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Thread: Selah, WA man shot and killed by Police

  1. #1
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Selah, WA man shot and killed by Police

    On 5/18/2011 a young man lost it and threatened several people in his home in Selah, WA just North of Yakima.
    He was shooting a shotgun and had a pistol from the house and then turned his fire upon police once they arrived.
    At one point he was running around outside in the dark and was eventually killed by YPD SWAT.

    The reason I brought this to light as we have had so many negative deadly force encounters involving Police in Washington State I thought in retro spec to post the good if such a thing can be good.

    This is the first time in it's inception in 1977 were YPD SWAT had taken a life and in this matter with no other choice at hand.
    Likely it was suicide by Cop.

    http://www.kimatv.com/news/local/122...html?tab=video
    http://www.kimatv.com/news/122365954.html
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    Regular Member maclean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    On 5/18/2011 a young man lost it and threatened several people in his home in Selah, WA just North of Yakima.
    He was shooting a shotgun and had a pistol from the house and then turned his fire upon police once they arrived.
    At one point he was running around outside in the dark and was eventually killed by YPD SWAT.

    The reason I brought this to light as we have had so many negative deadly force encounters involving Police in Washington State I thought in retro spec to post the good if such a thing can be good.

    This is the first time in it's inception in 1977 were YPD SWAT had taken a life and in this matter with no other choice at hand.
    Likely it was suicide by Cop.

    http://www.kimatv.com/news/local/122...html?tab=video
    http://www.kimatv.com/news/122365954.html
    It's still not a "good thing."

    Some YPD officer just had to kill someone, and his life is changed for it.
    Squeak!

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    Some YPD officer just had to kill someone, and his life is changed for it.
    I don't think that's a given.

    Pro-cop generalities are just as misleading as anti-cop generalities.

    SWAT in general can't be too concerned about taking lives.

    First, taking a life is a very real prospect for SWAT. They do carry guns. Are we to believe they carry those nice toys just to wave around and establish overwhelming force without actually planning (or practicing) lethal force? In abundance. At 700 rounds per minute cyclic, or 2700 fps. Are we to believe the sniper is really just planning to use his scope to study the hostage-takers features for later testimony. Are we to believe that the good SWATers are such wussies they'd be adversely affected by justifiably killing someone, and possibly saving not only their own life, but that of an innocent?

    Second, numerous SWAT have been caught in mistakes that genuinely concerned people would go to a lot of trouble to avoid making. Since it is, you know, a human life that may be taken.

    No, I don't think it is a given at all that the SWATers life is changed forever.

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    I'm sorry to say BigDave but those were a couple of the most ignorant statements I have seen in years.

    How exactly is this a good thing when a human life is lost?

    And how exactly is it that you determined it was suicide by cop?

    Could have been out of his head on drugs, could have been schizophrenic, could have been many things.

    There are a millions different factors, I am neither defending or condemning. But your statements were inappropriate at the least

    EDIT to ADD: Having read more through the story, clearly it wasn't "Suicide by COP" he was trying to escape, to flee.

    PEOPLE, read the article. Big Dave's representation of it is erroneous at best. There were no PEOPLE, there was a PERSON his mother he was holding. there were no SHOTS (1shot) there was no running around, he got in a SUV and tried to flee.

    Something change the man (mental or drug) and he snapped. The taking of his life may have been unavoidable but it wasn't a good thing. And Fleeing isn't suicide by cop. If it was we'd have a **** ton of dead speeders.
    Last edited by triehl27; 05-21-2011 at 01:38 AM.

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    Well if they had no other choice then they can justify the kill and feel better about it in the long run, he also said if such a thing can be called good, I really don't think this changed his life leave that for the Cop Dramas.
    Last edited by ApacheBunny; 05-21-2011 at 01:34 AM.
    Whoever thought switching to your sidearm was faster than reloading your rifle has never been hit in the **** with a swinging barrel.

