Thread: Just a quick question
Do you guys when oc'ing carry copies of city ordinances of cities that you travel with you when your carry?
I carry a letter from the city attorney of Independence, Mo stating it is perfectly legal to
open carry in Independence. I've carried it ever since a leo told me he would arrest me and take my gun if he seen me open carrying. Bring it on............
I used to. Actually I guess they are still in my wallet. But they are for cities I don't live in anymore.
If the law stated "You can open carry" I think it'd be useful to have them. But if you have an LEO ignorant enough to stand there arguing with you then showing him a piece of paper that simply just doesn't reference OC isn't going to change his mind.
Knowing the law yourself and being prepared to converse in a calm manner will probably be a stronger defense.
I have but not 100% of the time.
I think there is wisdom in doing so, however I am also aware that they are a "hole card" of sorts and i may not choose to produce them until after an officer has made it clear he is intent upon bad behavior.
It should be a slam dunk, you show that you are indeed not violating the law and it gets dropped immediately. History shows that is not the case. There also seems to be a trend within officers making stops that when confronted with the simple fact that they are indeed wrong, they bull up in a huge way and start looking for other ways, more questioning to get anything, absolutely anything they can pretend to have RAS on at all to explain their actions instead of simply stating they were incorrect. This particular response does seem some what proportional to the age of the citizen engaged.
The biggest key is to let the officer know in no uncertain terms, you know your rights, you are indeed going to pursue your rights if he crosses the line.
This is best done with polite resistance and courteous behavior. A recent situation happened in Maplewood and another in a couple of years back in St Charles are available on youtube. I would suggest watching them both, one is audio only, the other is good video. Compare the citizens responses and the officers reactions and actions.
The one in Maplewood mo:
Officer: got any ID buddy?
Citizen: I am not legally required to give that to you (or something close to that, listen to the audio if you want a better understanding but do NOT depend upon the news media's "transcript" of it, they had an agenda)
The real issue is not the legality in this situation, though it should be. I personally think that it is an accurate statement by the citizen, however, it started the "road side court" session and a citizen will rarely "win" such a debate. The old and abused "you may beat the rap but your not going to beat the ride" applies as pathetic as that might be. I think it is VERY clear in the audio engagement that indeed was pretty much the moment in that situation that the officer decided to arrest without regard for the legality of doing so. That is personal speculation only and I have no inside knowledge or training to qualify that with at all, take it as YOU see it.
I would offer that nothing said after that helped the citizen and it spiraled down hill from there and a legal citizen whom violated no laws took the "ride" quite likely for that single comment. Same situation but a difference in response may or may not have resulted in a different outcome, opinions shall vary.
Officer: got any ID buddy?
Citizen: Hi officer, am I being investigated for a crime of some sort? I have done nothing wrong.
Officer: We got a call about a MWAG and we have to investigate, do you have some ID?
Citizen: I do have a firearm but that's not illegal sir, I do have my ID with me, however I do not believe that you can legally demand it unless I am under suspicion of a crime. I will not be answering any more of your questions and to not consent to any searches, am I free to go?
IMHO this sets a slightly different tone to the conversation and answering all questions with "Sir I will not be answering any more of your questions and to not consent to any searches, am I free to go?" after that is recommended.
If the officer demands ID I would state it again with "Sir, it is in my pocket, I will not be answering any more of your questions and to not consent to any searches, am I free to go?" if the response is "NO" then say "I will not be answering any more of your questions and to not consent to any searches, I want to see a lawyer, am I free to go?"
Again, just my opinion but these responses clearly define politely that you know and understand your rights, you feel you are being violated, you have no intent upon assisting them with violating you by flapping your gums, and you are not resisting, obstructing or anything else, you are simply drawing the line between citizen and government and if they choose to cross it of their own free will, you may well hold them responsible for doing so later in court.
The KEY is to shut up and remain polite. This is not an easy task, this is not a guarantee that you will not get violated, it is simply one method to assert your rights without stating "I know my rights and I am going to sue you bla bla bla" which pretty much every dope dealer/criminal/ etc screams at police officers every day.
Another thread here somewhere someone stated when they saw an officers car at a quick shop they felt like a "chicken" for not going in armed because a detainment would make them late for work.
Most do not carry "to be detained" and do not consider such the act of a "chicken" but indeed a wise choice. If you are not in the proper mind set to deal with a possible detainment due to outside pressures, if it happens the additional pressure of being stopped by the police may indeed render you so nervous that you give control of your person to the officer and the results of that can be a disaster.
Carrying the laws with you may or may not help you, going into a situation with the right mindset and knowing you are going to maintain control of yourself and remain polite AND can keep your mouth shut when recommended is likely far more important that a non-legal document from your wallet that may or may not be accurate, that is for court and "the side of the road" is NEVER court, nor is it fair. Stating that you have a copy of the ordinance that makes it clear that OC is legal MAY help you in COURT as it will define that you clearly as a citizen were feeling harassed for no illegal behavior.
More info than required, opinions vary, that one is mine, your milage may vary.