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Thread: If I decide to open carry?

  1. #1
    Regular Member T Mack's Avatar
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    Question If I decide to open carry?

    Any quick suggestions if I decide to open carry? There is so much info I'm just trying to narrow down the most important specifics real quick and what I can expect.
    Should I not OC until I go to a meeting with you guys?
    I'm familiar with the wash rinse repeat.
    But if I wanna take a ride on my harley tomorrow and open carry what should I expect? To go to jail and lose my cpl?

    Also should I not OC without a recorder? If so what recorder do u guys recommend me buying?
    Last edited by T Mack; 05-23-2011 at 10:12 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member FerretMI's Avatar
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    Don't take it on the Harley unless you have a CPL. It would technically count as concealing the gun.

    You should be very familiar with the legislation, recent Michigan State Police update, and other information spread throughout the forum. Just read a lot, and you should begin to not doubt where/whether you should open carry.

    I picked up an $80 sony audio recorder from Best Buy and carry it with me in case I need it. It's pretty important to have one with you. The one I got is good quality, but you definitely don't have to spend as much as I did to get a decent recorder. Make sure it can be connected to a computer to send/copy the files.
    Last edited by FerretMI; 05-23-2011 at 10:30 PM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    Many of us carry our handguns on our bikes with a CPL. Dont do it without one

    I have had no issues on the bike so far

    but i would recommend a good retention holster for peace of mind. My Serpa Blackhawk does a fine job for me, I still check it every so often and its always there!!!

    I got a cheap sony recorder from wally world, only thing with it, no USB port to transfer to the computer if you need to. I also took a lanyard from a old ID badge I had and modified it so i could hang the recorder around my neck under my shirts. in testing on and of the bike it worked just fine

    Ill be "OCing" on my motorcycle in Ohio, Penn and VA this weekend as I head out by myself on my bike to Washington DC to attend Rolling Thunder. Ill have to stop at the Pa/MD line to put the gun away as MD does not like guns and has no reciprocity with Michigan.
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    http://www.google.com/products/catal...=1024&bih=583#

    This recorder works really well. I would pick one up if I were you. Since you have a CPL, you shouldn't have too much to worry about. Just be polite, and don't say any more than necessary. You probably won't have a problem, stops are the exception, not the rule. Just go about your day as you otherwise would, but turn the situational awareness up a notch or two, carry yourself confidently, and you will do fine. Stay away from federal buildings, casinos, post offices, colleges, and courts.

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    Regular Member T Mack's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by FerretMI View Post
    Don't take it on the Harley unless you have a CPL. It would technically count as concealing the gun.

    You should be very familiar with the legislation, recent Michigan State Police update, and other information spread throughout the forum. Just read a lot, and you should begin to not doubt where/whether you should open carry.

    I picked up an $80 sony audio recorder from Best Buy and carry it with me in case I need it. It's pretty important to have one with you. The one I got is good quality, but you definitely don't have to spend as much as I did to get a decent recorder. Make sure it can be connected to a computer to send/copy the files.
    Yes I do have a Michigan CPL

  6. #6
    Regular Member T Mack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    http://www.google.com/products/catal...=1024&bih=583#

    This recorder works really well. I would pick one up if I were you. Since you have a CPL, you shouldn't have too much to worry about. Just be polite, and don't say any more than necessary. You probably won't have a problem, stops are the exception, not the rule. Just go about your day as you otherwise would, but turn the situational
    awareness up a notch or two, carry yourself confidently, and you will do fine. Stay away from federal buildings, casinos, post offices, colleges, and courts.
    Banks are ok to open carry?
    So no federal buildings casinos, post office, colleges and courts. Also middle and high schools no day cares either?

    Thx in advance

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    Correct, except that with a CPL you must open carry, not CC in K-12 schools. Kindergarten, Elementary, Jr. High, and High schools are good to go.

  8. #8
    Regular Member T Mack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Correct, except that with a CPL you must open carry, not CC in K-12 schools. Kindergarten, Elementary, Jr. High, and High schools are good to go.
    Am I understanding u correctly? I thought k-12 u were not able to cc or OC period? On my Michigan cpl it says schools are off limits I believe.
    But your saying if I OC at a k-12 it's legal?

