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Thread: firearms and liquor/beer????

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    firearms and liquor/beer????

    does anyone know about the law regarding to alcohol? i read in the law pamphlet that you cannot be "intoxicated" but it states "intoxication" is "excessive blood alcohol greater than 0.08% or more by weight of alcohol in the blood" .

    reason i ask is we can carry in places that serve drinks. however my CCW instructor said if i sip the froth off a beer, and have my gun on me my permit will be revoked. but the wording of the law seems to say i have to be legally drunk.........i mean can i have a glass of wine and still carry? or a beer with dinner? or is that a no no. the law is really confusing

    i in no way mean to say "if i get smashed is that bad" because well lots of booze and guns dont mix. but........i've heard the law about 3 different ways. anyone know what is set in stone? is it the legal intoxication level that makes it illegal? or having anything in your system at all?
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

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    Your instructor was incorrect: HERE IS THE STATUTE

    We recommend you do not indulge and ask for a separate tab if in a group. That way if you do have to employ your firearm the server will remember you did not consume alcohol and not impaired...
    Paul J. Mattson
    NRA Certified Instructor / RSO
    #63731855
    Maine CWP Training
    101 Main St.
    Harrison, ME 04040

    www.mainecwptraining.com

    (207) 583-4723
    CELL 232-7063

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    alright thats what i thought. he also attempted to tell me that Open carrying a unloaded vehicle in plain sight in the car was illegal if i could reach the ammo. which the statute for that also says is incorrect haha
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine CWP Training View Post
    Your instructor was incorrect: HERE IS THE STATUTE

    We recommend you do not indulge and ask for a separate tab if in a group. That way if you do have to employ your firearm the server will remember you did not consume alcohol and not impaired...
    Sorry, I'm a little confused! The statute says "For purposes of this section, "under the influence of intoxicating liquor or drugs or a combination of liquor and drugs or with an excessive alcohol level" has the same meaning as "under the influence of intoxicants" as defined in Title 29-A, section 2401, subsection 13."

    under the influence of liquor or drugs OR a combination OR with an excessive alcohol level. Does that not mean that if you are under the influence of liquor it falls under the category of criminal possession? "or" is a suggestion of choice...meaning any of those is considered criminal. So if you are under the influence of anything, it's criminal. Is there a definition of under the influence? It defines 'excessive alcohol' but not 'under the influence'. Please help me understand!! Can you tell I'm new?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cllmecrazy View Post
    Sorry, I'm a little confused! The statute says "For purposes of this section, "under the influence of intoxicating liquor or drugs or a combination of liquor and drugs or with an excessive alcohol level" has the same meaning as "under the influence of intoxicants" as defined in Title 29-A, section 2401, subsection 13."

    under the influence of liquor or drugs OR a combination OR with an excessive alcohol level. Does that not mean that if you are under the influence of liquor it falls under the category of criminal possession? "or" is a suggestion of choice...meaning any of those is considered criminal. So if you are under the influence of anything, it's criminal. Is there a definition of under the influence? It defines 'excessive alcohol' but not 'under the influence'. Please help me understand!! Can you tell I'm new?
    Title 29-A Section 2401 defines it as

    13. Under the influence of intoxicants. "Under the influence of intoxicants" means being under the influence of alcohol, a drug other than alcohol, a combination of drugs or a combination of alcohol and drugs.

    So it's criminal possession if you are under the influence of alcohol, or another drug, or any combination of alcohol and drugs and you're carrying a firearm in an establishment licensed to sell alcohol for on premises consumption.

    You quoted Section 5 of the statute. It's section 1 that deals with criminal possession. Section 5 is just setting a definition.
    Last edited by boyscout399; 05-26-2011 at 10:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    Title 29-A Section 2401 defines it as

    13. Under the influence of intoxicants. "Under the influence of intoxicants" means being under the influence of alcohol, a drug other than alcohol, a combination of drugs or a combination of alcohol and drugs.

    So it's criminal possession if you are under the influence of alcohol, or another drug, or any combination of alcohol and drugs and you're carrying a firearm in an establishment licensed to sell alcohol for on premises consumption.