    You cant fight the Gorgatron with your keys all... willy nilly..

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    Quote Originally Posted by triehl27 View Post
    I'm sorry to say BigDave but those were a couple of the most ignorant statements I have seen in years.

    How exactly is this a good thing when a human life is lost?

    And how exactly is it that you determined it was suicide by cop?

    Could have been out of his head on drugs, could have been schizophrenic, could have been many things.

    There are a millions different factors, I am neither defending or condemning. But your statements were inappropriate at the least
    He didn't "determine" it was suicide by cop; he said it was likely suicide by cop.

    Its a good thing in the context that it could well have prevented the death of an innocent, assuming it really was justified (things can change in an instant.) It was better than the alternatives. And, it was good compared to the shooting of the woodcarver. Are we really to expect that a poster always take pains to fully explain context and then choose exactly the right word? As in better instead of good?

    I'm not particulary a supporter of BigDave. In fact I disagree with his thinking often enough. But, even I could see that one.

  7. #7
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by triehl27 View Post
    I'm sorry to say BigDave but those were a couple of the most ignorant statements I have seen in years.

    How exactly is this a good thing when a human life is lost?

    And how exactly is it that you determined it was suicide by cop?

    Could have been out of his head on drugs, could have been schizophrenic, could have been many things.

    There are a millions different factors, I am neither defending or condemning. But your statements were inappropriate at the least

    EDIT to ADD: Having read more through the story, clearly it wasn't "Suicide by COP" he was trying to escape, to flee.

    PEOPLE, read the article. Big Dave's representation of it is erroneous at best. There were no PEOPLE, there was a PERSON his mother he was holding. there were no SHOTS (1shot) there was no running around, he got in a SUV and tried to flee.

    Something change the man (mental or drug) and he snapped. The taking of his life may have been unavoidable but it wasn't a good thing. And Fleeing isn't suicide by cop. If it was we'd have a **** ton of dead speeders.
    There are several articles concerning this incident and no I did not post all of them as I did not feel I needed to but they we have you!

    Want to nic pic wording as to ie Good, or no one else was harmed, all officers responding were able to go home that night, hmmm it was justified and not suspicious in their actions, hmmm what else could it be that YPD Swat until this day had not taken a life and by the way anyone taking a life will walk away if they are luck and will have some baggage.

    The first-arriving officers did not return fire, but they were able early on to retrieve a woman who had been detained in the home, authorities said. Three other occupants escaped unharmed before police arrived.
    http://www.yakima-herald.com/stories...selah-standoff
    As I listened to the scanner while this was going on, he kept pushing the issue and making comments to swat it was not going to be easy to take him along with his darting in and out of the house ie garage area along with in the bushes as times and shooting late at night.
    Call it what you want, I did

    ROFLMAO
    Last edited by BigDave; 05-21-2011 at 02:25 AM.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    It's still not a "good thing."

    Some YPD officer just had to kill someone, and his life is changed for it.
    Good Thing, if you look at it as all Officers that placed their life on the line and went home safe, yes a Good Thing.
    I was not referring to the concept of taking a life as a good thing, that is a shame but sometimes there is no choice.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member maclean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    SWAT in general can't be too concerned about taking lives.
    SWAT kills less people than patrol.

    Such is the very design.
    Last edited by maclean; 05-21-2011 at 02:39 AM.
    Squeak!

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    Regular Member maclean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Good Thing, if you look at it as all Officers that placed their life on the line and went home safe, yes a Good Thing.
    I was not referring to the concept of taking a life as a good thing, that is a shame but sometimes there is no choice.
    I understood you, and do not attribute ill will on your part. I was merely pointing out an alternate perspective.
    Squeak!

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    SWAT kills less people than patrol.

    Such is the very design.
    I'm pretty sure Citizen's post wasn't referring to quantity.

