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Having Trouble Getting a Handgun. please help

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
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Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
My question would be, does by their definition ANY gun you buy with plans to resell once you're bored with it become a "straw purchase" (regardless of if they can prove it)? Or what if you see a great deal at a gun show and buy the gun to turn around and sell it for a profit? In both situations you only planned on being a temporary owner even if you didn't know who the final seller would be.

The straw purchase law is pretty retarded. It "should" simply be illegal to buy a gun for someone who isn't authorized to own one (aka felons). It shouldn't be illegal to buy a gun for someone (friend/family) who you know is legal to own the weapon.
I suspect that the ATF would be perfectly happy to outlaw private sales altogether. JMHO.

TFred
 

TFred

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Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
First, you are confusing committing a crime with being convicted for committing the crime. Just because there is not enough evidence to convict a person for a crime does not mean they were not guilty.

In your particular scenario, as written, Bob did not perform a straw purchase. Now, if Bob DID call Joe, and Joe said, "Heck yes! Get that gun for me and I'll pay you when we meet!" and Bob buys the gun from a licensed dealer on Joe's behalf, then a straw purchase is committed whether or not there is enough evidence to convict Joe and Bob. Now..... if Bob bought the gun on Joe's behalf from a private party...no straw purchase, because the straw purchase statute only applies to providing a false statement to a LICENSED dealer or manufacturer!
I still don't buy it. I don't think it is really a crime. What happens if Joe dies of a heart attack before Bob gets to his house? How can Bob be guilty of a crime then? Yet you would say he is already guilty as soon as he buys the gun.

Do you not see the fallacy of the reasoning here? This "crime" requires knowledge of the future.

This position (which I acknowledge is the position of the ATF) defines who is the purchaser of the gun based on what the actual purchaser intends to do with it.

No matter what a person may intend to do with the gun in the future, be it 15 seconds or 15 years, if they are using their own money to buy the gun, then they are the actual purchaser. Nothing can change the fact that the person who physically bought the gun, is the person who bought the gun.

This is what happens when you let bureaucrats try to think.

Even the ATF, in their guidelines on straw purchases, uses a fallacious reason to describe a straw purchase (for an otherwise qualified person) as a crime:

"...the straw purchaser
violates Federal law by making
false statements on Form 4473 to the
licensee with respect to the identity of
the actual purchaser of the firearm, as
well as the actual purchaser's residence
address and date of birth."

This is simply not true, because the actual purchaser is the one filling out the form, and they would use their own address and their own date of birth, not lies, hence not crimes. The only crime described by the ATF in this regard assumes that the person filling out the form is not the purchaser. Tell me how a person who is standing in front of a counter, handing over their own money is not the purchaser.

Again, I fully believe the ATF knows they are not on strong ground, but that has never kept them from putting people in jail.

TFred
 

tcmech

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Welcome to the board, my personal advice is to check the virginia gun trader site, and if you see a handgun you are interested in pm the seller, inform them of your situation, age, and make an offer. The worst thing that can happen is you will be told no.

I do not know if it is legal for a 20 year old to possess a handgun where you are stationed so you will definitely want to make sure no laws are violated in that state.
 

TFred

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Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
I know this is a bit of a topic deviation... I dug out the Firearms Transaction Record portion of the Federal Law, which I've copied below. At least the first few paragraphs, after this it covers special cases, but feel free to check the source.

Nowhere in this section does it outline any restriction on the transferee with regard to what they may or may not do with the gun, or whether they may or may not already have a plan to dispose of the gun at the time of the transfer.

If you can find actual law that says otherwise, I would be very happy to see it.

TFred

Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (2005)

Starting on Page 63:

§ 478.124 Firearms transaction record.

(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed
dealer shall not sell or otherwise dispose, temporarily or
permanently, of any firearm to any person, other than another
licensee, unless the licensee records the transaction on a
firearms transaction record, Form 4473: Provided, That a
firearms transaction record, Form 4473, shall not be required
to record the disposition made of a firearm delivered to a
licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing when
such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person
from whom received.

(b) A licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed
dealer shall retain in alphabetical (by name of purchaser),
chronological (by date of disposition), or numerical (by
transaction serial number) order, and as a part of the required
records, each Form 4473 obtained in the course of transferring
custody of the firearms.

