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Thread: Stopped by Kent PD today

  1. #1
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    Stopped by Kent PD today

    I was doing a bit of shopping at Safeway today (I go there almost daily -- it's right across the street) and as I am at the self check-out, I hear a voice say "You're scaring everyone!" in a joking tone. I turn around, and there were two Kent police officers. They approached me, and said there was a call from someone who saw me walking across the street with a gun, and had seen me enter Safeway. The officers were both being very respectful and polite. He told me he didn't care that I was OCing, and he supported my rights to, but then he said "But can I take a peak at your ID? Just to be sure you're not a felon or anything." Giving that I was on a tight time schedule, I didn't want to argue with him, so I politely said "Sure!" and handed him my ID. He ran it, as I continued checking out, and then gave it back, and thanked me.. wishing me a good evening.

    First time I've ever really been stopped by the police, asking for ID. I'm not really sure what to do from here, because the officer was very respectful and polite, but it seemed like a case of him not knowing the proper steps. What would you do if you were me?
    Last edited by Aaron1124; 05-21-2011 at 01:54 AM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Nothing you can do, you consented to giving up your 4th.

    It was good that everything was polite and respectful gotta wonder though if it would have continued that way if you had told them " I don't feel like showing my ID".
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    SNIP First time I've ever really been stopped by the police, asking for ID. I'm not really sure what to do from here, because the officer was very respectful and polite, but it seemed like a case of him not knowing the proper steps. What would you do if you were me?
    You weren't stopped by police. You were consensually contacted by police.

    Stop means detained/Terry Stopped/seized. That is to say a stop is involuntary on the part of the stop-ee.

    Glad I didn't have to read a lengthy write-up about police abusing someone's rights illegally, though.
    Last edited by Citizen; 05-21-2011 at 02:08 AM.

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    Well, by law, they can ask, but not demand, so technically, he did not violate the law, correct? Same situation as "Do you mind if I search your vehicle?"

    But don't they need some sort of RAS to stop you in the first place? On the flip side, it seems similar to pulling over Joe Blow, and asking to see if he has a valid drivers license, but not having any other reason for the stop.

    I don't know. I've been told that they can ask. I have been told they can't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    SNIP I don't know. I've been told that they can ask. I have been told they can't.
    The distinction is request (implying you can refuse what's requested) versus demand (implying you'd better comply).

    Factor in whether the law compels you to comply.

    There is 4th Amendment case law about whether consent makes legal what would otherwise be illegal, in terms of what the police do when interacting with people they are investigating or searching.

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    So it would seem that they were within their rights to ask to run my ID, and I would have been in my rights to decline. Not that it mattered much to me at the time. I just had not read any case law on that specific situation, so I wasn't 100% certain on what the legalities were/are.

  7. #7
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    Well, by law, they can ask, but not demand, so technically, he did not violate the law, correct? Same situation as "Do you mind if I search your vehicle?"

    But don't they need some sort of RAS to stop you in the first place? On the flip side, it seems similar to pulling over Joe Blow, and asking to see if he has a valid drivers license, but not having any other reason for the stop.

    I don't know. I've been told that they can ask. I have been told they can't.
    I don't believe RAS is necessary when you voluntarily give them your information.
    Especially when the officer told you before hand what he was going to do. Let the more legal eagles give a clearer answer.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  8. #8
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    So it would seem that they were within their rights to ask to run my ID, and I would have been in my rights to decline. Not that it mattered much to me at the time. I just had not read any case law on that specific situation, so I wasn't 100% certain on what the legalities were/are.
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    I am no lawyer, and I haven't read any case laws, so I don't see why I should be faulted for voluntarily showing ID. I am aware I am within my legal rights TO open carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    I am no lawyer, and I haven't read any case laws, so I don't see why I should be faulted for voluntarily showing ID. I am aware I am within my legal rights TO open carry.
    No worries. I got pounced a couple of weeks ago and it has really changed my view on the voluntary part. I totally understand your choice and I don't fault you for doing what you did. Now if they demanded it...