    Out of curiosity and intrigue do you have figures for this. (Not that I disbelieve you, mere fact that SWAT is used a lot less than patrol is easy to assume what you are saying is true) I was just curious though by ratio, how much/often lethal force is used per patrol compared to SWAT.

    E.G. 100 patrol officers....10 incidents of lethal force, average ratio 1 out of 10 used lethal force.

    20 SWAT officers......4 incidents of lethal force, average of 1 out of 5 used lethatl force (and so people don't misunderstand I pulled these numbers out of my ass they don't represent any statistics at all)
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member maclean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Out of curiosity and intrigue do you have figures for this. (Not that I disbelieve you, mere fact that SWAT is used a lot less than patrol is easy to assume what you are saying is true) I was just curious though by ratio, how much/often lethal force is used per patrol compared to SWAT.
    SWAT shootings are actually very rare because of the tactics and methods. Slow it down, control the ground, etc. Although SWAT is used more often than I think is probably required on warrant services, warrant services are not on the top of the list for shootings.

    As for stats, the DOJ tracks police shootings by type of contact.

    "Unknown Trouble" and "Disturbance" are typically near the top. Those are not SWAT calls, they are first in patrol calls.

    It has been my anecdotal experience that SWAT rarely kills anyone - which is not to say it doesn't happen.

    I do not have any ratio information.
    Squeak!

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    SWAT shootings are actually very rare because of the tactics and methods. Slow it down, control the ground, etc. Although SWAT is used more often than I think is probably required on warrant services, warrant services are not on the top of the list for shootings.

    As for stats, the DOJ tracks police shootings by type of contact.

    "Unknown Trouble" and "Disturbance" are typically near the top. Those are not SWAT calls, they are first in patrol calls.

    It has been my anecdotal experience that SWAT rarely kills anyone - which is not to say it doesn't happen.

    I do not have any ratio information.
    I think 09 Whatcom Swat was called 15 times, no deaths on either side, fortunately. Interesting you would think because of the nature of the business, SWAT would see more. Thanks.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 05-21-2011 at 03:08 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I think 09 Whatcom Swat was called 15 times, no deaths on either side, fortunately. Interesting you would think because of the nature of the business, SWAT would see more. Thanks.
    Now weigh necessity for SWAT against unjustified killings by SWAT.

    Like the little girl shot throught the head while on a couch.

    Or, the guy who thought he was being home invaded and headed to meet the invaders with a golf club but never even got close because the cops hit him with cyclic before he could really recognize it was cops.

    Or,...

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Now weigh necessity for SWAT against unjustified killings by SWAT.

    Like the little girl shot throught the head while on a couch.

    Or, the guy who thought he was being home invaded and headed to meet the invaders with a golf club but never even got close because the cops hit him with cyclic before he could really recognize it was cops.

    Or,...
    I don't feel SWAT is necessary and feel their tactics are dangerous and am very anti-militarizing any police force. No knock warrants is just asking for trouble.

    And there are many more unfortunate stories similar to what you mentioned.

    It's troubling to to see U.S. citizens treated as enemy combatants.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I don't feel SWAT is necessary and feel their tactics are dangerous and am very anti-militarizing any police force. No knock warrants is just asking for trouble.

    And there are many more unfortunate stories similar to what you mentioned.

    It's troubling to to see U.S. citizens treated as enemy combatants.
    Google OverKill The Rise of Paramilitary Police in America or similar title by Radley Balko. I think it is on Cato Institute's website. There is a link to a free .pdf on there, although the purchaseable printed version is more prominently displayed, so you have to hunt for it. Read it midday. Do not read it before bed, unless you like laying awake with your blood boiling.

    Balko tracks this stuff. We're up to about, oh I'd say, maybe 41-42 innocent people killed by SWAT, innocent and/or unjustified. Don't get me started on another aspect--that police get special treatment for their lethal "mistakes".

