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Thread: in the car carry on army corps run parks??

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    in the car carry on army corps run parks??

    i just found out that barren river state park is run by the army corps of engineers, they have posted no firearms signs through out the park. my question is can i go to the park and keep my gun in my car?, or can they restrict me from carrying in my car on park property? a friend of mine has said if my car is on park property they can, but i think my car is my property. thanks for any help.

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    The quick answer is in 36 CFR 327.13.
    327.13 Explosives, firearms, other weapons and fireworks.
    (a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is prohibited unless:
    (1) In the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement officer;
    (2) Being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under 327.8, with devices being unloaded when transported to, from or between hunting and fishing sites;
    (3) Being used at authorized shooting ranges; or
    (4) Written permission has been received from the District Commander.
    (b) Possession of explosives or explosive devices of any kind, including fireworks or other pyrotechnics, is prohibited unless written permission has been received from the District Commander.

    First question: how are they going to know?

    CoE rules only prohibit loaded guns, so that's easy enough to work around. And soon, hopefully, this will be moot, since H.R. 1865 seeks to force the CoE to recognize gun rights just like the National Park Service now has to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    The quick answer is in 36 CFR 327.13.



    First question: how are they going to know?

    CoE rules only prohibit loaded guns, so that's easy enough to work around. And soon, hopefully, this will be moot, since H.R. 1865 seeks to force the CoE to recognize gun rights just like the National Park Service now has to.
    Technically, that law makes a distinction for ammunition, so you would still be in violation even if you kept the ammunition out of the gun. Had they ommited that, you would have your loophole.

    However I didnt know about that bill, will have to keep on eye on it.

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    The Army CoE has always "come strong to the microphone" with their regulations, but they would for the most part have to depend on the help of REAL law enforcement agencies to protect their dams and such from vandalism/terrorism. Most all of them are in remote areas and the first responders would likely be county or state police, in most state parks that's certainly the case.

    Personally I see the CoE signs and shake my head, but play along by staying off their dams proper whilst carrying my legally toted gun. And I further cooperate by not leaving charges of high explosives in or on the dams either...
    Last edited by Brian D.; 05-22-2011 at 07:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boomer92266 View Post
    i just found out that barren river state park is run by the army corps of engineers, they have posted no firearms signs through out the park. my question is can i go to the park and keep my gun in my car?, or can they restrict me from carrying in my car on park property? a friend of mine has said if my car is on park property they can, but i think my car is my property. thanks for any help.
    This is a state park owned and operated by the Commonwealth of Kentucky. The Corps of Engineers have no juridictional rights to the state property. The dam is owned an operated by the US Government and Corps of Engineers. They have descretion on carry there, but no where on state property. Just because a sign is posted doesnt give it the weight of enforcement. I carry at the state parks on Cumberland Lake and Dale Hollow. No problems ever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
    This is a state park owned and operated by the Commonwealth of Kentucky. The Corps of Engineers have no juridictional rights to the state property. The dam is owned an operated by the US Government and Corps of Engineers. They have descretion on carry there, but no where on state property. Just because a sign is posted doesnt give it the weight of enforcement. I carry at the state parks on Cumberland Lake and Dale Hollow. No problems ever.
    What court precedence are you basing this on? The ACoE is responsible for the care of many lakes and waterways, federal funding goes into this upkeep and as such they claim jurisdiction. I have family at Nolin and I can promise you the ACoE controls more than just the dam, they control the whole lake and even so far up the banks to what is referred to as the "red line".

    Just because youve had no problems does not mean the potential for one does not exist. Even if youve come across LE, that still means nothing. A LEO can choose to not enforce a law just as well as they can try to pretend one exists.

    Follow this advice at your own peril.

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    Paintsville Lake/Dam & Dewey Lake/Dam

    Locally we have 2 lakes; Paintsville Lake & Dewey Lake, both with their respective Dams. These two lakes though within about 15 miles of one another are 2 totally different beasts.

    Just outside of Paintsville, you encounter the Paintsville Dam first and it has the typical ACoE signage of NO ALCOHOL & NO FIREARMS! You have to travel through this area to reach Paintsville Lake. To be quite honest Paintsville Lake really has little to offer people as it's primarily a lake for fishing, RV & tent camping, and home to The Kentucky Homeplace; a step back in time to the 1800's.

    Just outside of Prestonsburg, you encounter the Dewey Lake & Dewey Dam. As with all Kentucky Dams that I have yet to encounter, this one is likewise sporting the typical ACoE signage as you enter the road down into the spillway. Luckily, the whole of Dewey Lake is NOT sporting the ACoE signage!

