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Former Marine killed in botched SWAT raid

Washintonian_For_Liberty

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
922
Location
Mercer Island, Washington, USA
Unfortunately guys... its going to take a war... a bloody, violent war. The authoritarians will not give up their power... and every attempt we make at trying to dial back their despotic powers, they surge and grab even more. Did the DEA shrink after WACO? Nope! Did the FBI get smaller or change tactics after Ruby Ridge? Nope! They are even more militaristic and antagonistic towards innocent Americans than ever before and now... well now they have the courts telling them that even if they don't have a warrant... even if they only think they smell pot... the Constitution no longer applies... bust the door down... and kill whoever resists.

Part of Patrick Henry's speech modified for today!

They tell us, my fellow Americans, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a Federal Agent shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? My fellow Americans, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Arizona, Indiana, South Carolina and every other State in this grand Union! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the East will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

Does it fit? I think so.
 

Daylen

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
I could see manslaughter for the neglegent discharge and shooting, but I agree, definately murder for purposely delaying medical attention to allow the marine combat hero bleed out.
71 shots are not a negligent discharge, that is a firing squad.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Unfortunately guys... its going to take a war... a bloody, violent war. The authoritarians will not give up their power... and every attempt we make at trying to dial back their despotic powers, they surge and grab even more. Did the DEA shrink after WACO? Nope! Did the FBI get smaller or change tactics after Ruby Ridge? Nope! They are even more militaristic and antagonistic towards innocent Americans than ever before and now... well now they have the courts telling them that even if they don't have a warrant... even if they only think they smell pot... the Constitution no longer applies... bust the door down... and kill whoever resists.

Part of Patrick Henry's speech modified for today!

They tell us, my fellow Americans, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a Federal Agent shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? My fellow Americans, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Arizona, Indiana, South Carolina and every other State in this grand Union! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the East will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

Does it fit? I think so.

Although I understand your frustration and am with you on the principles. I still feel there is hope without war. This does not mean there won't be violence perpetrated by the "authorities" I think the first step is simply resistance and education.

Educate the people, that our liberty is more important than the life of those willing to take it. Maclean ( an LEO in Washington forum) has labled me a confrontational, and a douche bag, and that I spout nonsense. He also claims to be well aware of my instances and said the way I handled things set civil rights back, and that I am a shining example of how a little knowledge is dangerous. Yet he doesn't explain how and I guess he wants people to remain ignorant. I will continue to insist that knowledge is power.
 
Last edited:

hermannr

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,327
Location
Okanogan Highland
One question I do not see answered here...what was the warrent for that it required a stealth attack by a SWAT team?

Anywone ever heard of "excessive use of force"?
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
One question I do not see answered here...what was the warrent for that it required a stealth attack by a SWAT team?

Anywone ever heard of "excessive use of force"?

Your first question is appropriate. Your second need not be asked until the first is answered.
 

M-Taliesin

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Messages
1,504
Location
Aurora, Colorado
Howdy Folks!
There is a huge difference between legitimate law enforcement and terrorism. This appears to be much more a terrorist act than an attempt to serve a search warrant. Put another way, this family was set upon in a manner that would be better fitting the likes of Al Queda than a sheriff's office.

Ironic, is it not, that a man who served 2 tours of Iraq was probably safer there than in his own bed in his own home. After all, he survived Iraq, only to be brutally gunned down in Tuscon Arizona.

When cops break the law, there is no law. I believe the case can be made for murder in the first degree. They went to his house, armed and ready to kill the man inside. They were locked and loaded. Minimal force necessary to control the situation does not equate 71 rounds with 60 hits.

And speaking of Al Queda, professionals only required 2 shots to bring down bin Laden! Then men who fired a torrent of bullets into that house can scarcely be considered professional. And in my opinion, each and every man who pulled the trigger should face murder in the first degree, attempted murder, conspiracy to murder, and gross criminal negligence (wife and kid in the house!).

The people of that jurisdiction should demand the department disband that unit immediately, prosecute murder charges against a pack of killers, and demand the immediate resignation of the sheriff of that county. Plus, he too should be charged with conspiracy to murder.

Wearing a badge does not absolve a criminal of criminal acts. And this was nothing short of murder.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin
 

HandyHamlet

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
2,772
Location
Terra, Sol
One question I do not see answered here...what was the warrent for that it required a stealth attack by a SWAT team?

Anywone ever heard of "excessive use of force"?

No answers because I don't think anyone knows. The Pima County Sheriff's Department has sealed the records, including the warrant. They have also lawyered up and have been spinning stories that directly contradict all statements made by the wife and witnesses.

http://www.kold.com/story/14681999/both-sides-in-swat-shooting-case-come-out-swinging

Storie said the SWAT team served a search warrant on the home in an ongoing conspiracy investigation.

