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Thread: Mstodon state park

  1. #1
    Regular Member Tony4310's Avatar
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    Mstodon state park

    Curious, can I open carry in Mastodon state park? I know we can in state parks,but being in Jeffco. I am unaware of the law there regarding OC.
    Last edited by Tony4310; 05-24-2011 at 11:42 AM.

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    Imperial is unincorparated (which is where the mailing address for park is) . So I would like to think yes, at least I haven't found anything saying otherwise. I don't know about the park.
    Last edited by repomasterstl; 05-24-2011 at 02:59 PM.

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    Regular Member Tony4310's Avatar
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    Just wanted to make sure.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    OC in Missouri State Parks

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony4310 View Post
    Just wanted to make sure.
    I have communicated with The Park Police in Jefferson City.
    Good response.

    This was an email from him;
    I received your e-mail concerning concealed and open carry of firearms in Missouri State Parks. Thank you for your interest in Missouri State Parks and your desire to comply with park rules, regulations and state statutes.
    Concealed carry is permitted in Missouri State Parks with the possession of a valid concealed carry permit. Open carry is also legal in Missouri State Parks; however, it is a violation of state law to carry a weapon, either concealed or open carry, into any building owned or occupied by any agency of the federal or state government (i.e., park office, visitor center, etc.).
    Again, thank you for your interest in Missouri State Parks. Please let me know if you have additional questions, or if I can be of further service.

    Sincerely,

    John P. Hoover, Major
    Division of State Parks
    Park Ranger Program
    573-751-5358
    john.hoover@dnr.mo.gov
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John P. Hoover, Major - Division of State Parks View Post
    <snip>.....however, it is a violation of state law to carry a weapon, either concealed or open carry, into any building owned or occupied by any agency of <...snip...> the state government (i.e., park office, visitor center, etc.)......<snip>
    Actually, for those with valid CCW endorsement, that is incorrect.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Just sent the email I have from them..... The State Parks I've visited since CCW became law have their buildings posted.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    Just sent the email I have from them..... The State Parks I've visited since CCW became law have their buildings posted.
    It still wouldn't be "a violation of state law" for a person with a valid CCW endorsement to enter them with a firearm.
    Last edited by cshoff; 05-26-2011 at 09:47 PM.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    It still would be "a violation of state law" for a person with a valid CCW endorsement to enter them with a firearm.
    To enter the State Park or the Buildings?
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    To enter the State Park or the Buildings?
    Either.

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    It still wouldn't be "a violation of state law" for a person with a valid CCW endorsement to enter them with a firearm.
    Had to correct my above post. Should have said wouldn't be.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Ok, I got it. Could be more direct, your talikg about the buildings and "asked to leave" or the LOEs are called, thus a "citation"?
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    Ok, I got it. Could be more direct, your talikg about the buildings and "asked to leave" or the LOEs are called, thus a "citation"?
    No, I am not being indirect at all. The only statute that specifies an unlawful act for entering a state government owned building with a firearm is RSMO 571.030.1.(8). Persons with a valid CCW endorsement are specifically exempted from that provision in RSMO 571.030.4. So, as I mentioned above, the person who responded to you in the email was incorrect, it is NOT a "violation of state law" to carry a firearm into a state-owned building if you possess a valid CCW endorsement. It isn't even an infraction or an "offense" that could warrant a "citation".

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Can they post the buildings in State park "No firearms"? That may actually be a complicated question, or not?
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

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    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    No, I am not being indirect at all. The only statute that specifies an unlawful act for entering a state government owned building with a firearm is RSMO 571.030.1.(8). Persons with a valid CCW endorsement are specifically exempted from that provision in RSMO 571.030.4. So, as I mentioned above, the person who responded to you in the email was incorrect, it is NOT a "violation of state law" to carry a firearm into a state-owned building if you possess a valid CCW endorsement. It isn't even an infraction or an "offense" that could warrant a "citation".
    In light of the above then do you carry into the State Capitol building when you are in Jefferson City? And if not why not?
    Last edited by 9026543; 05-27-2011 at 07:23 AM.

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    Can they post the buildings in State park "No firearms"? That may actually be a complicated question, or not?
    Yes, they can definitely post them, but the signs have no force of law as far as CCW endorsement holders are concerned.