    Due to these facts, I rarely bother with Painstville Lake being that it's covered by the repressive policies of ACoE and the fact that if you're going out to a lake, Paintsville's is extremely limited as opposed to Dewey Lake which has a nice road around it which makes for a nice weekend drive and many picnic spots to stop and enjoy a nice sunny picnic. Plus Dewey Lake doesn't have those nasty signs. *LOL*
    Last edited by neuroblades; 07-11-2011 at 11:34 PM. Reason: Correction
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnfetteredMight View Post
    What court precedence are you basing this on? The ACoE is responsible for the care of many lakes and waterways, federal funding goes into this upkeep and as such they claim jurisdiction. I have family at Nolin and I can promise you the ACoE controls more than just the dam, they control the whole lake and even so far up the banks to what is referred to as the "red line".

    Just because youve had no problems does not mean the potential for one does not exist. Even if youve come across LE, that still means nothing. A LEO can choose to not enforce a law just as well as they can try to pretend one exists.

    Follow this advice at your own peril.
    Tell me, who is going to enforce the law? You are writing about Nolin, in Tennessee and we are talking about state parks in Kentucky. There is much difference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
    Tell me, who is going to enforce the law? You are writing about Nolin, in Tennessee and we are talking about state parks in Kentucky. There is much difference.
    You know, I dont really know. Coast guard patrols our waterways along with conservation officers. Do the conservation officers work for the state or the ACoE? If for the state, are they required to follow federal law? I cant answer that and I doubt you can either.

    But one things for sure, I enjoy my 2A and im not going to risk a criminal charge on federal land taking that away. Be my guest if you want to be the test case.

    Nolin is in Kentucky, Upton exit off I65, down Dixie hwy a bit, right on 728 and then east for aways. My mother lives there, I know which state its in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UnfetteredMight View Post
    You know, I dont really know. Coast guard patrols our waterways along with conservation officers. Do the conservation officers work for the state or the ACoE? If for the state, are they required to follow federal law? I cant answer that and I doubt you can either.

    But one things for sure, I enjoy my 2A and im not going to risk a criminal charge on federal land taking that away. Be my guest if you want to be the test case.

    Nolin is in Kentucky, Upton exit off I65, down Dixie hwy a bit, right on 728 and then east for aways. My mother lives there, I know which state its in.
    I misunderstood which lake, sorry. Nolin Reservoir or Nolin River Lake was impounded by the Corps. The Commonwealth maintains the lake and the state park. Fish and Wildlife maintain law enforcement and have no federal arrest powers. I can not find any arrest or conviction for carrying on Corps of Engineers property. Call Frankfort and talk to Fish and Wildlife, they will tell you they have no arrest powers. And yes I can answer that, unless sworn to a federal agency (DEA, ATF, FBI, HSI) a state leo has no federal arrest powers. And I am not going to be frightened by a regulation adopted by the Army Corps of Engineers. That being said, I would not encroach on the dam or buildings owned by the Corps. I carry every weekend at Lake Cumberland or Laurel Lake or Dale Hollow and have since 1996. The fear of being charged is unfounded.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
    I misunderstood which lake, sorry. Nolin Reservoir or Nolin River Lake was impounded by the Corps. The Commonwealth maintains the lake and the state park. Fish and Wildlife maintain law enforcement and have no federal arrest powers. I can not find any arrest or conviction for carrying on Corps of Engineers property. Call Frankfort and talk to Fish and Wildlife, they will tell you they have no arrest powers. And yes I can answer that, unless sworn to a federal agency (DEA, ATF, FBI, HSI) a state leo has no federal arrest powers. And I am not going to be frightened by a regulation adopted by the Army Corps of Engineers. That being said, I would not encroach on the dam or buildings owned by the Corps. I carry every weekend at Lake Cumberland or Laurel Lake or Dale Hollow and have since 1996. The fear of being charged is unfounded.
    No sweat. So how many times have you encountered LE outside of the buildings actually owed by ACoE?

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    Quote Originally Posted by UnfetteredMight View Post
    No sweat. So how many times have you encountered LE outside of the buildings actually owed by ACoE?
    Over the years, maybe 4 or 5 times. There are not that many working the lakes. Mostly, if I'm at the dock and not out in the water I may have an occassion to cross paths while carrying.
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    I was under the impression that Barren River Lake SP is not run by the ACoE. I have carried there several times, each time CC, and never seen a sign. Never saw anything written to suggest that it was run by the anyone but the state.

