I'm still debating on how I would respond. Just from reading the forums and other websites, I've seen some that do give up their ID and others that do not. The last thing I want to do is frustrate a LE, but at the same time, I don't want to entertain their pleasure of harassing me either. If I do end up in conversation, then I'll make sure to get the name and badge #.
Any advice would be appreciated.
:uhoh:
First, ya gotta know your rights before you can exercise them.
Below are linked some videos to watch that make a good fast introduction.*
Another important point is to separate rights and law (statutes and court opinions) from police encounter tactics. Tactics are
how you apply rights and law. Law does not automatically translate into tactics. Among other things, tactics also need to take into account that some police lie, plant evidence, twist the law, ignore the law, and can get away with violating rights to a certain degree, etc. Meaning, they're not all Boy Scouts. And, your police encounter tactics need to take this into account.
With regard to identity demands from cops, there are a few local jurisdictions that seriously penalize refusing to identify yourself to a cop under certain circumstances. The trouble is that an OCer most likely will not be able to know for sure whether those circumstances actually exist while the encounter is occurring.
But, there is some good news on this front.
First, I've never heard of cop who asked for a suspect to verbally identify himself. Its always been, "I wanna see sum ID!" Or, "Where's your ID?" Or, just, "Gimme your ID." A demand for an identity
document rather than name and address verbally given.
Now, three US Supreme Court cases** add up to mean that there must first be a carefully worded statute requiring a person to submit an identity document
and good*** reason for the cop to suspect your involvement in a crime before the cop can demand an identity document. To date, none of the local ordinances requiring a person to identify himself to a cop that I have seen included the carefully worded aspect about an identity document. Meaning locally if a cop demands an identity document, he is more than likely exceeding his authority. This is good news because it opens the identity document demander cop to a formal complaint on this point.
Now, what about verbally identifying oneself under certain circumstances? Several local jurisdictions have ordinances requiring it. There is a list in another thread. And, like I said earlier, the OCer is most likely not going to know for sure whether those circumstances exist (whether the cop has good reason to suspect the OCer's involvement in a crime). So, what to do?
I can't keep up with which local jurisdictions have identity ordinances. Plus, they can change--all it takes is county board or city council vote. So, my plan is to hand over my ID when demanded while politely verbally refusing consent. "Officer, no offense. I know you're probably just doing your job, but I am only providing this ID because you demanded it. I do not consent. (while handing it over)" This has the advantage of complying. And, setting him up for the formal complaint. While preserving my face from kissing concrete if he is a bad cop. And, if it later turns out the cop did not have good reason to suspect me, or that locality did not have an ordinance compelling me to identify myself, then I've got the cop on more complaint points.
Given the way cops demand identity documents without authority, its a pretty good bet I'll have at least that for a formal complaint. Since he is going to find out my name when the formal complaint lands on his boss' desk, anyway, I'm not terribly concerned with him getting my ID during the encounter itself. Although, there is some legal liability in providing identity if not necessary. Its not frequent, but it has happened to one OCer. See the third court case listed below. Next to last sentence in the opinion.
Sterile carry is definitely an option. I just can never remember to leave my wallet, taking only cash and credit card. Plus, there are plenty of times I transition between OC and CC and need that CHP with me, which has to be provided with ID if the CHP is requested by a cop (VA Code 18.2-308).
After coming up to speed on all that, you can then start reading the stuff at the thread linked below**** to find out even more.
*Videos:
Busted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA
Dont Talk to Police:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
Ten Rules:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmrbNLt7Om8&feature=player_embedded
**Court Cases on Identity Demands
Brown vs Texas
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0443_0047_ZO.html
Kolender vs Lawson
http://supreme.justia.com/us/461/352/case.html
Hiibel vs 6th Judicial Court
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-5554.ZO.html
PS: You can actually see the police encounter that led to this court case on YouTube. The cop had a dash cam. Just type Hiibel's name into the YouTube search feature.
*** "Good reason" according to the
courts, not what you or I would think is good reason. You'd be surprised at what the courts have said was good enough reason.
****
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...Amendment-Resources-Here!!&highlight=inchoate