    You quoted Section 5 of the statute. It's section 1 that deals with criminal possession. Section 5 is just setting a definition.
    So 'under the influence' means 'being under the influence'. That's not a definition. See where my problem lies? To me it still says that if you have alcohol in your system it's illegal. So it all relies on what is considered 'under the influence'...one drink or legally drunk. One drink can leave you buzzed, but not drunk...so does that count or no? I know I'm debating semantics...but semantics are where you can get into trouble if you're carrying and had one drink and a cop is giving you a hard time.

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    yet again a case of officer interp. Under the influance is stated as "intoxicated" but intoxicated in Maine states a BAL of 0.08% or more by blood volume. however it does not state in the statute that indeed that is what they mean. and its not just in a place that serves booze either. if the officer indeed believes you to be "under the influance" and you have a weapon on you. no matter where you are you are in big trouble. if you have a CCW he will probably pull it right there and then.

    i wondered alot about this and asked a few leo friends of mine who told me they even were not quite sure. so to be safe booze + gun bad......if your gonna drink, lock it up. its what i do. :-)
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

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    Quote Originally Posted by cllmecrazy View Post
    So 'under the influence' means 'being under the influence'. That's not a definition. See where my problem lies? To me it still says that if you have alcohol in your system it's illegal. So it all relies on what is considered 'under the influence'...one drink or legally drunk. One drink can leave you buzzed, but not drunk...so does that count or no? I know I'm debating semantics...but semantics are where you can get into trouble if you're carrying and had one drink and a cop is giving you a hard time.
    yes, alcohol in your system puts you under the influence. Remember this statute is only pertaining to being under the influence while in an establishment that serves alcohol for on premises consumption. It does not apply to being under the influence while walking on the street. Only in a bar or restaurant that serves alcohol.

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    "excessive alcohol level" has the same meaning as "under the influence of intoxicants" as defined in Title 29-A, section 2401, subsection 13. "Excessive alcohol level" means an alcohol level of 0.08 grams or more of alcohol per 100 milliliters of blood or 210 liters of breath. Standards, tests and procedures applicable in determining whether a person is under the influence or has an excessive alcohol level within the meaning of this section are those applicable pursuant to Title 29-A, sections 2411 and 2431;
    Paul J. Mattson
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    #63731855
    Maine CWP Training
    101 Main St.
    Harrison, ME 04040

    www.mainecwptraining.com

    (207) 583-4723
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine CWP Training View Post
    "excessive alcohol level" has the same meaning as "under the influence of intoxicants" as defined in Title 29-A, section 2401, subsection 13. "Excessive alcohol level" means an alcohol level of 0.08 grams or more of alcohol per 100 milliliters of blood or 210 liters of breath. Standards, tests and procedures applicable in determining whether a person is under the influence or has an excessive alcohol level within the meaning of this section are those applicable pursuant to Title 29-A, sections 2411 and 2431;
    read the statute again. you misquoted it. "Excessive alcohol level" means .08 or higher, but "Under the influence" does not specify a level of intoxication.

    The statute says "under the influence" OR "excessive alcohol level" in a bar is criminal possession
    Last edited by boyscout399; 05-28-2011 at 11:10 AM.

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    I copied it directly from that state statute and pasted it. Not misread at all.
    Paul J. Mattson
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    #63731855
    Maine CWP Training
    101 Main St.
    Harrison, ME 04040

    www.mainecwptraining.com

    (207) 583-4723
    CELL 232-7063

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    read the statute again. you misquoted it. "Excessive alcohol level" means .08 or higher, but "Under the influence" does not specify a level of intoxication.

    The statute says "under the influence" OR "excessive alcohol level" in a bar is criminal possession
    I went and found Title 29-A, section 2401, subsection 13 that this refers to:

    2401. Definitions

    As used in this chapter, unless the context otherwise indicates, the following terms have the following meanings.

    13. Under the influence of intoxicants. "Under the influence of intoxicants" means being under the influence of alcohol, a drug other than alcohol, a combination of drugs or a combination of alcohol and drugs.

