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Thread: Is AFIS part of the Virginia CHP fingerprint check?

  1. #1
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Is AFIS part of the Virginia CHP fingerprint check?

    Saw this blog post on the local newspaper site today. Got me to wondering, are fingerprints submitted with a CHP application compared against this AFIS database?

    TFred

    New fingerprint system scores its first hit in the city

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I'm sure it is TFred.
    You don't think the Government would pass up a chance to get freely submitted data on people do you?

    Most people don't realize it but if you are the victim of a crime and call the police to take a report...all those invasive questions that they ask go into a local database for future use.

    If you give them something, fingerprints, information, DNA...anything, it will be cataloged and kept somewhere.

  3. #3
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    It would seem to make sense... from the CHP code, we have:

    D. [...] to be forwarded with the fingerprints through the Central Criminal Records Exchange to the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the purpose of obtaining criminal history record information regarding the applicant, and obtaining fingerprint identification information from federal records pursuant to criminal investigations by state and local law-enforcement agencies.

    The second part would seem to cover the "unsolved crimes" nature of AFIS. I was hoping for a "someone knows for sure" rather than just an assumption, even though it's probably a pretty good one.

    TFred

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    Damn government, how dare they submit prints to catch criminals and hold them accountable (sarcasm).

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Damn government, how dare they submit prints to catch criminals and hold them accountable (sarcasm).
    Don't be throwin' no rocks in my thread!

    If you can contribute to the answer, please do so.

    My question is sincere, and I really would like to know the actual answer to it.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 05-25-2011 at 04:45 PM. Reason: Oops, wrong word.

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    Regular Member Hoplite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Damn government, how dare they submit prints to catch criminals and hold them accountable (sarcasm).
    What happens to fingerprints used for the CHP background investigation?

    Assuming a CHP is granted, it seems like an unnecessary intrusion to add them to AFIS since the individual who has been fingerprinted has been found not to have a criminal record.

    What justification is there for maintaining biometric data on law abiding citizens?

  7. #7
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    What happens to fingerprints used for the CHP background investigation?

    Assuming a CHP is granted, it seems like an unnecessary intrusion to add them to AFIS since the individual who has been fingerprinted has been found not to have a criminal record.

    What justification is there for maintaining biometric data on law abiding citizens?
    From the same paragraph in the code linked above:

    Where feasible and practical, the local law-enforcement agency may transfer information electronically to the State Police instead of inked fingerprint cards. Upon completion of the criminal history records check, the State Police shall return the fingerprint cards to the submitting local agency or, in the case of scanned fingerprints, destroy the electronic record. The local agency shall then promptly notify the person that he has 21 days from the date of the notice to request return of the fingerprint cards, if any. All fingerprint cards not claimed by the applicant within 21 days of notification by the local agency shall be destroyed. All optically scanned fingerprints shall be destroyed upon completion of the criminal history records check without requiring that the applicant be notified. Fingerprints taken for the purposes described in this section shall not be copied, held or used for any other purposes.
    However, if they go to the FBI, I suppose all bets are off. The FBI is probably not particularly concerned with whether they follow the Code of Virginia.

    If we could get the FBI to admit that they don't destroy the prints, that might be some leverage for stopping them from being sent at all. (By that, I mean modifying the requirement in the code.)

    TFred

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    Regular Member Hoplite's Avatar
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    No fingerprints were required when I submitted my CHP application (Fairfax) but I don't know if that's because they no longer require them or because my prints are on file because I'm military.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    No fingerprints were required when I submitted my CHP application (Fairfax) but I don't know if that's because they no longer require them or because my prints are on file because I'm military.
    Each jurisdiction must specifically authorize the fingerprints, if they want to. If Fairfax required the prints, they would have made you submit them with the CHP application.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Each jurisdiction must specifically authorize the fingerprints, if they want to. If Fairfax required the prints, they would have made you submit them with the CHP application.TFred
    Fairfax dropped its fingerprint requirement between '95 and '97. I got printed when I applied (the day shall-issue began), and didn't at my first renewal. I was at the County Council meeting where VCDL basically shredded the arguments for keeping fingerprints. I pointed out that the Army had fingerprinted me, but that was for nukes, not handguns.

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    TFred,

    Sorry man, didn't mean to take away from your question. I have no first hand knowledge if they run all applicants thru AFIS. I can't find anything in the code specifically banning that, but I am not sure if localities would go through the trouble to.