    Have a good one and enjoy Pugetopia!
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    He was very courteous, and politely asked if he could see it. In the midst of it, he was asking what I was carrying, and a few other questions. Maybe he did know that he couldn't demand it, and that's why he was acting in such a professional manner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    So it would seem that they were within their rights to ask to run my ID, and I would have been in my rights to decline. Not that it mattered much to me at the time. I just had not read any case law on that specific situation, so I wasn't 100% certain on what the legalities were/are.
    Water under the bridge.

    Anybody can ask you for your ID. Thus, a police officer--being an anybody--can ask.

    I don't know your state's law regarding under what circumstances cops can demand, and compel compliance, and under what circumstances. Somebody else will have to fill you in on that.

    As to knowing the letter of law--while you are having an encounter--the letter of the law about stops and identifying yourself and so forth, sometimes it doesn't matter cause the cop ain't following the law anyway. Other times, even if you know the law, you may not have enough info during the police encounter to apply that law during the encounter.

    But, we can take a cue from the court rulings about consent. And, construct a strategy that lets us protect our legal standing while not putting ourselves in legal jeopardy (lying, cheating cops excluded). For example, an uncertain or unfamiliar person in circumstances similar to yours could always politely say, "No offense, officer. I know you are probably just doing your job. I will comply with a demand for my ID, but I would not consent." Then you're covered. You comply--thus you reduce the risk of citation or arrest. But, you refuse consent in case you didn't really have to comply legally speaking.

    This video will tell you about refusing consent and whether consent automatically makes legal something done by the cop that would otherwise have been illegal for him to do, or force you to do.

    Busted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA

  13. #13
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    He was very courteous, and politely asked if he could see it. In the midst of it, he was asking what I was carrying, and a few other questions. Maybe he did know that he couldn't demand it, and that's why he was acting in such a professional manner.
    thats how they get you,,,, trick you into thinking they just want to be friends.
    and he asked of he could see it,,, didnt ask if he could Run it.
    and you were in a hurry so you gave it up,, to save time,, FAIL!
    you could have saved time by taking the advice you have read here over and over,
    dont talk to police,, say no thank you,, go about your lawful business,, thank you, bye!

    when you try to save time by giving in to unwarranted intrusions/requests/searches,
    you are training the police that their behavior is acceptable,,,
    please dont undo what OCers have been working to correct!
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    thats how they get you,,,, trick you into thinking they just want to be friends.
    and he asked of he could see it,,, didnt ask if he could Run it.
    and you were in a hurry so you gave it up,, to save time,, FAIL!
    you could have saved time by taking the advice you have read here over and over,
    dont talk to police,, say no thank you,, go about your lawful business,, thank you, bye!

    when you try to save time by giving in to unwarranted intrusions/requests/searches,
    you are training the police that their behavior is acceptable,,,
    please dont undo what OCers have been working to correct!
    Listen to this wise man!



    See how easy you made it for the officer? All he had to do was put on a smile and just ask nicely.

    If you want to practice these types of interactions, politely decline the door guys that want to see your receipt at some stores. Practice, practice, practice so you don't break your balls when the shiet goes down!


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    Regular Member maclean's Avatar
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    He asked, you said yes. Not a seizure.

    Not a surrender of your fourth amendment rights either. Consensual contacts are consensual. You can begin them or end them any time you wish.

    Nice job, good contact. Cop had a sense of humor and handled it with humor.

    The whole "ask if he could see it didn't ask if he could run it" is moronic. Anything that can be seen can be run without your specific consent in addition.

    LTNS Aaron. Hope things are well.
    Squeak!

  16. #16
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    I am no lawyer, and I haven't read any case laws, so I don't see why I should be faulted for voluntarily showing ID. I am aware I am within my legal rights TO open carry.
    Don't take it personally Aaron, and until one is actually in the situation (fortunately they were being polite) it's hard to relate to the experience from the receiving end. I too surrendered ID at one time voluntarily. I don't fault you for it just would strongly encourage you not to.

    I no longer do, to me it enables the officers viewpoint that those who don't are being "confrontational" and "uncooperative". Yet if everyone took a stand and politely yet firmly refused consent than officers would have to learn how to "let it go". What was it 40 minutes of hammering Brewster before he finally gave in? Basically to stop the harassment?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  17. #17
    Regular Member maclean's Avatar
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    Refusing ID isn't uncooperative or confrontational.