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    The concealed weapons law, MCL 28.425o covers only CONCEALED weapons in schools, and refers to the law concerning schools for the definition of schools and school property. The law covering weapons in schools, MCL 750.237a prohibits firearms in schools, however, CPL holders are exempt from this restriction. Therefore, you may only open carry, and only with a CPL. You may only conceal in the parking lot of a a school, the rest is OC.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...me=mcl-28-425o

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=mcl-750-237a

    Do not expect everyone to know that it is legal, but it is legal.

    They may ask you to leave, if they do, you should. Even though the school is part of the .gov, and should be covered under preemption laws, as of now, it isn't. There are many of us working on that issue both in, and out of the courts as we speak. Several of our members currently OC in schools without issue. I am fighting with Waterford about this right now. Just OC, don't ask, just do.

    ETA, if they do ask you to leave, make sure to post the event here, and we will do everything we can to help resolve the issue.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 05-24-2011 at 02:13 AM.

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    SNIP

    28.425o Premises on which carrying CONCEALED weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a CONCEALED pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

    (3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

    750.237a Individuals engaging in proscribed conduct; violation; penalties; definitions.

    (4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:

    (5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:


    (c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (b) “School” means a public, private, denominational, or parochial school offering developmental kindergarten, kindergarten, or any grade from 1 through 12.
    (c) “School property” means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.
    (d) “Weapon free school zone” means school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 05-24-2011 at 02:21 AM.

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    T Mack,

    Welcome to Michigan Law 101. The above advice is accurate. "Federal Buildings" such as a branch of the Federal Reserve, Post Office, or Department of Defense headquarters are off limits per Federal Law. Michigan Court's are off limits due to a Michigan Supreme Court Ruling. Many will argue what the definition of a "Court" is such as whole building or only courtroom, but good luck arguing, just stay clear if there is a court attached and you will know you are safe.

    Those places aside, you can legally openly or conceal carry your handgun in all Pistol Free Zones such as schools. Your CPL law (forge the back of card, it is so misleading it is scary) says you can not conceal in places such as a school, daycare center, but it does NOT prevent you from openly caring in those places. I rarely do it (election day is a good exception in my book), and I do not recommend it, but open carry in a public school is legal according to Michigan laws.

    This is discussed and cited all over this and other websites, but for your verification on this topic, I suggest you start by reading a Michigan Police Legal Update on this exact matter.

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf

    They have written that fairly clearly and accurately. If you still have doubts or questions on the subject, feel free to ask away. Better to sound like a broken record asking similar questions then to be wrong on a subject, we are happy to help.

    In regards to "What to expect?" When I open carry I expect to enjoy my day and get my errands done and perhaps answer a few simple questions from the general public. I expect to have any police officers who see me to stop and say Hi, as I know almost all of them and it would be rude to ignore me. Yes, you may be stopped, and if you are it is in your best interest to not answer questions as if he stopped you he is probably trying to hang you out to dry, but use your judgement. In the end if stopped, you will typically hear a lecture on the poor children seeing your gun and then be on your way. I would not expect to be stopped at all though, as many before you worked extremely hard and paved the way for you.

    If you happen to come across the rare untrained and illegal stop, it would be highly advised to carry a recorder with you to protect yourself from any mistruths about the situation that arise. Quite frankly, there are a few bad seeds in the LEO business whose only interests are their own and not the law, but most officers are not like this, and most have been well trained and enforce the law and not personal opinions.

    -northofnowhere

  12. #12
    Regular Member quarter horseman's Avatar
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    Welcome to OC

    Also because it is camping season, and if you camp remember this new tidbit.

    Because the DNR is federal you cannot carry into the buildings OC or CC at state or national parks, in the parks are fine.. Please correct me if I am wrong.

    Q: Can I carry my concealed pistol in National Parks?
    A: A change in federal law effective Monday, February 22, 2010 allows firearms in many national parks. People who can legally possess firearms under federal and state law can now possess those firearms in the national parks in that state. The new law (Sec. 512 of P.L. 111-24) was passed by Congress and signed last May by the President. Prior to February 22, firearms have generally been prohibited in national parks except in some Alaska parks and those parks that allow hunting. State and local firearms laws vary. Visitors who would like to bring a firearm with them to a national park need to understand and comply with the applicable laws. More than 30 national parks are located in more than one state, so visitors need to know where they are in those parks and which states law applies. For nearly 100 years, the mission of the National Park Service has been to protect and preserve the parks and to help all visitors enjoy them, National Park Service Director Jon Jarvis said. We will administer this law as we do all others - fairly and consistently. Federal law continues to prohibit the possession of firearms in designated federal facilities in national parks, for example, visitor centers, offices, or maintenance buildings. These places are posted with 'firearms prohibited' signs at public entrances. The new law also does not change prohibitions on the use of firearms in national parks and does not change hunting regulations. Park websites have been updated to include links to state firearms laws to help visitors understand the law and plan accordingly. Sec. 512 of P.L. 111-24, an amendment to the Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure Act of 2009, also directs the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to follow state and local firearms laws in national wildlife refuges. Links: - nps.gov - Michigan's National Parks and wilderness areas.

