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Newton Sheriff to use random warrantless house to house searches (and we'll like it!)

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
I am still withholding judgment, however it bears pointing out that one need not fire to provoke.

It is possible that folks suffer from the no-you-drop-it syndrome, caused by excessive viewing of TV action shows in which two people have guns pointed at each other, yelling, "No, you drop it!" at each other. Somehow, we buy into the myth that the pointing of the weapon does not constitute a deadly threat, in and of itself. Both the gunman in the scenario are a trigger pull away from dead--with no further warning and no time to react.

Absent details, I am not willing to conclude that the homeowner was pointing his weapon at the officers. But neither am I willing to conclude that the first shot was negligent or that the other shots were out of panic.

It is suspicious that the department is being so closed-mouthed about the incident. There is no reason not to release details about the warrant and the probable cause that the judge must have ruled on. But, again, I will not be taking the gold home in this Olympic conclusion-jumping contest.
 

HandyHamlet

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
2,772
Location
Terra, Sol
The claim was that it was a botched raid. The only info available was that a SWAT team raided a house and shot a man pointing a gun at them. I'd hardly call that botched. :rolleyes:

Please stop embarrassing yourself. As anyone can clearly read you specifically asked about a wrong address. And if those two facts are all that you glean from countless sources... Well then it is of little wonder why you are baffled. Why you cry out for us to tell you what happened. Therefore I will begrudgingly answer your questions.

Do you know why SWAT was there? Was it the correct address?

Yes, I know why SWAT was there. According the police it was the correct address.

Hope this helps.






Happy Friday!

:banana:
 

eye95

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Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Just happened in Pima Arizona... All the facts are not out yet but looks like a two tour Marine was shot 60 times by SWAT during a wrong address raid... This is really sad...

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?90644-Former-Marine-killed-in-botched-SWAT-raid

It was a wrong address? I have been waiting to find out the whole story, including why the SWAT team was there, before commenting. I don't remember any of the articles I read mentioning a wrong address. Can you direct me to where that fact is mentioned? Thanks.

Another poster has reported that the police say it was the right address.
 

bom1911

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
114
Location
Chesterfield County , USA
This is another incident where overwhelming force seems to have been used unnecessarily. How can the firing of 71 rounds be justified even if there had been provocation, which according to the reports, was absent? It was determined that the Marine did not fire his weapon -- where was the justification for such an (IMO) extreme response? Are not the police supposed to be highly trained and professional? Is there ANY reasonable rationale for multiple officers to have fired 71 times?

It seems to me that the SWAT team showed up ready to do some shooting, and at the first opportunity, did just that. I wonder how many had trouble sleeping after aerating this guy?
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
The claim was that it was a botched raid. The only info available was that a SWAT team raided a house and shot a man pointing a gun at them. I'd hardly call that botched. :rolleyes:


According to recent MIAC reports, this raid was a total success. The DHS has stated in several reports and training memos distributed to local LEAs that returning vets and gun owners are currently the biggest threat to our nation...

One dead decorated vet. Massive coverup of police misconduct. Judges going along with the scam. Sounds like the sort of "successful operation" that would make BATFE and DHS proud...
 

SavageOne

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
577
Location
SEMO, , USA
I wonder if one could raise the defense in killing police who do this that you weren't resisting the entry, you were defending yourself and family from armed intruders. Because without the law stating that it is legal for them to enter your house then they are still intruding and you have the right to defend yourself. And this ruling doesn't make it legal for them to enter, it simply says you can't resist their entering. You didn't resist their entering but you still defended yourself once they were inside. Would also help if IN has a castle law.


The survivors of Waco were tried for the murder of the ATF officers during the initial raid. All were found not guilty of murder. It was determined that the warrant the ATF used was full of mistakes and therefore invalid. That made the raid illegal and gave the defendants a legitimate reason to defend themselves.

That's the sad part of this ruling, now in Indiana there is no way to defend yourself from the government, except in court after the fact(if you survive).
 

eye95

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Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Absent any other data, of course they would say it was the correct address. When you have all the facts and you are the only source of the facts, It is a "I said, I said" situation.

The neighbor and the wife are loose ends, not so credible "witnesses". Did any of the articles state that it was the correct address?

Um...there will be a warrant with the address on it--in both the records of the PD and the court. Lying about the correctness of the address would be kinda stupid and delay consequences only temporarily.

The person who made the "wrong address" claim should back it up or back off the claim.
 

Orion

Regular Member
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
108
Location
Detroit
Well said. This thread has gotten way off the topic it was created for. Personally, I'd like to know when Indiana seceded from the Union and became its own totalitarian state. Hopefully somebody in the states' AG office will educate this sheriff on proper procedure.
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
The survivors of Waco were tried for the murder of the ATF officers during the initial raid. All were found not guilty of murder. It was determined that the warrant the ATF used was full of mistakes and therefore invalid. That made the raid illegal and gave the defendants a legitimate reason to defend themselves.