    It isn't even particularly douchebaggy.
    Last edited by maclean; 05-21-2011 at 03:04 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    Refusing ID isn't uncooperative or confrontational.

    It isn't even particularly douchebaggy.
    You guys kill me...
    Freedom can never be lost, only given away by ignorance, by choice, or at the point of a gun. Here in America we can still choose.

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  19. #19
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    well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    He asked, you said yes. Not a seizure.

    Not a surrender of your fourth amendment rights either. Consensual contacts are consensual. You can begin them or end them any time you wish.

    Nice job, good contact. Cop had a sense of humor and handled it with humor.

    The whole "ask if he could see it didn't ask if he could run it" is moronic. Anything that can be seen can be run without your specific consent in addition.

    LTNS Aaron. Hope things are well.


    "But can I take a peak at your ID? Just to be sure you're not a felon or anything."

    asking for a peak,, is part of the trickery,
    but its None Of Their Business if i am a felon or anything!!!
    the 5th amendment was written specifically to protect a felon from helping the police find that out!!
    if i was a felon or had a warrant it would be my right and duty to hide that fact from the cops!

    That the law,,, it is not Moronic.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    thats how they get you,,,, trick you into thinking they just want to be friends.
    and he asked of he could see it,,, didnt ask if he could Run it.
    and you were in a hurry so you gave it up,, to save time,, FAIL!
    you could have saved time by taking the advice you have read here over and over,
    dont talk to police,, say no thank you,, go about your lawful business,, thank you, bye!

    when you try to save time by giving in to unwarranted intrusions/requests/searches,
    you are training the police that their behavior is acceptable,,,
    please dont undo what OCers have been working to correct!
    Actually he did ask if he could run it to "check to see" if I was a felon. I just forgot to add it in my post. And why is it such a problem if I consented to it? I have no obligations to do it, even though I am within my rights not to. I don't see any harm being done by me consenting to this. Not all police officers have an agenda against a firearm carrying citizen.
    Last edited by Aaron1124; 05-21-2011 at 03:17 AM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    Refusing ID isn't uncooperative or confrontational.

    It isn't even particularly douchebaggy.
    Ok now that was funny.

    Better let BPD know . (After thought they did get mine, though. They don't pick on me for the gun directly now although I caught them following me a few times. When I was on foot.

    Don't smile at officer Bass he'll write down in his report and describe it as a "Bizarre Grin".
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  22. #22
    Regular Member maclean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Ok now that was funny.

    Better let BPD know . (After thought they did get mine, though. They don't pick on me for the gun directly now although I caught them following me a few times. When I was on foot.

    Don't smile at officer Bass he'll write down in his report and describe it as a "Bizarre Grin".
    Dunno BPD.

    Being on foot is better than behind the wheel, eh?

    (From a search and seizure standpoint, that is.)
    Last edited by maclean; 05-21-2011 at 03:27 AM.
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  23. #23
    Regular Member maclean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    "But can I take a peak at your ID? Just to be sure you're not a felon or anything."

    asking for a peak,, is part of the trickery,
    but its None Of Their Business if i am a felon or anything!!!
    the 5th amendment was written specifically to protect a felon from helping the police find that out!!
    if i was a felon or had a warrant it would be my right and duty to hide that fact from the cops!

    That the law,,, it is not Moronic.
    Being able to refuse is not in question.

    You suggesting they can't ask is the moronic part.
    Squeak!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean View Post
    He asked, you said yes. Not a seizure.

    Not a surrender of your fourth amendment rights either. Consensual contacts are consensual. You can begin them or end them any time you wish.

    Nice job, good contact. Cop had a sense of humor and handled it with humor.

    The whole "ask if he could see it didn't ask if he could run it" is moronic. Anything that can be seen can be run without your specific consent in addition.

    LTNS Aaron. Hope things are well.
    After review of everything, it doesn't seem like an unnecessary experience at all. The cops were super cool, with a good sense of humor. They had no intentions of harassing me at all.

    It's been a little while since I've been on the forum. I've been pretty wrapped up. I am currently in the midst of the application process with Port of Seattle PD and SCORE Jail.

  25. #25
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    I also don't see how respectfully asking for ID is unacceptable behavior.

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