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Thread: another phily story on OC they are going to check you papers

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    Regular Member quarter horseman's Avatar
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    another phily story on OC they are going to check you papers


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    And? Show em your papers,keep em calm, and carry on. Right,wrong, or PITA though it may be, you are in a hostile environment-adapt until it gets set right.
    Dont be a moron like the one in the story,and agitate the cop-esp. if he's already a candyasss,agitated and pointing his gun at you.That is NOT the time to be trying to "educate" the cop.
    Do it after the fact, and take it up with his superiors, or in court, if need be.
    Common sense: both rare commodities.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    And? Show em your papers,keep em calm, and carry on. Right,wrong, or PITA though it may be, you are in a hostile environment-adapt until it gets set right.
    Dont be a moron like the one in the story,and agitate the cop-esp. if he's already a candyasss,agitated and pointing his gun at you.That is NOT the time to be trying to "educate" the cop.
    Do it after the fact, and take it up with his superiors, or in court, if need be.
    Common sense: both rare commodities.
    Listen to the audio. The OCer immediately offered to show the cop his permit, but the cop was adamant that OC was illegal despite any permit. Even the Chief of Police admits that his cops were not sufficiently aware of the law -- which has allowed open carry SINCE 1996. This was an illegal stop that was not based on RAS or PC, but only on the cop's ignorance of the law. The cop's behavior and language was over the top and we should all hope that the IA investigation will not white-wash his actions. I wonder when the Mayor of Philadelphia will get weary of all of the substantiated stories about the unprofessionalism of his police department...

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    And? Show em your papers,keep em calm, and carry on. Right,wrong, or PITA though it may be, you are in a hostile environment-adapt until it gets set right.
    Dont be a moron like the one in the story,and agitate the cop-esp. if he's already a candyasss,agitated and pointing his gun at you.That is NOT the time to be trying to "educate" the cop.
    Do it after the fact, and take it up with his superiors, or in court, if need be.
    Common sense: both rare commodities.
    "...Lt. Raymond Evers, a spokesman for the city police, told FoxNews.com that gun owners who open carry, which is legal in the city, may be asked to lay on the ground until officers feel safe while they check permits..."

    That is taken from the article. I have an issue with being told to lay on the ground "until the officers feel safe" as I'm not a dog. I also don't believe having me lay down on the ground would be a lawful order, but instead would be excessive use of force for the situation. Additionally while I don't agree with the stop, I understand that it is lawful and therefore would comply with it. The issue (in regards to the cops) is in how the stop is conducted.

    And just because a cop is agitated/upset/whatever doesn't mean that one should roll over and be compliant. That's like telling someone who is being raped that they shouldn't resist their attacker and instead should just take it and then press for damages afterwards. The person in the article reasonably stood his ground as he was right and he didn't allow himself to be scared of the cops. You might not agree with it, but I applaud him for being able to stand up for himself as he did in that type of a situation.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    "...Lt. Raymond Evers, a spokesman for the city police, told FoxNews.com that gun owners who open carry, which is legal in the city, may be asked to lay on the ground until officers feel safe while they check permits..."

    That is taken from the article. I have an issue with being told to lay on the ground "until the officers feel safe" as I'm not a dog. I also don't believe having me lay down on the ground would be a lawful order, but instead would be excessive use of force for the situation. Additionally while I don't agree with the stop, I understand that it is lawful and therefore would comply with it. The issue (in regards to the cops) is in how the stop is conducted.