(c)

(1) Prior to making an over-thecounter transfer of a firearm to
a nonlicen- see who is a resident of the State in which the
licensee's business premises is located, the licensed importer,
licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer so transferring the
firearm shall obtain a Form 4473 from the transferee showing
the transferee's name, sex, residence address (including county
or similar political subdivision), date and place of birth;
height, weight and race of the transferee; the transferee's
country of citizenship; the transferee's INS-issued alien
number or admission number; the transferee's State of
residence; and certification by the transferee that the
transferee is not prohibited by the Act from transporting or
shipping a firearm in interstate or foreign commerce or
receiving a firearm which has been shipped or transported in
interstate or foreign commerce or possessing a firearm in or
affecting commerce.

(2) In order to facilitate the transfer of a firearm and enable
NICS to verify the identity of the person acquiring the
firearm, ATF Form 4473 also requests certain optional
information. This information includes the transferee's social
security number. Such information may help avoid the
possibility of the transferee being misidentified as a felon or
other prohibited person.

(3) After the transferee has executed the Form 4473, the
licensee:

(i) Shall verify the identity of the transferee by examining
the identification document (as defined in § 478.11) presented,
and shall note on the Form 4473 the type of identification
used;

(ii) Shall, in the case of a transferee who is an alien legally
in the United States, cause the transferee to present
documentation establishing that the transferee is a resident of
the State (as defined in § 478.11) in which the licensee's
business premises is located, and shall note on the form the
documentation used. Examples of acceptable documentation
include utility bills or a lease agreement which show that the
transferee has resided in the State continuously for at least
90 days prior to the transfer of the firearm; and

(iii) Must, in the case of a transferee who is a nonimmigrant
alien who states that he or she falls within an exception to,
or has a waiver from, the nonimmigrant alien prohibition, have
the transferee present applicable documentation establishing
the exception or waiver, note on the Form 4473 the type of
documentation provided, and attach a copy of the documentation
to the Form 4473.

(iv) Shall comply with the requirements of § 478.102 and record
on the form the date on which the licensee contacted the NICS,
as well as any response provided by the system, including any
identification number provided by the system.

(4) The licensee shall identify the firearm to be transferred
by listing on the Form 4473 the name of the manufacturer, the
name of the importer (if any), the type, model, caliber or
gauge, and the serial number of the firearm.

(5) The licensee shall sign and date the form if the licensee
does not know or have reasonable cause to believe that the
transferee is disqualified by law from receiving the firearm
and transfer the firearm described on the Form 4473.
 
A

alphamale328

Guest
Wrong!!

Also, the question arises of the residency in Virginia of the OP. Home of record, paying taxes and having a driver's license does NOT establish residency in a state for the purposes of firearms transactions.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2004-08.pdf




One of two conditions must exist to establish residency in a state:

Active duty military orders to a state and/or physical presence in a state with the intention of making a home in that state. Virginia does not seem to satisfy either requirement for the OP, making it illegal for the OP to acquire a handgun in Virginia from a private party or FFL.​
I know for a fact I am a Virginia resident because i have a Virginia residence (house) and am registered to and have voted in VA. A VA voters registration card should be enough.
and "Active duty military orders to a state and/or physical presence in a state with the intention of making a home in that state." means if i have orders to virginia or i'm in Virginia and plan on Living there im a resident? than it seems a military member could purchase a gun in any state anyway. and also that ATF example says LICENSED dealer
 
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A

alphamale328

Guest
Believe whatever you want to.

The Federal regulation is 27 CFR 478.11:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...iv8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1&idno=27



And ATF interpretation:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2004-08.pdf



As I stated, the Federal definition of state of residence AND the ATF's interpretation of that regulation provide that at least one of two conditions must be met to establish residency - presence in the state with the intention of making a home there at the time of the presence in that state and/or active duty orders to a state. Nothing else is relevant including a driver's license, paying taxes, owning property, registered to vote, or home of record.

An example is provided in the same CFR quoted above:




Basically, if you don't go to work in a state every day or sleep in a state every night, you ain't a resident of that state, for the purposes of firearms transactions. I have had a Wyoming driver's license for 28 years. I've been registered to vote in Wyoming for 26 years. Wyoming has been my military home of record for 27 years. It has been illegal for me to obtain a firearm in Wyoming, other than a long gun from an FFL, for 24 years.
okay so where does it say I cant buy a handgun in VA, even if i wasnt a resident?
 

MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,383
Location
in front of my computer, WI
teecro said:
I was not aware that one needed to be 21 or older to purchase from an FFL; I can now understand the desire for the private sale.
But asking someone to buy a gun for you just sets of all kinds of bells and lights
When I read post #1, I read that he was trying to find out where he could make a (perfectly legal) private purchase. As far as we know, he isn't a prohibited person (don't know one way or the other), so buying private property from a private citizen is perfectly legal.