    Certainly the dam is a different matter. They have firearms laws in effect, and my understanding is that the new law won't change anything about the dams. I personally think they should just make a law against blowing up dams if thats what they're so worried about. Maybe add in one about not shooting people for good measure.

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    beaver creek camping area has signs posted, when i asked the camp manager he said the park was run by the acoe and that firearms were not allowed anywhere in the park.

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    The campground might be run by the ACoE.

    From the FAQ on Barren River Lake State Resort Parks website:

    Question: Who is in charge of Kentucky State Parks?

    Our parks are managed by the Kentucky Department of Parks, an agency of the Tourism, Arts and Heritage Cabinet. The head of the department is Commissioner Gerry van der Meer.

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    Many state parks throughout the country are on ACOE land, and ACOE rules apply no matter what state law says. (I know it's not right, but that's how it is.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    Many state parks throughout the country are on ACOE land, and ACOE rules apply no matter what state law says. (I know it's not right, but that's how it is.)
    For now....

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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    Many state parks throughout the country are on ACOE land, and ACOE rules apply no matter what state law says. (I know it's not right, but that's how it is.)
    Need a cite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    Many state parks throughout the country are on ACOE land, and ACOE rules apply no matter what state law says. (I know it's not right, but that's how it is.)
    Need a cite.
    http://tinyurl.com/3ua23jm

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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    I did not see anything in your post that shows that any state park sits on federal land. I can not speak for the entire country, but in the Commonwealth, state parks are state owned, managed and controlled.
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    http://www.NRAILA.org/News/Read/InTheNews.aspx?ID=15331Looks like ACOE won't have gun rules soon.
    Last edited by Mas49.56; 07-23-2011 at 10:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
    I did not see anything in your post that shows that any state park sits on federal land. I can not speak for the entire country, but in the Commonwealth, state parks are state owned, managed and controlled.
    Sorry, I didn't understand what you wanted a cite to.

    From the "Camping" link, here (ACOE Louisville District):

    Campsites at all State Park leased campgrounds, operated by the Commonwealth of Kentucky as well as the States of Indiana and Ohio, may now be reserved in advance. Visit each State's reservations links via the Lakes page (right column) for additional information.

    From that page (can't link directly), it looks like Barren River Lake, Carr Creek, Green River Lake, Nolin Lake, Rough River, and Taylorsville Lake are all Kentucky State Parks that are leased from ACOE. The state operates them, but the land is owned by the ACOE.

    Texas has the same situation. The state parks director says Texas gun laws apply; ACOE, including LEOs, insist that federal rules apply. Either way, there's no doubt that ACOE has jurisdiction over the property, because they own it.

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    This isn't as grey as I thought. All this bill does is pull funding for enforcement of their gun ban, not overturn it altogether. H.r. 1865 is wat needs to pass, it will overturn the entire gun ban, anyone have ne word on it?

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    KBCraig I have read the regulation. From what I can tell, it is only the campground that may, and I say may, be under any federal regulation. The reason is the campground is built within the confines of the ACOE's property and the ACOE's lease the campsites, not the state. Looking up the Commonwealth of Kentucky campground rules and regulations, there is no provision to disallow firearms. This is way to confusing, shouldn't be this hard to understand, but as I have said before, enforcement would be tough, they could ask you to leave the campground, but who would come to arrest you? I'm pretty sure the FBI, DEA, ATF etc. would not and there are only a handful of Fish and Wildlife guys. Here is the state rules and regulations. http://parks.ky.gov/regulations.htm. Also, thanks for the information. I am going to research it with my employer tomorrow.
    Last edited by hotrod; 07-24-2011 at 10:05 AM.
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    Hopefully this is all moot very soon, but for those following along the federal regulation is 36 CFR 327.13:

    Title 36: Parks, Forests, and Public Property
    PART 327—RULES AND REGULATIONS GOVERNING PUBLIC USE OF WATER RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS ADMINISTERED BY THE CHIEF OF ENGINEERS
    327.13 Explosives, firearms, other weapons and fireworks.
    (a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is prohibited unless:
    (1) In the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement officer;
    (2) Being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under 327.8, with devices being unloaded when transported to, from or between hunting and fishing sites;
    (3) Being used at authorized shooting ranges; or
    (4) Written permission has been received from the District Commander.
    (b) Possession of explosives or explosive devices of any kind, including fireworks or other pyrotechnics, is prohibited unless written permission has been received from the District Commander.
    [65 FR 6901, Feb. 11, 2000]
    Last edited by KBCraig; 07-24-2011 at 07:49 PM.

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