    And just because a cop is agitated/upset/whatever doesn't mean that one should roll over and be compliant. That's like telling someone who is being raped that they shouldn't resist their attacker and instead should just take it and then press for damages afterwards. The person in the article reasonably stood his ground as he was right and he didn't allow himself to be scared of the cops. You might not agree with it, but I applaud him for being able to stand up for himself as he did in that type of a situation.
    What made the 'stop' legal in your opinion? The citizen was walking along a public thoroughfare in a completely legal condition. The cop had no RAS or PC to stop him, anymore than he would have had stopping a driver to see if they had a valid license to drive.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    And? Show em your papers,keep em calm, and carry on. Right,wrong, or PITA though it may be, you are in a hostile environment-adapt until it gets set right.
    Dont be a moron like the one in the story,and agitate the cop-esp. if he's already a candyasss,agitated and pointing his gun at you.That is NOT the time to be trying to "educate" the cop.
    Do it after the fact, and take it up with his superiors, or in court, if need be.
    Common sense: both rare commodities.
    Don't fight being raped work it out later in court if need be..........

    Once you consent it is hard to defend your self later in court even if you were only consenting to make the encounter a little more unpleasant.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 05-21-2011 at 01:05 PM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Just plain common-sense,is all. Right, wrong or otherwise, unless/until they get it sorted out-what's the smarter play? (your own feelings about wanting to stop or not)
    Agitate a candyasss officer who's already exhibiting a high amount of stress (listen to his voice on that audio-that's not the sound of a guy in control of himself or his anxieties) esp. if he has already drawn out on you?
    Or keep your cool, man-up and deal with it, and once he's gotten his assurance that you have id/permit etc, get the officer's info-get an att'y, and take it up with his highers at a later point?
    The clown in the audio (not video,convenient enough) ranting and carrying on in an attempt to correct or "educate" the officer was only making things worse.And making himself-to the officers-look like a smartass.
    Personally, If Im pointing my pistol at you,demanding some kind of compliance, and your silly enough to argue with me about it, Im inclined to think maybe youre not too stable.So why should a cop-who's used to having his authority and such-be inclined to think anything else either?
    The officer has the badge, the gun and the authority. At the time something like this goes down, you can be pretty sure his word is what's going to carry the day-for the moment.
    Let his superiors re-educate his ignorant self and possibly reprimand the guy.

  8. #8
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Plain common sense would be for the officer to leave you alone if you are not doing anything illegal.

    Nice try at trying to insinuate those who don't immediately capitulate to officers demands are mentally challenged.

    The more proper course is for officers to start respecting the supreme law of the land, which applies to them not to citizens. Yet if we continue to give in to their demands this enables their unlawful behavior and encourages further bullying and lack of respect of the people they encounter.

    Now in no way do I encourage physically resisting........at this current time.....
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    And? Show em your papers,keep em calm, and carry on. Right,wrong, or PITA though it may be, you are in a hostile environment-adapt until it gets set right.
    Dont be a moron like the one in the story,and agitate the cop-esp. if he's already a candyasss,agitated and pointing his gun at you.That is NOT the time to be trying to "educate" the cop.
    Do it after the fact, and take it up with his superiors, or in court, if need be.
    Common sense: both rare commodities.
    Excuse ME!!! The Cop was the MORON, He had No Right to use and threaten "DEADLY FORCE". The pointing of a firearm at someone and threatening to use it, is DEADLY FORCE!!!
    The mere presence of a firearm does not mean a crime is being committed. Does that mean every person driving a car is stopped to be checked for a License?
    If the cop is scared of firearms he should find a new line of work. How Can I say This? Well I spent over thirty years of my life as Wildlife Officer, ie Game Warden, so people have firearms and the point is, I agree don't get complacent, but the public is not the enemy.

    j4l after reading your posts, The ONLY CLOWN IS YOU!!!!!
    Last edited by Rattrapper; 05-21-2011 at 01:39 PM.