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    An FYI about fingerprinting

    I'm not a US Citizen, I'm a Permanent Resident, a Green Card Holder if you want to call it that. I came to the US a little over 10 years ago in order to marry my girlfriend who is a US Citizen and didn't want to live in the UK.

    When I was interviewed by the (then) INS after we were married they fingerprinted me. My first job in the US involved handling very large sums of cash, I was fingerprinted again during the orientation for that job. I have a Class A CDL (for those who don't know, it means I'm allowed to drive a tractor trailer) with a Hazardous Materials Endorsement. Guess what, for the Hazmat I was fingerprinted, not when I first got it but by the time it came up for renewal a law had been passed making it necessary for all Hazmat Endorsement holders to have a background check completed.

    Every time I return to the US and go through Passport Control I go through the same line as US Citizens, show them my UK passport and my Green Card and then, you guessed it, I get fingerprinted again. One time I just got to wondering why, considering that it seemed like every government agency already had my prints so I asked the Immigration Officer why he needed them yet again. It was a polite exchange, I told him I wasn't arguing but I was just curious as to why they need them yet again, and his answer was the one thing I hadn't thought of. He said that it was to make sure I was still the same person, that my identity hadn't been stolen so that an illegal could use my information to get in the country.

    For the record I live in Henrico County where, guess what, they fingerprint CHP applicants.

    I don't like the idea that all these agencies have my fingerprints, even though I have zero plans to commit any crimes. However, in order for me to keep living in this country and keep the job I have, it's a price I have to accept. On the plus side, the last time I purchased a firearm when the dealer punched in my details for the background check, it came back as approved within a couple of seconds instead of the 5 or 10 minutes other people were waiting in that store that day. Some of you may think that's poor compensation for the invasion of my privacy, but I gotta take what I can get and see the silver linings instead of the clouds.

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Each jurisdiction must specifically authorize the fingerprints, if they want to. If Fairfax required the prints, they would have made you submit them with the CHP application.

    TFred
    It's an interesting question TFred although as I said, I expect they do.
    I'll make a couple of calls next week when I get back in the burbs and see if I can find out for certain.

    If they do keep them, it makes a powerful argument for completely eliminating fingerprints for CHP's.
    Last edited by peter nap; 05-25-2011 at 11:08 PM.

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    I think we can safely assume the FBI keeps anything it gets.

    In fact, given their history, even if they denied it, I would automatically assume they are lying.

    FBI are the guys who kept a dossier on Martin Luther King and how many other rights activists? And, gave some files to Hillary Clinton's office in the White House?

    And recently were discovered to have violated the law something like 4K times with regard to wiretaps, warrants, and the Patriot Act, or something along those lines?

    Remember poor Richard Jewel, the guy who found the bomb at the summer Olympics and the way the FBI tried to frame him? Or, Dr. Steven Hatfill, the guy they very publicly went after for the anthrax letters, totally destroying his career?

    Etc, etc, etc.

    Also, I've come across info somewhere to the effect FBI keeps info until the subject is or would be 99 years old. Don't recall where I came across that, though.

    Safely assume? Probably better to "safer to assume."
    Last edited by Citizen; 05-25-2011 at 11:21 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I think we can safely assume the FBI keeps anything it gets.

    In fact, given their history, even if they denied it, I would automatically assume they are lying.

    FBI are the guys who kept a dossier on Martin Luther King and how many other rights activists? And, gave some files to Hillary Clinton's office in the White House?

    And recently were discovered to have violated the law something like 4K times with regard to wiretaps, warrants, and the Patriot Act, or something along those lines?

    Remember poor Richard Jewel, the guy who found the bomb at the summer Olympics and the way the FBI tried to frame him? Or, Dr. Steven Hatfill, the guy they very publicly went after for the anthrax letters, totally destroying his career?

    Etc, etc, etc.

    Also, I've come across info somewhere to the effect FBI keeps info until the subject is or would be 99 years old. Don't recall where I came across that, though.

    Safely assume? Probably better to "safer to assume."
    Not directly related but food for thought about information retention:

    The personal data of millions of passengers who fly between the US and Europe, including credit card details, phone numbers and home addresses, may be stored by the US department of homeland security for 15 years, according to a draft agreement between Washington and Brussels leaked to the Guardian.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Just to reiterate, I'm primarily asking about AFIS, not whether the FBI keeps the prints.

    But yeah, I agree, you'd have to be an idiot to think they don't keep them. I guess the question is, what if they ever get a "hit" on their secret, illegal database? What would they do then? Not hard to imagine a scenario where revealing the hit (say to initiate a prosecution, etc.) would also reveal their illegal database. I guess they are creative enough to get around that as well.

