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Thread: Harassed By St. Joe PD

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    Regular Member Reverend BCal's Avatar
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    Harassed By St. Joe PD

    Let's see how I can condense this without leaving anything out...

    Yesterday my girlfriend and I were shopping at HyVee, minding our own business in the dairy aisle, when St. Joe PD Officer Friendlypants came up from behind and asked to see my ID. I politely asked him if I was doing anything illegal. He stated that I was not and that he was just investigating a MWAG call. He asked again for ID, I asked him why. He said it was to veify that I was at least 21 (He must have been misinformed on the specifics of federal law.) I informed him that I was legally able to carry a firearm and that he needed to tell me what grounds he had to ask for physical ID before I would show him anything. He kept calling me a smart @$$ and told me that I didn't need to be difficult. I asked him what law or statute gave him the power to request ID. He said that he had the right to ask for ID when investigating a call like this. I said that he could ask all he wants, but that nothing in the law compelled me to produce anything unless (per 84.710) he had RAS to believe I had committed, was committing or will commit a crime, and even then all I had to give was name, address, business abroad, etc. He told me that I was wrong and that I could either produce a physical ID or he would arrest me to obtain the info.

    ~~I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS NEXT MOVE WAS NOT NECESSARY!!~~

    I told the officer that I would VOLUNTARILY give him my name and date of birth to satisfy his "need to know." This was to prevent further frustration. He told me that what I did was NOT voluntary and that I was required to give it to him. He then told me that he was going to run my ID and if he found out I lied to him about being 21 (again, what's with this 21 thing?! C'mon! Know the law, buddy!) he would arrest me. I asked my girlfriend to hand me a MissouriOpenCarry business card, which I then gave to him. I told him that there are a lot of educational resources available on the website for him to learn about. He tried to compare the situation to only 18-year-olds being able to ride mopeds, and that gave him the authority to stop and ask for ID. I tried to tell him that unlike driving a car or concealing a weapon, I did not need a permit, but he kept interrupting me. Finally, I asked if I was free to go. He said no. I asked if I was being detained. He said no. I asked again if I was free to go and he flung the card at me and mumbled, "Take your f**kin' card, f**k off" as he stormed away.

    END VIDEO RECORDING #1!!!

    We continued to walk through the store to finish up our meager shopping list and I happened to pass him by while he was telling the story to a bunch of cashiers. He looked at me with an overly-friendly sarcastic smile and said, "Hello, Bryce." I said something like "howdy" and kept walking. As we made our way in a circle back to the front of the store to check out, I turned to find three Buchanan County Sheriff's Deputies (all Drug Strike Force...hmmm) walking up behind me with Officer Friendlypants. I stopped to turn around as one deputy pulled me aside.

    START VIDEO RECORDING #2!!!

    While I spoke with the deputies (all of whom, by the way, were MUCH more professional than the city cop) my girlfriend had a little conversation with Officer Tunn again. I'm so proud of her for standing up to him! My conversation with the deputies went unrecorded, unfortunately, but it went something like this:

    S.D: Why didn't you show your id to the officer?

    Me: He didn't provide me with ample enough reason to.

    S.D: Well, he said you came up to him with a "Go f&@% yourself attitude when he was trying to investigate.

    Me: It was most definitely the other way around. I don't like being harassed.

    S.D: What you are doing isn't illegal, we just want to make sure the scene is okay and that nothing is going on. So why don't you just show him your ID and be on the way?

    Me: Because I'm not required by law to show him my ID unless you have RAS to believe a crime is committed. This isn't Arizona or Nazi Germany. I don't have to show you my "papers" just because you ask.

    S.D: Umm, okay, we understand that. It would've saved you a bunch of time and frustration, wouldn't it have?

    Me: Well, that's not how I do business, and I'm ashamed and embarassed that St. Joe PD would believe otherwise. I'm just going to check out and be on my way.

    S.D: Nobody's asking you to leave, we just want you to know that this doesn't happen very much and we have the obligation to investigate. You can expect that again in the future, I'm sure.

    Me: That's why I came prepared THIS time You all have a nice day.

    I walked back, to Officer Friendlypants, shook his hand, apologized for any frustration I may have caused him, told him I don't like being harassed. He said he wasn't harassing me, and I just walked away.

    END VIDEO #2!!!

    I filed a verbal complaint with the officer's supervising captain this afternoon and will be sending her the videos and a detailed report this evening when I can access my email.

    VIDEO AS PROMISED!

    Initial stop by Officer Tunn
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMhOmsBR1tc

    Secondary with Sheriff's Deputies
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63u8wAGbujg
    Last edited by Reverend BCal; 05-19-2011 at 09:10 PM. Reason: Added the videos.
    "Before all else, be armed." -Nicolo Machiavelli

  2. #2
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    Full of WIN!!

    I like it!

    What's your youtube name? The same as your user name on this site?