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    And you folks actually wonder why it's difficult to get OC passed for some of us in states where we are having difficulty getting it?
    On top of the idiocy we have to contend with at the legislative level, we've got yahoos out there attempting to prove points of some kind or other,and trying to take it upon themselves to "educate" cops. Especially when they know full well they are living/OCing in an area where LE is hostile to the concept.
    Im not saying surrender or give in-BUT. Stop carrying on like ranting lunatics and inciting such nonesne.
    Yes, ok, some of the cops may not be hip to it, may outright oppose it, or just plain claim ignorance-take it up with the Dept- at the command levels, not on the street with the Barney Fifes..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rattrapper View Post
    Excuse ME!!! The Cop was the MORON, He had No Right to use and threaten "DEADLY FORCE". The pointing of a firearm at someone and threatening to use it, is DEADLY FORCE!!!
    The mere presence of a firearm does not mean a crime is being committed. Does that mean every person driving a car is stopped to be checked for a License?
    If the cop is scared of firearms he should find a new line of work. How Can I say This? Well I spent over thirty years of my life as Wildlife Officer, ie Game Warden, so people have firearms and the point is, I agree don't get complacent, but the public is not the enemy.
    Dont disagree with you at all-its why i called him a CANDYASSS. He's an idiot,that;s a given. But when you are confronted with an idiot on the street who's armed, is pointing a gun at you, and has a badge and legal authority over you-how much sense does it take to clam up,and get past it.
    One of these days,some unstable idiot like this is going to end up shooting and or killing one of these clowns.
    And no, the clown wont end up being some kind of martyr for the cause. You know full-well how the media will spin it, and how much damage it will do to the cause.

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    Hey j4l, Are one of those that believes cops are right and everyone else is wrong?

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    Not in the least. Ive had issues of my own with some-not all, in unrelated matters.
    There's going to be Barney Fife on every Police force out there, it's a given.
    What Im saying is post after post after post after post of this kind of nonsense is accomplishing little to nothing more than providing the anti's with more and more ammo to use against us.
    There are smarter,more level-headed approaches to take. This crap just plays right into the hands of those who call us "gun nuts" .

    How long will it be do you think, before someone like Big Sister at DHS takes a qoute like
    "Now in no way do I encourage physically resisting........at this current time..... "

    -out of context, and starts labeling gun-nuts as "potential terrorists" and begins treating us as such.

    Scan just the 1st page or two of any section on this forum. Count how many posts of this sort there are. It is the re-curring and over-riding theme page after page.
    Can we not -between us-come up with better, more thought-out, level-headed approaches to sorting these things out?

    There are no Rosa Parks, or Martin Kings or Paul Reveres in here, no matter how well intended, or sincere one's feelings on the topic. So the "lets get on video having our asses handed to us while looking like raving lunatics" bit is going to do more harm to the cause we all want, than anything.
    It's already biting us on the ass in States like Florida, where we've tried to get OC, and got shafted. Cops are using this kind of crap(among other things)-to justify their lobbying against our efforts-and winning.
    It's already hard enough to convince law-makers who are squeemish about even CC,much less OC when they are show comments like these on here-(and yes, they read them too) and see these kinds of vids,debates etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Don't fight being raped work it out later in court if need be..........

    Once you consent it is hard to defend your self later in court even if you were only consenting to make the encounter a little more unpleasant.
    Bit of a drama queen are we? Being asked for ID and checked to see if you are legally carrying the arm, isnt quiet the same as being raped.

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    and- are you sure you really want that out there for them to see?

    "Now in no way do I encourage physically resisting........at this current time..... "

    Fight smart,folks.Not hard.

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    Tell ya what though. How about a sollution, rather than criticism, before any more of you get your panties in a wad.
    How about instead of always wasting our time whining and crying and trying to "bust" cops for this stuff, and begging and grovelling before our law-makers to legalize things, we try this instead:

    Instead of trying to fix things with this bottom-up approach- we try a top-down approach?
    Get some candidates from amongst us-or step up and take the plunge yourselves, and get on the ballot for local or State office for your area.
    The same amount of time spend bitching and moaning on a message board, or wandering the streets with cameras and recorders looking for cops to piss off, could be spent instead volunteering for, and supporting a potential candidate to office.
    One to whom you dont have to convince,beg or grovel,because they want the same thing you do?
    Then IF (and yes,of course it's a long-shot) He/She gets elected-(and even better if you get X# from as many districts as possible to do the same) you begin to make the changes we need from up top.
    Opposition anti's in Senate/House offices, or city councils? Replace them. Overthrow them-at the ballots. For all the talk about our "rights" I see entirely too few willing to step up and excersize the most important one of all.
    Once you're in, and the legislation is being written-include in it specific instructions to LEO's NOT to conduct themselves as they have, and lay out specific penalties for failing to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    What made the 'stop' legal in your opinion? The citizen was walking along a public thoroughfare in a completely legal condition. The cop had no RAS or PC to stop him, anymore than he would have had stopping a driver to see if they had a valid license to drive.
    Because as far as I'm aware they are able to lawfully stop someone there to make sure they have papers. As in, there is a law that specifically says they can. Now I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean it was unlawful unless you want to make the claim that the law which allows them to do so is unconstitutional.

    In regards to checking drivers licenses, as there is no law to allow the government to do so, it is unlawful. As laws define what the government can do, and what the citizens can't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Just plain common-sense,is all. Right, wrong or otherwise, unless/until they get it sorted out-what's the smarter play? (your own feelings about wanting to stop or not)
    Agitate a candyasss officer who's already exhibiting a high amount of stress (listen to his voice on that audio-that's not the sound of a guy in control of himself or his anxieties) esp. if he has already drawn out on you?
    Or keep your cool, man-up and deal with it, and once he's gotten his assurance that you have id/permit etc, get the officer's info-get an att'y, and take it up with his highers at a later point?
    The clown in the audio (not video,convenient enough) ranting and carrying on in an attempt to correct or "educate" the officer was only making things worse.And making himself-to the officers-look like a smartass.
    Personally, If Im pointing my pistol at you,demanding some kind of compliance, and your silly enough to argue with me about it, Im inclined to think maybe youre not too stable.So why should a cop-who's used to having his authority and such-be inclined to think anything else either?
    The officer has the badge, the gun and the authority. At the time something like this goes down, you can be pretty sure his word is what's going to carry the day-for the moment.
    Let his superiors re-educate his ignorant self and possibly reprimand the guy.
    And given that the person wasn't shot I would say that he reasonably resisted. And the cop doesn't have the "authority" to act illegal unless you're also saying that "might makes right" in the heat of the moment.

    Also even if you're pointing a gun at someone just because they don't listen to you doesn't mean they're unstable. We are talking about a cop, who is "supposed" to be different than a criminal. And the person in question was trying to reasonably disarm the situation. Not his fault that the cop wasn't reasonable and he shouldn't be attacked for standing up for himself even if you wouldn't of done it that way.

    After all, should Rosa Parks of moved to the back of the bus and simply gone to court after being threatened to be forcibly removed from the bus? Or what about any other peaceful resistance to illegal/tyrannical force? Should they simply roll over and seek their changes elsewhere? Eventually you have to make a "stand" for your rights and what you believe in or know to be right. He chose this spot, and is still alive so I would say he was successful. Not to mention all this media coverage has the whole nation talking and could very well lead to meaningful change; something that wouldn't be happening had he simply complied.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    "That is taken from the article. I have an issue with being told to lay on the ground "until the officers feel safe" as I'm not a dog.

    Ah, therein lies the rub (to quote Shakespeare)...

    In fact, you ARE a dog--or at least something slightly less than a human--in the eyes of those who make and enforce the Law. There are a myraid of laws on the books in PA (and EVERY other state as well) that refer to "Humans and other animals". Under the letter of the law, you ARE an animal, to be controlled, corralled, commanded, trained, and if necessary put down.

    This dehumanizing behavior on the part of the PPD is nothing more than "puppy training", to condition the populace that ANYONE with a gun who doesn't have a badge is a criminal, and will be treated as such.

    When innocent bystanders see a lawful OCer being persecuted and harassed by PPD, they dont see a lawful person being unjustly persecuted--they see a guy with a gun being jacked by the police, and they will ASSUME he did something wrong, and that having an OCed firearm is ILLEGAL--why else would the police be screaming and waving their guns if it was OK?