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Just to reiterate, I'm primarily asking about AFIS, not whether the FBI keeps the prints.

    But yeah, I agree, you'd have to be an idiot to think they don't keep them. I guess the question is, what if they ever get a "hit" on their secret, illegal database? What would they do then? Not hard to imagine a scenario where revealing the hit (say to initiate a prosecution, etc.) would also reveal their illegal database. I guess they are creative enough to get around that as well.

    TFred
    They work closely with Local LEA's Tfred.
    In almost every district there is a multi jurisdictional task force or two...Fugitive, Drug, Etc.

    It's a simple and common task to just notify the Officers working on the task force of the hit. From there it becomes a state matter unless it appears the subject is out of state. Then the FBI gets their own UFAP in addition to the State warrant.

    None of this requires the Feds reveal any information other than there was a hit during a routine scan. The locals will put the case together using other evidence.

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    Prints

    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    I'm not a US Citizen, I'm a Permanent Resident, a Green Card Holder if you want to call it that. I came to the US a little over 10 years ago in order to marry my girlfriend who is a US Citizen and didn't want to live in the UK.

    When I was interviewed by the (then) INS after we were married they fingerprinted me. My first job in the US involved handling very large sums of cash, I was fingerprinted again during the orientation for that job. I have a Class A CDL (for those who don't know, it means I'm allowed to drive a tractor trailer) with a Hazardous Materials Endorsement. Guess what, for the Hazmat I was fingerprinted, not when I first got it but by the time it came up for renewal a law had been passed making it necessary for all Hazmat Endorsement holders to have a background check completed.

    Every time I return to the US and go through Passport Control I go through the same line as US Citizens, show them my UK passport and my Green Card and then, you guessed it, I get fingerprinted again. One time I just got to wondering why, considering that it seemed like every government agency already had my prints so I asked the Immigration Officer why he needed them yet again. It was a polite exchange, I told him I wasn't arguing but I was just curious as to why they need them yet again, and his answer was the one thing I hadn't thought of. He said that it was to make sure I was still the same person, that my identity hadn't been stolen so that an illegal could use my information to get in the country.

    For the record I live in Henrico County where, guess what, they fingerprint CHP applicants.

    I don't like the idea that all these agencies have my fingerprints, even though I have zero plans to commit any crimes. However, in order for me to keep living in this country and keep the job I have, it's a price I have to accept. On the plus side, the last time I purchased a firearm when the dealer punched in my details for the background check, it came back as approved within a couple of seconds instead of the 5 or 10 minutes other people were waiting in that store that day. Some of you may think that's poor compensation for the invasion of my privacy, but I gotta take what I can get and see the silver linings instead of the clouds.
    Don't feel singled out as an (legal) immigrant. I (natural born citizen, to citizen parents) have had my prints taken about 40-50 times since age 17... (26+ years). US Navy took them at least 5 times in 4 years of service. Feds took them a few more times for Title 2 firearms. At least 5 times for some of the 6 state firearms permits that I have. Texas takes both thumbprints every time I renew my DL. Feds took 'em again for a security clearance and again for a Homeland Security Building pass. Once more for a private company "Clear" pass to get through airline security faster. I think Canada took them for a work permit...

    Theoretically I don't believe any of these are supposed to end up in AFIS. I couldn't be sure if they do, but I don't think they're supposed to. I was once arrested for a misdemeanor. I don't THINK they printed/photo'ed me...charges were eventually dropped (long time ago), but if they did print I assume that might have showed up in AFIS.

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    Can someone explain to me how, if LE keeps a "secret database" on law-abiding citizens they are not the "secret police?" Ie. a characteristic that distinguishes the land of the free from godless communist dictatorships.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Irish_Dave's Avatar
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    I asked about this a while ago and I was told that the fingerprints taken for my LTC (in Massachusetts) are checked through AFIS but not recorded into AFIS. The fingerprints are only stored by the Firearms Records Bureau. I would imagine that if law enforcement is conducting an investigation that they would be able to access these prints if a suspect has prints in the Firearms Bureau's database but not in AFIS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by architect View Post
    Can someone explain to me how, if LE keeps a "secret database" on law-abiding citizens they are not the "secret police?" Ie. a characteristic that distinguishes the land of the free from godless communist dictatorships.
    This is a very good question.

    It puts a whole new light on cops who arrest people for recording their public actions, too. Obviously some police want to be "secret police."

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