up a handful of ignorant and offensive comments you have made WHILE on "duty" as moderator. You have no room to speak and your meaningless threats to people on here are as laughable as they are unacceptable.
 
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