    Dirty
    Last edited by dirty_sanchez; 05-19-2011 at 06:34 PM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Reverend BCal's Avatar
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    My girlfriend had on her phone, not mine, so I'll have to wait to upload it on youtube until I get back to my computer. Sorry!
    "Before all else, be armed." -Nicolo Machiavelli

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    Regular Member Tony4310's Avatar
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    This made me giddy like a school girl. Well done on your part! I wanna see it now lol. What is your FB name?
    Last edited by Tony4310; 05-19-2011 at 06:44 PM.

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    Regular Member Richieg150's Avatar
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    If he read the Open Carry card, he now has no excuse of not knowing that Open Carry is legal, and backed by the Missouri Constitution. Thats probably why he flung the card back at you..........as I was told once before, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse", unles your are a LEO.........
    Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
    Psalm 144:2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. Pro 14:15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Reverend BCal's Avatar
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    Well, he wasn't so pissed that I was openly carrying a firearm. He was just ANGRY ANGRY ANGRY that I wouldn't provide him with a physical ID. Grumpy man >
    "Before all else, be armed." -Nicolo Machiavelli

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    Whats your ID on Facebook?
    I'm<> James B Hatfield

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend BCal View Post
    Well, he wasn't so pissed that I was openly carrying a firearm. He was just ANGRY ANGRY ANGRY that I wouldn't provide him with a physical ID. Grumpy man >
    I watched the vids. It's unfortunate that the officer was such a jerk and so poorly versed in Missouri statutes. It's guys like him that add fuel to the stereotypes about police officers.

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    I wanna see the videos, what is the YouTube or facebook link.

    Sent from my EVO via Tapatalk pro.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Reverend BCal's Avatar
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    Bada Bing! Videos are on the original post. Enjoy!
    "Before all else, be armed." -Nicolo Machiavelli

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend BCal View Post
    Bada Bing! Videos are on the original post. Enjoy!
    Thanks

    Sent from my EVO via Tapatalk pro.

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    Regular Member Richieg150's Avatar
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    The LEO doesnt seem to know the laws he is sworn to uphold. He is wrong about checking for ID just because he sees someone Open Carrying, then saying not produceing ID is obstruction,what a bunch of crap. Get his supervisiors EMAIL and I would like to send them a email about,not knowing Missouri Statutes, St. Joseph city ordinances, and not knowing the laws they are supposed to enforce, then coming up with some bogus charge of obstruction to try to intimidate law abideing citizens. Unless the LEO"S feet are held to the flame, change will not occur,IMHO..
    Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
    Psalm 144:2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. Pro 14:15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

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    Im at a toss up with the ID thing.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    If no RAS or PC then demanding ID because someone is NOT breaking the law is ludicrous.

    Same thing was talked about just a year ago here.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-Identify-Laws

    Basically IMO, what you were involved in was a consensual conversation in which you were NOT consenting to his demands made under color of law.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 05-19-2011 at 11:48 PM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.Ē Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Kudo's to your wife. The cop seemed to be trying to get her to agree with him real hard.

    I think it looked like the officer was real sketchy on the law but had likely been schooled a little on backing off a bit when citizens assert their rights. It certainly looked to me like he really wanted to take the issue further but when confronted with polite but firm assertions of rights he seemed to become confused and unsure of what to do next.

    You handled it well but I am not sure you needed to apologize there at the end, I did not see rude behavior out of you.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Big Boy's Avatar
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    I wish the "Eff you" was more understandable on the video just to show his higher ups. I'd show the video to his supervisor and talk not only about his ignorance of the law, but his unprofessional, argumentative, and ass hole-ish demeanor.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Reverend BCal's Avatar
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    Okay, Big Boy...how's this? :)

    Ms. Rothganger,

    I apologize for the slight delay in my response. I wanted to ensure that my side of the story was portrayed as accurately as possible and that all of the facts backing up my claims were legitimate to the best of my knowledge.

    I was also not able to include the specific video evidence as attachments on this correspondence because of their file size. Instead, I have included a private link to a YouTube channel containing both videos and nothing more. Please feel free to view at your leisure.

    Unfortunately, the initial video provided here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-gjp9Iop0o ...was recorded in response to Officer Tonn's name calling and therefore doesn't specific details of him calling me an ass, an *******, and him originally threatening to arrest me for not providing a physical ID. As the video shows, though, you can hear Officer Tonn asking me 12 seconds into the video, "Why the **** are you arguing with me?" 30 seconds into the video the officer states that if I'm not over 21 he will arrest me.

    Per Federal law and the Gun Control Act of 1968, "Dealers...are forbidden from selling handguns to persons under 21, or rifles and shotguns to persons under 18." Federal law only applies to the PURCHASE from a licensed, and not ownership or possession. Missouri state law HAS NO LICENSING REQUIREMENTS for the possession of a handgun. Therefore, an "age limit" on possession can not be enforced as the officer and yourself have presented it.

    At 1:02 in the video the officer states that when he asks for ID I am required to give it to him, per state law. He then states that "It is a privilege...not a right."