    People who are not "awake", or not part of 1A and 2A activism generally have NO CLUE as to the TRUE nature of the Law, and tend to perceive such situations as justified, legal, and completely reasonable.

    "A guy with a gun walking around the streets of Philly--he's got to be a criminal of some sort, right? He probably is guilty of SOMETHING..."

    That is the Pavlovian response the PPD and the City government are attempting to inculcate into the minds of the Citizenry. They have VERY successfully programmed the public in other jurisdictions--Chicago, Maryland, New Jersey, California. Philly is just a "gateway" to attack the rest of PA, and ultimately the rest of the mid-Atlantic region, to bring them all in line with NY, MD and DC. This attitude is like a metastisizing cancer--it starts in small, isolated locations, and then spread like a disease to all adjacent areas unless it is vigorously and aggressively stopped through a focused, concerted course of treatment. And our greatest weapon in fighting this disease is the Truth--of Human Rights, of Personal Sovereignty, and of the fact that Government is SUPPOSED to be the Servant of the People...

    Dog training--that is all this is. And they do it because they actually believe--in their heart of hearts--that you and ALL citizens who aren't badged or elected--ARE in fact, something slightly less than completely human. That's why they can do what they do--they don't see you as a "real human", and therefore they have no problem in their minds and hearts treating you like a rabid dog or a wild horse.

    Dominate, secure, domesticate.

    This is their MO. And it is soon to be SOP nationwide--if the training coming from the US DOJ to major urban LEAs is any indication...

    The US is not in danger of becoming a "police state"... It already is...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 05-21-2011 at 03:04 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    And given that the person wasn't shot I would say that he reasonably resisted. And the cop doesn't have the "authority" to act illegal unless you're also saying that "might makes right" in the heat of the moment.

    Also even if you're pointing a gun at someone just because they don't listen to you doesn't mean they're unstable. We are talking about a cop, who is "supposed" to be different than a criminal. And the person in question was trying to reasonably disarm the situation. Not his fault that the cop wasn't reasonable and he shouldn't be attacked for standing up for himself even if you wouldn't of done it that way.

    After all, should Rosa Parks of moved to the back of the bus and simply gone to court after being threatened to be forcibly removed from the bus? Or what about any other peaceful resistance to illegal/tyrannical force? Should they simply roll over and seek their changes elsewhere? Eventually you have to make a "stand" for your rights and what you believe in or know to be right. He chose this spot, and is still alive so I would say he was successful. Not to mention all this media coverage has the whole nation talking and could very well lead to meaningful change; something that wouldn't be happening had he simply complied.

    Problem with this is simply this: the only "talk" it is really generating is talk of "omg why did that guy even have a gun?" and "look at the gun nut" Yes, plenty in here talk about it, be we have a particular bias dont we? John Q. Sheeple, however gets his bias FROM the media-most of whom will twist it, as they always have-to the anti point of view.
    Hence-counter productive.

    RUN,vote or support those favorable to us who will. Man up, Put up, or Shut up.
    But stop already with the whacky stunts on audio/video that only shoot us in our own feet.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Bit of a drama queen are we? Being asked for ID and checked to see if you are legally carrying the arm, isnt quiet the same as being raped.
    You are right.

    The stink of rape can be washed off with soap and antiseptics. And when a rapist is done, he leaves you alone and goes away.

    The stench of tyranny can only be cleansed with a liquid more sanguine, and tyrants only INCREASE their assaults once you comply...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    It would be nice if the officers were held accountable for ignorance of the law the same as an average citizen. I am sure that there will be a member of the law enforcement community along shortly to tell us how the citizen was wrong and that I have a crappy attitude wanting to bash the police.
    If Obama is the answer; how stupid was the question?