That's the sad part of this ruling, now in Indiana there is no way to defend yourself from the government, except in court after the fact(if you survive).

From the ruling "We believe ... a right to resist an unlawful police entry into a home is against public policy and is incompatible with modern Fourth Amendment jurisprudence". What I would say is that I didn't resist his entry. As you can clearly see he entered the house and I didn't even force him to leave. I simply refused to let him walk around the house as he pleased, but never did I resist his entry into my house. Additionally once he has entered the house he is now an armed intruder regardless of the fact that he is a cop. Naturally I wouldn't want to try and play "quick draw" with him, but that wouldn't mean I wouldn't be willing to defend my home if I were in a reasonable position to do so. I just hope that this gets tossed out as unconstitutional before it ever comes to that, but should this try to stick then that is likely what it will come to by someone.

Oh and the whole "rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" thing.
 
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Thundar

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
4,946
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
So they kick down your door and they enter. You do not resist. They walk intoyour living room and they see your rifle cabinet. They decide that they must secure these rifles and shotguns for "officer safety" but the cabinet is locked. They smash the glass and take the rifles and shotguns. They then sweep the entire house for firearms. The ammo sniffing dog finds alot. Needless to say they label your house an arsenal. The fusion center says you have several guns that are not in their database so your ownership is questionable. They decide to keep all of the firearms they find to "run the numbers" and do in depth forensics. There are too many firearms, they say, to ensure compliance with all applicable laws on the scene.

Think it cannot happen here?

It already is happening.

Who is John Galt? Live free or die!
Thundar
 

rushcreek2

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2010
Messages
909
Location
Colorado Springs. CO
"MODERN FOURTH AMENDMENT JURISPRUDENCE"

It bears restating one more time -

Constitutions PROTECT THE PEOPLE from their constituted governments.

The RECIPROCAL PRINCIPLE is that Only those same people can protect THEIR constitutions from that same government.

Allowing any government to "amend" a constitution through "jurisprudence" (modern or not)will eventually reduce that constitution to nothing more than an archeological artifact.

"PUBLIC POLICY" - What a novel & clever cliche. Who needs constitutions , when we have "public policy" to protect our liberties. Why didn't the framers of the U.S. Consituttion think of that one ? Simply invoke "public policy"- WOW !

"If you simply waive your rights, and cooperate - things will go much better for you, mein fraul." Sounds like a line from "Raiders of the Lost Ark".

WACO still lingers in the minds of many Texans. The image of the Ruby Ridge fiasco also.

This is why we have a Second Amendment. GET A WARRANT ! Period.
 
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SouthernBoy

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
5,837
Location
Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
In 1997, my wife and I began looking for a place to build a new home. We had been living in Arlington, VA and saw that county degrade into something we didn't like and believed there to be no future there for us. There were several reasons for our wanting to leave.

o Increase in crime and unwanted activity getting closer and closer to home.
o The flood of immigrants into the county and the obvious lack of a willingness to encourage them to adopt our ways.
o A county board that was steeped in politics not exactly to our liking.

And then there was this. A new Chief of Police wanted citizens to allow his officers to examine citizens' homes where class 3 firearms existed to make sure they were properly stored. Also, a member of the board uttered these words (paraphrased) which completely left me aghast;

"Anyone who grew up in the 60's and says they never did drugs is either lying or didn't get out much".

What a jerk.

I know of three shootings by the police involving homeowners in their own homes where the homeowners were the innocent parties. Allowing police to conduct random searches or when entering a residence, to have full and complete immunity for their actions is worse than sheer folly or unConstitutional behavior. It is an anathema in a free society where liberty is prized and only opens the door to further escalations of liberty's decline.
 

GLOCK21GB

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
4,347
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
I would hope that if this happens the people of this country will unify / will band together & end this once and for all.
Yes, once this TOTALITARIAN police state government begins doing things that are CLEARLY against the founding documents..then it's time to start a new / Refresh the tree of liberty. Ok maybe I have to spell it out for some of you. Revoltution ! Anyone that thinks that illegal searches, AND I COULD GIVE A FLYING CRAP LESS WHAT THE INDIANA SUPREME KANGAROO COURT THINKS - is as lost as this country is. ((( address it in court after they violate your rights ))) ummm THAT'S TOO LATE ! This country has become a nation of COWARDS. Our founding fathers would NOT sit still for this ! They would Raise thier Armies & Revolt. BUT then again our founding fathers were REAL men that actually knew what FREEDOM & Libery ment...When the big RESET does begin I would really hate to be a Police officer..they won't last long as the people will delete them first. Those SWAT teams won't last long either once the well armed people begin removing this socialist totalitarian gobernment by force of arms... The cleansing will last years & it will be bloody but when it is finished the tree of liberty will be well watered.

of course I am not advocating a revolution ;)
 
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