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Google OverKill The Rise of Paramilitary Police in America or similar title by Radley Balko. I think it is on Cato Institute's website. There is a link to a free .pdf on there, although the purchaseable printed version is more prominently displayed, so you have to hunt for it. Read it midday. Do not read it before bed, unless you like laying awake with your blood boiling.

    Balko tracks this stuff. We're up to about, oh I'd say, maybe 41-42 innocent people killed by SWAT, innocent and/or unjustified. Don't get me started on another aspect--that police get special treatment for their lethal "mistakes".
    Got it book marked..and have read it a few times. Good reminder to read it again tomorrow morning. Well...this morning damn I am up late....night y'all.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    the cops hit him with cyclic before he could really recognize it was cops.
    Cyclic? Is that a new "Secret Weapon"? How does one get hit by an Adjective. I would have thought that they would have preferred using a noun.

    Not bad though. A 15 point Scrabble Word Score. Bullet would only be 8 points.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I think cyclic is just a quicker way of saying at rapid rates for long duration.

    That's the thing with vocabulary once you learn a word it's hard not to use it.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 05-21-2011 at 12:59 PM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  20. #20
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post

    That's the thing with vocabulary once you learn a word it's hard not to use it.
    And some seem to go out of their way to use them. The "fancier" the better.
    Last edited by amlevin; 05-21-2011 at 01:16 PM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I think cyclic is just a quicker way of saying at rapid rates for long duration.

    That's the thing with vocabulary once you learn a word it's hard not to use it.

    As for "cyclic" in itself it's meaningless. I have a bolt action rifle that has a cyclic rate of 10 rounds per minute. I also have a semi-automatic rifle that has a cyclic rate of over 700 rounds per minute of I could load it fast enough. The word "cyclic" doesn't mean rapid rate or slow rate, its merely an adjective like "Miles Per Hour" or "Feet Per Second" that need the other part to make it work.

    It would be like saying that "they hit him with feet per second".

    FWIW, a cyclic is also the name for that stick a helicopter pilot uses to move the bird left, right, forward, or back. Did they hit "him" with THAT stick?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    As for "cyclic" in itself it's meaningless. I have a bolt action rifle that has a cyclic rate of 10 rounds per minute. I also have a semi-automatic rifle that has a cyclic rate of over 700 rounds per minute of I could load it fast enough. The word "cyclic" doesn't mean rapid rate or slow rate, its merely an adjective like "Miles Per Hour" or "Feet Per Second" that need the other part to make it work.

    It would be like saying that "they hit him with feet per second".

    FWIW, a cyclic is also the name for that stick a helicopter pilot uses to move the bird left, right, forward, or back. Did they hit "him" with THAT stick?
    I think that was Citizens point and he can correct me if I am wrong but that they unloaded their weapons as fast as they could.

    I bet the would hit him with that if they had it in their hand. Just don't shine flashlights at their helicopters when they are hovering over your property.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  23. #23
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Just don't shine flashlights at their helicopters when they are hovering over your property.
    Was that you?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I don't feel SWAT is necessary and feel their tactics are dangerous and am very anti-militarizing any police force. No knock warrants is just asking for trouble.

    And there are many more unfortunate stories similar to what you mentioned.

    It's troubling to to see U.S. citizens treated as enemy combatants.
    Caught this blurb on tv yesterday, think it was a COPS type show about swat... Shows the n00b being issued all his tacticool gear... $36,000 worth! M4-ish SBR, body armor, BARRETT 50 CAL! Now why does a "grunt" swat rookie need a frigging 50 cal rifle for? Implies they ALL Get a similar isssue. Think this was socal.


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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Cyclic? Is that a new "Secret Weapon"? How does one get hit by an Adjective. I would have thought that they would have preferred using a noun.

    Not bad though. A 15 point Scrabble Word Score. Bullet would only be 8 points.


    OK, you got a point there.

    Lets just say that's my accidental new word for full-auto.
    Last edited by Citizen; 05-21-2011 at 06:34 PM.

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