Aknazer said:
...it's illegal to buy a gun for someone who is not able to legally buy that gun.
As you're under 21 you're not able to legally buy the gun from the FFL
But s/he's legal to buy from a private citizen.
A car dealer may decide not to sell to an 18yo because they can't get credit, but it'd be perfectly legal for that same young adult to buy a car from a private citizen. (Not exactly parallel, I know, but closest I could come up with.)

TFred said:
...my personal opinion, if Tom buys a gun with his own money, then sells it to Joe at any time after that, it would generally be a legal private sale. Again IMHO: even if Tom plans prior to the time he buys it to sell the gun to Joe.
I agree. (Rearranged the words in the last sentence to make the meaning clearer.)

Something that's unclear to me, and maybe someone who's a dealer could give an opinion on this, how do you know when it's a straw purchase?

I mean, if I take a friend who's more experienced w/ guns with me to a store to get advice & reassure me that the staff isn't blowing smoke or trying to direct me to something inappropriate, it could look a lot like I'm trying to make a straw purchase.

(And by now, at least here in my own area, I'm comfortable w/ 2 stores & their staff treating me well. Also pretty sure I could detect BS if I went somewhere else; certainly would stop any "look at the pretty pink gun! isn't it nice and small for a woman?" idiocy in its tracks.)
 

PHB

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
10
Location
Missouri
Since you are at this time active military I would think all of these questions could be answered though them.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
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Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
Agreed, MKEGal. That section of U.S. Code only applies to sales to prohibited persons. It does not apply to lawful sales, even sales from a person in one state to another person from another state provided the laws of both states support the sale.

So yes, I, a resident of CO, can travel to VA, meet with the seller, buy a firearm, and transport it back to CO.

If you believe otherwise you need to re-read the section quoted by NavyLCDR.
 
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Aknazer

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Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
When I read post #1, I read that he was trying to find out where he could make a (perfectly legal) private purchase. As far as we know, he isn't a prohibited person (don't know one way or the other), so buying private property from a private citizen is perfectly legal.


But s/he's legal to buy from a private citizen.
A car dealer may decide not to sell to an 18yo because they can't get credit, but it'd be perfectly legal for that same young adult to buy a car from a private citizen. (Not exactly parallel, I know, but closest I could come up with.)

My point was that he couldn't have someone else buy the gun for him from an FFL and I took the first post as him not knowing where he could legally get a gun.

Since you are at this time active military I would think all of these questions could be answered though them.


Ha. Being in the military doesn't mean that the people know the laws. Hell I have had a hard time getting info from security forces regarding the bases regs regarding guns, and you expect the people to know national law? And soon I get to write my senator in regards to the crap the new base commander is trying to pull in regards to the base exchange selling guns. So just because someone is military sadly doesn't mean that they know about guns and they can even be anti-gun (and I've met multiple antis in the military).
 

Cavalryman

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
296
Location
Anchorage, Alaska
Something that's unclear to me, and maybe someone who's a dealer could give an opinion on this, how do you know when it's a straw purchase?

I mean, if I take a friend who's more experienced w/ guns with me to a store to get advice & reassure me that the staff isn't blowing smoke or trying to direct me to something inappropriate, it could look a lot like I'm trying to make a straw purchase.

You can't ever be 100% sure, but the nature of the input from the "friend" can provide a lot of clues. "Well, Bob, for you I think..." has a different meaning from "No, not that one. I like this one better." The general rule is that if anything about the situation makes me uneasy, I won't make the sale. It is always a good idea to ask, "Who is going to actually own this gun?" Even then, if for any reason I don't believe them, the deal is off. There are plenty of people wanting to buy guns; there's no reason to chance selling to someone who will give it to a criminal.

There is a lot of gray area in the law. If someone I know tells me he wants to buy a handgun as a gift for his 20 year old son/daughter, I'd probably be okay with that. My wife bought a pistol as a gift for our 18 year old son. That's perfectly legal. On the other hand, it might not be legal if they had made a prior agreement for him to give her the money for the pistol either before or after the purchase. That would just depend upon how the BATFE wanted to interpret the law on that particular day.

The safest option for the OP would be to buy a pistol from a private individual in the state in which he is stationed. It might be interpreted as okay to buy one in Virginia, but I wouldn't count upon it.
 
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