No one person was named in the warrant.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
No, but the negligent discharge precipitated the 71 shots.

Yea the negligent discharge by an overzealous cop hopped up on adrenaline itching for the thrill of battle.

There are no excuses for these no knock warrants and SWAT teams. Jezus, just arrest the man when he's watering his lawn, (if you have warrant) and then use your warrant for your search.
 

Thundar

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
4,946
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
Unfortunately guys... its going to take a war... a bloody, violent war. The authoritarians will not give up their power... and every attempt we make at trying to dial back their despotic powers, they surge and grab even more. Did the DEA shrink after WACO? Nope! Did the FBI get smaller or change tactics after Ruby Ridge? Nope! They are even more militaristic and antagonistic towards innocent Americans than ever before and now... well now they have the courts telling them that even if they don't have a warrant... even if they only think they smell pot... the Constitution no longer applies... bust the door down... and kill whoever resists.

Part of Patrick Henry's speech modified for today!

They tell us, my fellow Americans, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a Federal Agent shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? My fellow Americans, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Arizona, Indiana, South Carolina and every other State in this grand Union! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the East will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

Does it fit? I think so.

Patrick Henry always fits with liberty discussions, especially liberties teeth discussions.

There is a tipping point. We are getting closer to it. The 4th is already evicerated. The 10th is ignored. When they try to evicerate the 2nd, they will have gone past my tipping point.
 

HKcarrier

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Messages
816
Location
michigan
Not to defend the po-po.... but 8-9 shots by 8-9 guys is 70some shots.. that can happen in 1-2 seconds of seeing a guy with an AR.

Now, why they were there in the first place is what I want to know.
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
Yea the negligent discharge by an overzealous cop hopped up on adrenaline itching for the thrill of battle.

Sounds like a widespread case of "'Roid Rage" to me...

Illegal steroid use among LEOs is a HUGE problem in America, and incidents like this are a symptom of this VERY dangerous trend...

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/12/26/illegal-steroid-use-among-police-officers-a-big-problem/

http://articles.philly.com/2011-04-27/news/29478768_1_distribution-ring-steroids-indictment

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3745740&page=1

http://www.menshealth.com/health/scandals-cops-and-steroids

http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/news/local/kalamazoo_and_battle_creek/police-sergeant-resigns
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
We also need to remember how police are being trained today...

Recently, while listening to the "Gun Talk" podcast, I heard the host, Tom Gresham (a well-respected shooting sports journalist) talking about attending an LEO training session out west. He said that the command they use to tell people on the firing line to start shooting is for the range officer to shout "GUN"...

So cops are being trained to reflexively open fire when they hear someone yell "gun".

I would suspect that this training convention is coming from the top--the VERY top--of the LEO community. And by the "top", I mean the US DOJ.

Such a training convention goes a LONG way to explain why we're seeing the sort of things like this Pima incident, and the way that LE in Philly behave.

Pavlov would be proud...
 

cbpeck

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2009
Messages
405
Location
Pasco, Washington, USA
Not to defend the po-po.... but 8-9 shots by 8-9 guys is 70some shots.. that can happen in 1-2 seconds of seeing a guy with an AR.

Now, why they were there in the first place is what I want to know.

I get your point, but I think your math is off. I don't see how one person could get 8-9 shots off in 1-2 seconds, unless they're using a full auto. On top of that, 8-9 officers doing the exact same thing at the exact same time is unjustifiable. I don't see this as anything but EXCESSIVE USE OF FORCE.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County

coolusername2007

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2009
Messages
1,659
Location
Temecula, California, USA
We also need to remember how police are being trained today...

Recently, while listening to the "Gun Talk" podcast, I heard the host, Tom Gresham (a well-respected shooting sports journalist) talking about attending an LEO training session out west. He said that the command they use to tell people on the firing line to start shooting is for the range officer to shout "GUN"...

So cops are being trained to reflexively open fire when they hear someone yell "gun".


I would suspect that this training convention is coming from the top--the VERY top--of the LEO community. And by the "top", I mean the US DOJ.

Such a training convention goes a LONG way to explain why we're seeing the sort of things like this Pima incident, and the way that LE in Philly behave.

Pavlov would be proud...

That's real comforting. Just the kind of training that would make any Brady kool-aid drinker proud. :rolleyes:

Maybe we should find out what word they use and make them change from "gun" to "threat" or some other short descriptive better suited to real dangers and not made up ones.
 

hermannr

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,327
Location
Okanogan Highland
Sounds like the cops were acting on speculation. "no one person was named in the warrant". That does not sound like something that needed a SWAT team to me.

Oh, I know, they spent all that money on training, level III+ body armor and fully automatic M16's, now they needed an excuse to go try them out.
 
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