If I decide to open carry?

smellslikemichigan · May 24, 2011

autosurgeon said:
Ok a couple of things.

One the Federal Reserve is not Federal.... however private property rights apply.

Two the DNR is not federal however since you are talking National Parks any building that is frequented by Park Service personnel would be off limits.

thank you for pointing that out, a lot of people are misinformed in thinking that the federal reserves are federal property.
http://www.richmondfed.org/faqs/frb/

T Mack · May 24, 2011

DanM said:
Correct. Same thing goes if you want to wear a purple shirt on Tuesdays. No law against it means you can do it.

However, some folks in Michigan still fear that somewhat broad laws against "disturbing the peace" or "brandishing" may be used against them. We are here to assure you that OC in Michigan is well settled as completely legal. While rogue cops and prosecutors will never completely cease to exist, the risk of running into them in Michigan is very, very low and continuing to trend downward.

Thx to u all that have paved the way. I'm at discount tire now but I'm still CC.
Still want to educate myself more and remember the wash rinse repeat a little better.
I want to burn in my brain what to say if a LEO stops me. I'm good with the shutting up part!!!

Big Gay Al · May 24, 2011

northofnowhere said:
T Mack,

Those places aside, you can legally openly or conceal carry your handgun in all Pistol Free Zones such as schools.

-northofnowhere

You might want to correct part of your post.

HKcarrier · May 24, 2011

smellslikemichigan said:
thank you for pointing that out, a lot of people are misinformed in thinking that the federal reserves are federal property.
http://www.richmondfed.org/faqs/frb/

Yeah, kind of scary that our economy is largely controlled by a PRIVATE entity... whoa!!

Bronson · May 24, 2011

stainless1911 said:
I feel that the legislature could have easily added schools to the no go list, and again chose not to.

They didn't need to because per .237a weapon possession on school grounds is already illegal unless you meet one of the listed exemptions.

750.237a

(4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:

(a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days.

(b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.

(c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.

(5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:

(a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.

(b) A peace officer.

(c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

(d) An individual who possesses a weapon provided by a school or a school's instructor on school property for purposes of providing or receiving instruction in the use of that weapon.

(e) An individual who possesses a firearm on school property if that possession is with the permission of the school's principal or an agent of the school designated by the school's principal or the school board.

(f) An individual who is 18 years of age or older who is not a student at the school and who possesses a firearm on school property while transporting a student to or from the school if any of the following apply:

(i) The individual is carrying an antique firearm, completely unloaded, in a wrapper or container in the trunk of a vehicle while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area or function involving the exhibition, demonstration or sale of antique firearms.

(ii) The individual is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle, while in possession of a valid Michigan hunting license or proof of valid membership in an organization having shooting range facilities, and while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.

(iii) The person is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business, or in moving goods from one place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.

(iv) The person is carrying an unloaded firearm in the passenger compartment of a vehicle that does not have a trunk, if the person is otherwise complying with the requirements of subparagraph (ii) or (iii) and the wrapper or container is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

Oops, you may be correct. According the history at the bottom of the pages .237a came into existance four years after .234d.

Bronson

DrTodd · May 24, 2011

Just a reminder to all... please be sure as possible that what you claim as law is accurate. An unusually large number of posts in this thread are claiming things that just aren't true. A good way to do this is to have a citation for what you state as fact.

Bronson · May 24, 2011

DrTodd said:
A good way to do this is to have a citation for what you state as fact.

You mean follow the forum rules? Why would anybody want to do that?

(5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

Bronson

Big Gay Al · May 24, 2011

Bronson said:
You mean follow the forum rules? Why would anybody want to do that?

Bronson

Yeah, that just makes too much sense.

autosurgeon · May 24, 2011

quarter horseman said:
OOps my bad. What about State parks is that going to be the same then? Or do they fall under MI gun laws public property buildings?

State Parks are good to go OC or CC buildings are fine too.

papa bear · May 24, 2011

FerretMI said:
Don't take it on the Harley unless you have a CPL. It would technically count as concealing the gun.

You should be very familiar with the legislation, recent Michigan State Police update, and other information spread throughout the forum. Just read a lot, and you should begin to not doubt where/whether you should open carry.

I picked up an $80 sony audio recorder from Best Buy and carry it with me in case I need it. It's pretty important to have one with you. The one I got is good quality, but you definitely don't have to spend as much as I did to get a decent recorder. Make sure it can be connected to a computer to send/copy the files.

hey from NC. just reading the thread. i assumed that CPL is a concealed pistol licenses? i was wanting to understand about the carrying on a motorcycle being concealed?
could you explain how this is considered being concealed carry? just curious

T Mack · May 24, 2011

Michigan liquor licensed establishments?