    Per Section 84.710 of the Missouri Revised Statutes
    "They shall have power within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof to arrest, on view, any person they see violating or whom they have reason to suspect of having violated any law of the state or ordinance of the city. They shall have power to arrest and hold, without warrant, for a period of time not exceeding twenty-four hours, persons found within the city or on public property of the city beyond the corporate limits thereof charged with having committed felonies in other states, and who are reported to be fugitives from justice. They shall also have the power to stop any person abroad whenever there is reasonable ground to suspect that he is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime and demand of him his name, address, business abroad and whither he is going."

    Officer Tonn (and later the three Sheriff's deputies called to the scene) repeatedly stated that I had committed no crime and that I was not being detained. One can safely assume that since no crime was committed, I was not compelled at any time to produce a physical ID. Furthermore, as the last part of the quoted statute states, "...whenever there is reasonable ground to suspect that he is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime and demand of him his name, address, business abroad and whither he is going." Nowhere in this statute does is state that a physical ID is required to be on your person at all times, and nowhere does it say I have to produce my "papers" on demand. I voluntarily gave my name and date of birth, and that was more than required because, as Officer Tonn admitted, he had no "reasonable ground" to suspect I had committed any crime.

    Per the U.S. Constitution as well as the Missouri Constitution, Article 1, Section 23, "That the right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or when lawfully summoned in aid of the civil power, shall not be questioned; but this shall not justify the wearing of concealed weapons." Contrary to popular belief and backed up by Missouri state law, my openly carrying a handgun is a right and not a "privilege," as Officer Tonn worded it.

    In the second video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTCGRzS2gW0 ...Officer Tunn claims to be able to arrest me on Obstruction (of his duties as a peace officer, I assume) as per the recommendation of his supervisor. This is assuming that the officer is providing a bona fide duty while investigating a situation involving a crime. This was perceived as a scare tactic to get me to comply with the unreasonable demands of Officer Tonn. The Deputies back up the statement that I was not committing any crime, and therefore have no legal obligation to comply. Officer Tonn believed that he could bully me into taking my rights as a FELLOW citizen away by claiming some "higher authority" with no evidential facts.

    In short, I was very displeased with Officer Tonn's unprofessional demeanor, his attitude towards me, his apparent lack of knowledge for the laws that he has sworn to uphold, and his willingness to threaten me without regard to my rights. I respect Officer Tonn's job and the responsibilities he holds as an officer of the peace in St. Joseph but, I do not appreciate his approach or the manner in which he conducted himself. I hope you'll find the video evidence worthwhile in any investigation you wish to pursue, and I can only hope that any encounter I may have with the St. Joseph Police Department in the future will be handled respect for the person and the law.

    Thank you,
    Bryce Calvin



    This was forwarded to BIA as well as the supervisor's supervisor. I hope I didn't come off as too confrontational...
    "Before all else, be armed." -Nicolo Machiavelli

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    Ah ... I'm soooo glad I moved away from that hell-hole years ago.

    Sorry about your encounter. That sux. I'm anxious to hear what come of it.

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    "... Just because your boyfriend says so, doesn't mean it's true."
    Oh, that's a good one!
    How about "... Just because an officer states something as fact doesn't make it one, either?"
    Last edited by Fallschirjmäger; 05-20-2011 at 01:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirjmäger View Post
    "... Just because your boyfriend says so, doesn't mean it's true."
    Oh, that's a good one!
    How about "... Just because an officer states something as fact doesn't make it one, either?"
    She pretty much told him that.

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    In the second video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTCGRzS2gW0 ...Officer Tunn claims to be able to arrest me on Obstruction (of his duties as a peace officer, I assume) as per the recommendation of his supervisor. This is assuming that the officer is providing a bona fide duty while investigating a situation involving a crime.
    I was told this once, not all that long ago. "Officer, I'm very concerned about not obstructing you, I'll just step over way there out of your way and not say a word until you've finished your investigation. If you'd be kind enough to let me know when you're done, I appreciate it though."
    It was Not appreciated, but it was quite effective; I was on record as not wishing to obstruct and doing my level best to even stay out of his way.
    Last edited by Fallschirjmäger; 05-20-2011 at 03:12 PM.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjšger's Avatar
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    I knew I had to have more than 9 posts ...
    Now if I can just get the message board to accept Fallschirmjšger instead of messing up the formatting.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjšger; 05-20-2011 at 03:18 PM.

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    seems this LEO was an ass

  24. #24
    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    The officer was kinda right, he does have the right to ask. But it don't mean it has to be a conversation. You have to right to not say a word.
    Interesting how the deputies pull him aside from the camera...I would have declined and said no thank you I'm fine right here.
    Last edited by Motofixxer; 05-20-2011 at 03:51 PM.
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    Wow. Why am I not surprised. I really don't know what they teach police officers anymore in the academy. Maybe they need to make the academy longer. I know it's tough to fit in anything about the law when there is all that taser training and teaching them to do burn outs and everything, but this is some of the most basic stuff.

    OP handled it well. I am so tired of that cocky I know everything attitude when they clearly don't. IT DRIVES ME CRAZY. OP's girlfriend also did very well.

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