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Just plain common-sense,is all. Right, wrong or otherwise, unless/until they get it sorted out-what's the smarter play? (your own feelings about wanting to stop or not)
    Agitate a candyasss officer who's already exhibiting a high amount of stress (listen to his voice on that audio-that's not the sound of a guy in control of himself or his anxieties) esp. if he has already drawn out on you?
    Or keep your cool, man-up and deal with it, and once he's gotten his assurance that you have id/permit etc, get the officer's info-get an att'y, and take it up with his highers at a later point?
    The clown in the audio (not video,convenient enough) ranting and carrying on in an attempt to correct or "educate" the officer was only making things worse.And making himself-to the officers-look like a smartass.
    Personally, If Im pointing my pistol at you,demanding some kind of compliance, and your silly enough to argue with me about it, Im inclined to think maybe youre not too stable.So why should a cop-who's used to having his authority and such-be inclined to think anything else either?
    The officer has the badge, the gun and the authority. At the time something like this goes down, you can be pretty sure his word is what's going to carry the day-for the moment.
    Let his superiors re-educate his ignorant self and possibly reprimand the guy.
    So ignorance of the law is an excuse if you are a cop? That's sad.

    Open carry has ALWAYS been legal in PA, before 1995, one was not required to have an LTCF to open carry in Philly, that law (18 Sec. 6108) was added in 1995.

    He immediately offered up his LTCF, the cop was telling him it was illegal, what else should Mark have done?

    Furthermore, he offered to show his drivers license as well, he does not have to do that. Pennsylvania only required that one carries the actual LTCF or a reciprocial license if you are carrying under the authority of the license, a drivers license is not ok.

    Delaware v Prouse was clear, they can't pull you over to see if you have a drivers license so the same logic should apply in Philly for wearing a firearm.

    He had every right to record, you can't be too safe these days. He was violated a couple of times in the past by these goons. These cops are whining that they were set up. Can drug dealers argue that they were set up in a sting operation?
    Last edited by Jared; 05-21-2011 at 04:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Problem with this is simply this: the only "talk" it is really generating is talk of "omg why did that guy even have a gun?" and "look at the gun nut" Yes, plenty in here talk about it, be we have a particular bias dont we? John Q. Sheeple, however gets his bias FROM the media-most of whom will twist it, as they always have-to the anti point of view.
    Hence-counter productive.

    RUN,vote or support those favorable to us who will. Man up, Put up, or Shut up.
    But stop already with the whacky stunts on audio/video that only shoot us in our own feet.
    Are you kidding me? Most of the reports and comments on this have been that the cops were completely out of line and something should be done about it. Now a decent amount (but nowhere near 50%) do say that the victim likely should have just complied, but even most of those posts put most of the blame and outrage on the officers actions. And then there's plenty of people talking about how the DA is just trying to use his power to intimidate the guy rather than going after the illegal actions of the officers.

    And there's multiple ways to skin a deer. You can very easily vote for people who will help while at the same time take other actions to help further the cause. And this action along with others have NOT shot us in the foot (though some indeed have). Instead they have helped highlight to even more people the issues of LEOs abusing power and helped cast a decent light on the subject.

    But you can keep championing for people to only try to change things your way and that they should just bow down to cops regardless of how wrong/illegal the cops are. After all, you can always use the courts to gain restitution later...Oh yea that's also the same arguement the INSC used to basically nullify the 4A.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    , , Kernersville NC
    Posts
    783
    OC is strictly a civil rights issue. I dont OC because Im a "gun nut" Its for personal protection sure, but cc is also. Mark did the correct thing, and I have nothing but respect for police officers, but they are human too and not to be put on some "above the law" pedistal. If OC is legal then it is period. If you live in a state that has unconstitutional rule then they need to be changed. The PD in states where its legal need to be educated. Just because someone has a holstered firearm on their hip does NOT assume there is a crime being commited. Here in NC Im not real crazy about licence check points. Im not sure what they are all obout but I do think its a violation of our civil liberties. OC is nothing different then that. The voice recorder is to protect us from LIES. Cops do lie believe it or not and if Mark didnt record ,the cops would have lied fore sure. Like I said,they are human too and want to protect their job.

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