    The point I am trying to make here is that, typical of government employees, they either purposefully misstate the law in an attempt to influence your actions, or they are simply ignorant of the law and go by what they "think" it says because they don't know any better. I was only pointing out his misstatement and am not necessarily suggesting that anyone with a valid CCW endorsement should or shouldn't disregard signs posted on park offices or other buildings. It is up to each individual to weigh their options and make their own decisions in that regard.

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9026543 View Post
    In light of the above then do you carry into the State Capitol building when you are in Jefferson City? And if not why not?
    It would depend on why I was there. If I was going just to take "the tour", then I'd probably carry. If I was going to testify at a hearing on a gun-related issue, then I probably wouldn't as a chance discovery of the weapon might be detrimental to issue ever seeing the light of day. Discretion is the better part of valor.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    It would depend on why I was there. If I was going just to take "the tour", then I'd probably carry. If I was going to testify at a hearing on a gun-related issue, then I probably wouldn't as a chance discovery of the weapon might be detrimental to issue ever seeing the light of day. Discretion is the better part of valor.
    I'm a bit surprised you'd even carry in the Capitol!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    I'm a bit surprised you'd even carry in the Capitol!
    Have you ever heard the old saying "talk is cheap"?

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9026543 View Post
    Have you ever heard the old saying "talk is cheap"?
    I'm not sure what you are trying to imply. They don't have metal detectors or use pat downs in the Capitol Building so unless you walked in with your gun exposed, or you said something about having one, nobody would ever know you were carrying. It wouldn't be any different than carrying into a park building or a Conservation Department Center.

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    I'm a bit surprised you'd even carry in the Capitol!
    Like I said, Marc, it would all depend on why I was there. It wouldn't be an arbitrary decision. Being how I usually only get to the Capitol 2 or 3 times each year, and usually for gun-related reasons (rallies, hearings, etc), I don't view it as being all that necessary.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    I'm not sure what you are trying to imply. They don't have metal detectors or use pat downs in the Capitol Building so unless you walked in with your gun exposed, or you said something about having one, nobody would ever know you were carrying. It wouldn't be any different than carrying into a park building or a Conservation Department Center.
    I agree there, just like the stores and such, not saying I ignore the signs... but....
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

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    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    It still wouldn't be "a violation of state law" for a person with a valid CCW endorsement to enter them with a firearm.
    I think it is simply a matter of semantics and a lack of understanding of the wording of the law.

    Violation depends upon ones use of the word. Under the CCW law, carry into any of the 17 places or a posted location is not criminal but it would be a violation of the law meaning you did in fact do the opposite of what the law says you should do, however it is not a "violation of the law" in the legal sense of the phrase aka it is not a criminal matter and you will not have a penalty if you do it unless you are kind of stupid after it is noticed and refuse to leave, no different than if you are asked to leave for any other reason.

    I personally think the wording was on purpose to make it vague to get folks to comply with others wishes.

    I tend to agree with hoff, when responding to an inquiry an authority SHOULD be accurate in their response, however, I doubt any level of training is employed to determine that they even can, let alone will do as much. Basically you get the individuals opinion of what the law states vs an accurate portrayal of it.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

  23. #23
    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    I think it is simply a matter of semantics and a lack of understanding of the wording of the law.

    Violation depends upon ones use of the word. Under the CCW law, carry into any of the 17 places or a posted location is not criminal but it would be a violation of the law meaning you did in fact do the opposite of what the law says you should do, however it is not a "violation of the law" in the legal sense of the phrase aka it is not a criminal matter and you will not have a penalty if you do it unless you are kind of stupid after it is noticed and refuse to leave, no different than if you are asked to leave for any other reason.
    That is incorrect. Carrying into ANY of the 17 places by a CCW endorsement holder, is not a violation of any state law at all. No semantics about it. No violation exists in any form unless/until you are asked to leave and you refuse. It is not a "violation", it is not an "infraction", and it is not "against the spirit of the law". Simply put, the entire section of 571.107.1(1) - (17) is written only as an acknowledgment on the state's part that they do not have the authority to force the entities mentioned in (1) - (17) to recognize your permit and allow you to carry on their property.

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