    Now is the grey area...it does not define what 'under the influence' means. All it is defining is 'intoxicants'...which is where the confusion is. Basically I'd say...just don't drink and carry...because I don't see a definite answer.

    However, when trying to find a definition in the title for 'under the influence' I came across criminal OUI. Well...take out 'operating' and just keep 'under influence' and 'Title 29-A Section 2411 Subsection 1A defines that as: "While having an alcohol level of 0.08 grams or more of alcohol per 100 milliliters of blood or 210 liters of breath'". Though, then you could argue that's CRIMINAL 'under influence', where they didn't state 'criminal' in Title 29-A 2401...

    CIRCLES I tell you...leaves room for interpretation and I don't know if I like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine CWP Training View Post
    I copied it directly from that state statute and pasted it. Not misread at all.
    but you left out the OR option before excessive alcohol level... under the influence OR excessive alcohol level, means what it means in Title 29. So under the influence means under the influence. It does not specify a level of intoxication to define what under the influence means. A prosecutor could easily argue that buzzed is "under the influence." even if it's not "legally intoxicated"

    Intoxicated is a higher standard than under the influence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cllmecrazy View Post
    I went and found Title 29-A, section 2401, subsection 13 that this refers to:

    2401. Definitions

    As used in this chapter, unless the context otherwise indicates, the following terms have the following meanings.

    13. Under the influence of intoxicants. "Under the influence of intoxicants" means being under the influence of alcohol, a drug other than alcohol, a combination of drugs or a combination of alcohol and drugs.

    Now is the grey area...it does not define what 'under the influence' means. All it is defining is 'intoxicants'...which is where the confusion is. Basically I'd say...just don't drink and carry...because I don't see a definite answer.

    However, when trying to find a definition in the title for 'under the influence' I came across criminal OUI. Well...take out 'operating' and just keep 'under influence' and 'Title 29-A Section 2411 Subsection 1A defines that as: "While having an alcohol level of 0.08 grams or more of alcohol per 100 milliliters of blood or 210 liters of breath'". Though, then you could argue that's CRIMINAL 'under influence', where they didn't state 'criminal' in Title 29-A 2401...

    CIRCLES I tell you...leaves room for interpretation and I don't know if I like that.
    If it doesn't define what Under the Influence is, then it means Under the influence. If the drug affects your decision making, then it is Influencing you. If you are buzzed, but not legally drunk, then the drug is still influencing you and therefore this statute applies.

    I don't understand why it's so hard to read. Take the statute at face value, don't try to read into it. It's very clear. If you are under the influence OR intoxicated above .08, then you can't be in an establishment that serves alcohol for on premises consumption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    If it doesn't define what Under the Influence is, then it means Under the influence. If the drug affects your decision making, then it is Influencing you. If you are buzzed, but not legally drunk, then the drug is still influencing you and therefore this statute applies.

    I don't understand why it's so hard to read. Take the statute at face value, don't try to read into it. It's very clear. If you are under the influence OR intoxicated above .08, then you can't be in an establishment that serves alcohol for on premises consumption.
    Actually...if you read further up, that's exactly what I was saying earlier in the thread...which spurred this whole thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cllmecrazy View Post
    Actually...if you read further up, that's exactly what I was saying earlier in the thread...which spurred this whole thing.
    my comment was directed more at others than yourself...

    twisting the wording of the statute through omission to make it less strict than it actually is. That is just as bad as the people who twist the wording of the second amendment to try and make it MORE strict by only applying to militias.

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    sad part is if the officer "thinks" you are under the influcance. he can pull your permit. even if hes wrong, or the charge is wrong. he can still pull it and it takes a bit to get back. happend to my buddy in saco. he had a beer at a cookout, went for a drive, parked, someone backed into him. when LEO showed up, they smelt the beer and pulled his permit. 2 weeks ago. still hasnt gotten it back.
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

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    Quote Originally Posted by carry for myself View Post
    sad part is if the officer "thinks" you are under the influcance. he can pull your permit. even if hes wrong, or the charge is wrong. he can still pull it and it takes a bit to get back. happend to my buddy in saco. he had a beer at a cookout, went for a drive, parked, someone backed into him. when LEO showed up, they smelt the beer and pulled his permit. 2 weeks ago. still hasnt gotten it back.
    under what authority did they pull the permit??? he wasn't convicted yet correct?