    http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/d_ccwfaq.asp
    Last edited by quarter horseman; 05-24-2011 at 11:31 AM.

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    Regular Member teecro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    The concealed weapons law, MCL 28.425o covers only CONCEALED weapons in schools, and refers to the law concerning schools for the definition of schools and school property. The law covering weapons in schools, MCL 750.237a prohibits firearms in schools, however, CPL holders are exempt from this restriction. Therefore, you may only open carry, and only with a CPL. You may only conceal in the parking lot of a a school, the rest is OC.

    Do not expect everyone to know that it is legal, but it is legal.

    They may ask you to leave, if they do, you should. Even though the school is part of the .gov, and should be covered under preemption laws, as of now, it isn't. There are many of us working on that issue both in, and out of the courts as we speak. Several of our members currently OC in schools without issue. I am fighting with Waterford about this right now. Just OC, don't ask, just do.
    Is "Open Carry" in a PFZ with a CPL legal simply as they did not write it up as not legal? Sort of the way that Open Carry is legal if for no other reason than there is no law stating that open carry is not legal?

    BTW Hello all.... A newbie to the Open Carry Forum but not new to guns in general; having owned 25 years of 48 years young. I'm in the Saint Joseph/Stevensville area and will be a papered CPL in a few weeks and will then started bravely going OC a bit more now that there will lesser legal issue to navigate through or around.

  14. #14
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by northofnowhere View Post
    Those places aside, you can legally openly or conceal carry your handgun in all Pistol Free Zones such as schools. Your CPL law (forge the back of card, it is so misleading it is scary) . . .
    Be careful that what you write isn't misleading as well. Your first sentence above should read:

    ". . . you can legally openly carry your handgun in all Pistol Free Zones such as schools." Strike "conceal carry" from what you wrote there!

    It is understood you are responding to a CPL holder. Non-CPL holders: you may OC in CC PFZs, unless the place is also a prohibited area by law for OC (which many are) and you do not have permission to OC from the owner/agent.
    Last edited by DanM; 05-24-2011 at 10:35 AM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teecro View Post
    Is "Open Carry" in a PFZ with a CPL legal simply as they did not write it up as not legal? Sort of the way that Open Carry is legal if for no other reason than there is no law stating that open carry is not legal?
    Correct. Same thing goes if you want to wear a purple shirt on Tuesdays. No law against it means you can do it.

    However, some folks in Michigan still fear that somewhat broad laws against "disturbing the peace" or "brandishing" may be used against them. We are here to assure you that OC in Michigan is well settled as completely legal. While rogue cops and prosecutors will never completely cease to exist, the risk of running into them in Michigan is very, very low and continuing to trend downward.
    Last edited by DanM; 05-24-2011 at 08:34 AM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  16. #16
    Regular Member teecro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Correct. Same thing goes if you want to wear a purple shirt on Tuesdays. No law against it means you can do it.
    Thanks that was what I thought....

    I'm new to this and want to be sure I've got my facts straight and ducks in a row.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by northofnowhere View Post
    T Mack,
    I rarely do it (election day is a good exception in my book), and I do not recommend it, but open carry in a public school is legal according to Michigan laws.
    -northofnowhere
    And this is one reason why we have some difficulty in following the law, thus leaving ourselves, and our children at the mercy of those who would bring them harm. If not part of the solution...

    Fill in the blank :

    A right ___________ is a right lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by teecro View Post
    Is "Open Carry" in a PFZ with a CPL legal simply as they did not write it up as not legal? Sort of the way that Open Carry is legal if for no other reason than there is no law stating that open carry is not legal?