I have been CC in applebees grocery stores all kinds of restaurant bars and thought I was legal? That is not the case?
Just read that in one of the stickies?:banghead:

teecro · May 24, 2011

papa bear said:
hey from NC. just reading the thread. i assumed that CPL is a concealed pistol licenses? i was wanting to understand about the carrying on a motorcycle being concealed?
could you explain how this is considered being concealed carry? just curious

Somebody will give you a better explanation of this but from what I've gathered from talking with a LEO about this is it's one of those gray area's as the law is not well defined. I "THINK" it goes like this: You can not carry on your person in a motor vehicle without a CPL and a motorcycle is defined as a motor vehicle thus you can't carry on your person while riding a motorbike without a CPL. Sounds like dumb BS to me but that's the way I understand it. that being said some time ago not knowing any better I've OC'ed to the range while on the bike and was never stopped. But I could have just been lucky!

teecro · May 24, 2011

T Mack said:
I have been CC in applebees grocery stores all kinds of restaurant bars and thought I was legal? That is not the case?
Just read that in one of the stickies?:banghead:

If you are a legal CPL you can carry CC in places like Applebees or Chili's etc as those places are considered to be a Restaurant as they make the majority of their money by selling food. I made sure to ask this at my CPL class last month; the LEO said yes no problem.

If I'm wrong man have I been misinformed! :uhoh:

DrTodd · May 24, 2011

papa bear said:
hey from NC. just reading the thread. i assumed that CPL is a concealed pistol licenses? i was wanting to understand about the carrying on a motorcycle being concealed?
could you explain how this is considered being concealed carry? just curious

(1) Yes, CPL= Concealed Pistol License.

(2) Not technically concealed, just a "shorthand" way that SOME here like to think about it. But, like most "shorthand" ways, it leads one to some confusion in particular cases: it could be "openly" carried in a vehicle... but is still illegal.

Here is the situation: It is a conservative guess that carry on a motorcycle would be considered a violation of Michigan law. (see below) I would tend to disagree, but better safe than sorry (Felony= Bad, very bad.. see below )

Also, there was a court case that stated that a "CCW" charge (sic) on a motorcycle was upheld; the pistol was hidden in a small space on the bike. (The case is listed in the "Michigan Criminal Law Manual" I have at my office... I'll put cite in here tomorrow afternoon.)

MCL 750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
Sec. 227.

(1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.

stainless1911 · May 24, 2011

T Mack said:
Thx to u all that have paved the way. I'm at discount tire now but I'm still CC.
Still want to educate myself more and remember the wash rinse repeat a little better.
I want to burn in my brain what to say if a LEO stops me. I'm good with the shutting up part!!!

If carrying concealed,(this includes OC in or on any vehicle,) including bicycles), you must disclose.

DrTodd · May 24, 2011

teecro said:
If you are a legal CPL you can carry CC in places like Applebees or Chili's etc as those places are considered to be a Restaurant as they make the majority of their money by selling food. I made sure to ask this at my CPL class last month; the LEO said yes no problem.

If I'm wrong man have I been misinformed! :uhoh:

Where in Michigan law does it say that they need to "make a majority of their money by selling food"??? Can we only cc in "Restaurants"?? I thought the law explained where we COULDN'T CC, not where we could. Please provide a citation/reference link, etc.

Please make sure that when you state "what the 'law' says", that you actually cite "the law". I'm not trying to single you out personally, but posts/threads have increasingly turned into "opinions" with no reference to Michigan Statutes or case law.

stainless1911 · May 24, 2011

You may OC or CC in a place that has a liquor license, as long as you have a CPL. You must OC with a CPL if the place makes most of the money from alcohol sales by the glass, consumed on the premises. There is no 51% rule, that is a myth.

(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

OC in/on vehicle

As has been pointed out, a motorcycle is defined as a vehicle, and carrying in or on a vehicle is considered concealment, and requires a CPL. You can be charged with a DUI on a bicycle, therefore you can be charged with a CCW on one. It may or may not stick, but the case would be expensive, and risky.

750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
Sec. 227.
(1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.
(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.

teecro · May 24, 2011

DrTodd said:
..... Please make sure that when you state "what the 'law' says", that you actually cite "the law". I'm not trying to single you out personally, but posts/threads have increasingly turned into "opinions" with no reference to Michigan Statutes or case law.

Dr Todd I know that I'm new here and if I had links to I would provide them; please read my post where I said that I was repeating what I was told by a LEO during the CPL class it is my understanding that is what they are there for to explain law related questions to which I only asked if CC was legal in such places.

stainless1911 · May 24, 2011

New-b's, go ahead and bookmark this link, you will use it again and again here.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(u0cntmurxo3wtkaukxxjwd45))/mileg.aspx?page=home

DrTodd · May 24, 2011

stainless1911 said:
You may OC or CC in a place that has a liquor license, as long as you have a CPL. You must OC with a CPL if the place makes most of the money from alcohol sales by the glass, consumed on the premises. There is no 51% rule, that is a myth.

(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

OC in/on vehicle

As has been pointed out, a motorcycle is defined as a vehicle, and carrying in or on a vehicle is considered concealment, and requires a CPL. You can be charged with a DUI on a bicycle, therefore you can be charged with a CCW on one. It may or may not stick, but the case would be expensive, and risky.

750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
Sec. 227.
(1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.
(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.

I only see "in" a vehicle, not "in/on"... but in all honesty, I thought it said that too before I looked it up. I have read that law probably 100's of times... and I still looked it up.
I PERSONALLY disagree with your assessment but, to be safe and avoid the possibility of LEO harassment, better to make sure you have a CPL in hand before you try driving a motorcycle with a pistol on your belt.

If I decide to open carry?

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