    1. Revocation. The issuing authority shall revoke a permit on the basis of one or more of the following determinations:
    A. The application or any documents made part of the application contained a material misstatement; [1985, c. 478, 2 (NEW).]
    B. The permit holder has been convicted of a violation of section 2001-A; [2003, c. 452, Pt. N, 4 (AMD); 2003, c. 452, Pt. X, 2 (AFF).]
    C. The permit holder becomes ineligible to possess a permit under this chapter. Ineligibility is determined on the basis of the criteria contained in section 2003; [1989, c. 917, 13 (AMD).]
    D. For conduct that occurred after a permit was issued, that the permit holder was convicted of operating a motor vehicle, snowmobile, ATV or watercraft while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or drugs or with an excessive alcohol level and, by a preponderance of the evidence, that at the time of the offense the permit holder was in possession of a loaded firearm; or [2009, c. 447, 25 (AMD).]
    E. For conduct that occurred after a permit was issued, that the permit holder was convicted of any violation of Title 17-A, chapter 45. [1989, c. 917, 13 (NEW).]

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    Quote Originally Posted by boyscout399 View Post
    under what authority did they pull the permit??? he wasn't convicted yet correct?
    nope,. they asked him if he had a permit. *was concealed* he showed the officer officer said "im gonna hold on to this" stuck it in his pocket. cant exactly reach over and grab it back . so some cops......they play the "will beat the charge but not the ride" game ya know.
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

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    FWIW and My opinion and mine only, The operating or handling machinery and Alcoholic beverages do not mix. A firearm is a piece of machinery.

    I have no problem having a taste or two of your beverage of choice, AFTER the firearms and or the keys to the vehicle are put away.

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    We've been having a go-round about this very topic over on the WI forum. (And yes, I know I didn't proofread well enough.)

    FWIW, our law says you can't be "materially impaired" while in possession of a firearm, but doesn't actually define "materially impaired". I understand that it's taken to be the same as "intoxicated", which is defined as .08% BAC, but it's not written anywhere in the "can't possess a gun w/ too much alcohol in your body" statute.

    A few people in our discussion decreed that nobody should ever, for any reason, handle a firearm if they have any amount of alcohol in their body. By self-admission, some of those people lack the self-control to drink responsibly.

    Most people seem to agree that having a drink with dinner (or while watching the game or a movie or shooting pool) is fine, doesn't cause a safety issue, and is not grounds for revocation of the right to self-defense. (Or a carry permit.)

    Most people also seem to agree that if you're intending to "go drinking", or are lacking in self-control (either to not drink responsibly, or to not leave the pistol in its holster if you have been drinking too much) then you shouldn't be armed while drinking.

    Problem is, those are exactly the people (no self-control) who won't be swayed by what a law says, and won't exercise the self-control to separate alcohol & arms. So why should responsible people be placed under prior restraint because a few irresponsible people can't behave? (Question works in many situations.)

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    i barely drink at all. ill buy a 6 pack of guinness and it will last me 2 weeks, only time i drink while carrying is in my living room. and it NEVER goes past 1 beer. *usually accompanied by pizza* and i REFUSE to leave the house for at least 2 hours after. *not because im a danger after a single beer, but because cops like to take permits and arrest people*


    i bought a little keychain brethalizer , blow.....tells you your BAL. if mine says 0.01 i do not leave the house and if im planning on going to a bar or out to eat* where i plan to have a drink of any kind* , i lock the pistol up in the trunk before. and dont remove it till i get home.


    good thing is my gf barely drinks too. so if one of us is drinking, the other is not. one of us is always armed just incase.
    Last edited by carry for myself; 05-31-2011 at 12:02 PM. Reason: add
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

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