    BTW Hello all.... A newbie to the Open Carry Forum but not new to guns in general; having owned 25 years of 48 years young. I'm in the Saint Joseph/Stevensville area and will be a papered CPL in a few weeks and will then started bravely going OC a bit more now that there will lesser legal issue to navigate through or around.
    Sorta what DanM said. I feel that the legislature had it in thier power do do so, and chose not to. I feel that the legislature could have easily added schools to the no go list, and again chose not to. It takes much time, research, discussion, and rebuttal to get a law passed, to think schools didnt come up would be naive. We can carry in schools, and IMO it wasnt written into the law intentionally.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 05-24-2011 at 12:02 PM.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Ok a couple of things.

    One the Federal Reserve is not Federal.... however private property rights apply.

    Two the DNR is not federal however since you are talking National Parks any building that is frequented by Park Service personnel would be off limits.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  19. #19
    Regular Member quarter horseman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Ok a couple of things.

    One the Federal Reserve is not Federal.... however private property rights apply.

    Two the DNR is not federal however since you are talking National Parks any building that is frequented by Park Service personnel would be off limits.
    OOps my bad. What about State parks is that going to be the same then? Or do they fall under MI gun laws public property buildings?

  20. #20
    Regular Member teecro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    ..... Sorta what DanM said. I feel that the legislature had it in thier power do do so, and chose not to. I feel that the legislature could have easily added schools to the no go list, and again chose not to. It takes much time, research, discussion, and rebuttal to get a law passed, to think schools didnt come up would be naive. We can carry in schools, and IMO it wasnt written into the law intentionally.
    I have to agree with you there; better to have the door closed than to lock it and prevent further entry.

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Ok a couple of things.

    One the Federal Reserve is not Federal.... however private property rights apply.

    Two the DNR is not federal however since you are talking National Parks any building that is frequented by Park Service personnel would be off limits.
    thank you for pointing that out, a lot of people are misinformed in thinking that the federal reserves are federal property.
    http://www.richmondfed.org/faqs/frb/
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  22. #22
    Regular Member T Mack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Correct. Same thing goes if you want to wear a purple shirt on Tuesdays. No law against it means you can do it.

    However, some folks in Michigan still fear that somewhat broad laws against "disturbing the peace" or "brandishing" may be used against them. We are here to assure you that OC in Michigan is well settled as completely legal. While rogue cops and prosecutors will never completely cease to exist, the risk of running into them in Michigan is very, very low and continuing to trend downward.
    Thx to u all that have paved the way. I'm at discount tire now but I'm still CC.
    Still want to educate myself more and remember the wash rinse repeat a little better.
    I want to burn in my brain what to say if a LEO stops me. I'm good with the shutting up part!!!

  23. #23
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by northofnowhere View Post
    T Mack,


    Those places aside, you can legally openly or conceal carry your handgun in all Pistol Free Zones such as schools.


    -northofnowhere
    You might want to correct part of your post.
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  24. #24
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    thank you for pointing that out, a lot of people are misinformed in thinking that the federal reserves are federal property.
    http://www.richmondfed.org/faqs/frb/


    Yeah, kind of scary that our economy is largely controlled by a PRIVATE entity... whoa!!

  25. #25
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I feel that the legislature could have easily added schools to the no go list, and again chose not to.
    They didn't need to because per .237a weapon possession on school grounds is already illegal unless you meet one of the listed exemptions.


    750.237a

    (4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:

    (a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days.

    (b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.

    (c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.

    (5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) An individual who possesses a weapon provided by a school or a school's instructor on school property for purposes of providing or receiving instruction in the use of that weapon.

    (e) An individual who possesses a firearm on school property if that possession is with the permission of the school's principal or an agent of the school designated by the school's principal or the school board.

    (f) An individual who is 18 years of age or older who is not a student at the school and who possesses a firearm on school property while transporting a student to or from the school if any of the following apply:

    (i) The individual is carrying an antique firearm, completely unloaded, in a wrapper or container in the trunk of a vehicle while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area or function involving the exhibition, demonstration or sale of antique firearms.

    (ii) The individual is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle, while in possession of a valid Michigan hunting license or proof of valid membership in an organization having shooting range facilities, and while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.

    (iii) The person is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business, or in moving goods from one place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.

    (iv) The person is carrying an unloaded firearm in the passenger compartment of a vehicle that does not have a trunk, if the person is otherwise complying with the requirements of subparagraph (ii) or (iii) and the wrapper or container is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.
    Oops, you may be correct. According the history at the bottom of the pages .237a came into existance four years after .234d.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 05-24-2011 at 04:54 PM.
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