I didn't want to hijack the MSI Summary thread any further. The application actually looks pretty straightforward ie not much different than most shall issue states except for the three references (not a problem) and Line 9A (reason for a handgun permit - be specific).
So my question is does a non-resident who has not only a resident permit from his home state, but several other non-resident permits from other states have a reasonable chance of success in MD? Right now I only drive straight through MD under FOPA rules. It would be nice to spend some time exploring the state, especially the eastern shore, but not at the expense of my 2A rights. I can legally carry in every state surrounding MD.
So what do you all think? Any hope, or is it really time and money wasted?
One other thing. The part that has to be notarized on page 13 has a line specifying which MD county the notary is in. Does that mean I would have to complete and sign the application in MD, or would they accept an out-of-state notary? I'd hate to think something like that would be cause for denial.
At this time, it is likely a waste of time, but hey, who knows.
On the Md. notary thing - they probably treat it the same way they do permits. If it wasn't granted by Maryland, then ..............
You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC
Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.
There are only a few conditions under which MD MAY grant you a permit
1. Documented threats against your life or previous documented attacks
2. Transportation of large sums of cash with bank deposit slips as proof
3. Carrying of medicine and prescription pads (Doctors)
Even if you wrere to get one,they are restricted to the activity that was approved and were granted a permit for. That's it.
In other words you will not get a permit to carry in MD unless one of the three conditions above is met and if it is granted, it will be restricted to the activity used as the basis for the approval.
Pray the national reciprocity bill passes because IMO that's the only way you will be allowed to carry in MD. Perhaps the SAF lawsuit will change things. we'll see.
Last edited by swinokur; 05-27-2011 at 01:50 PM.
Call them and ask. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't matter.Originally Posted by district9
You forgot three of the other qualifications:
4. Donate lots of money to the current Governor's campaign
5. Are a flaming anti-gun elected official like Babs Mikulski (and by some accounts, Brian Frosh and Sandy Rosenberg...)
6. Meet the "WWW" requirement...
As a general rule, if you get a permit issued for the above "reason#1", it will be an "unrestricted" permit.
Such permits are about as common as a TeaParty Member in Bethesda...
In MD, the State Police seem to think that money and drugs are valuable enough to protect with a concealed handgun (even though, under MD law, it is illegal to use deadly force in defense of property...) but that the lives of Citizens and their families are NOT valueable enough to protect in the same manner (which, under MD law is actually protected with a Criminal Immunity statute...)
If National Reciprocity gets passed, MD will simply repeal their Permitting program, so that NOBODY can get a MD permit, and will only issue "emergency permits" on a case-by-case basis with sign-offs by the AG and the Governor to their special anointed cronies.
There is NO WAY that O'Malley would ever allow Proles to carry in HIS state. Even if he had to violate the MD Constitution, the US Constitution, and Federal Law to do it...
Last edited by Dreamer; 02-26-2012 at 03:41 PM.
It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
--Barry Goldwater, 1964
That's why I'm hesitant about spending the money and time. I can pass any background/training checks they throw at me, but I can't honestly list any of those reasons. I simply would like to visit MD (other than driving through under FOPA) under the same conditions that I can visit PA, WV, VA, DE.
That sounds pretty bad, and makes me think of something. Some states have a question on their application asking if you have ever been denied a handgun permit by any state or local authority. What effect would a denial by a state like MD have one's record/chances when applying in other more enlightened states?
IMO don't bother. Pray the National Reciprocity bill passes. That's the only way you will be able to carry here.
I agree.At this time, it is likely a waste of time, but hey, who knows.
On the Md. notary thing - they probably treat it the same way they do permits. If it wasn't granted by Maryland, then ..............
Back in 2001 I applied for a MD CHL and even had an assistant states attorney and a FBI agent who wrote letters on my behalf stating that I needed a CHL for self defense because of a case that I was involved with as a witness, and I still didn't get one.
In 2002 I quickly moved out of that hell hole state.
Last edited by Sig229; 05-29-2011 at 06:38 PM.
"Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson
OK I talked to a helpful guy at the MSP. The notary does not have to happen in MD.At this time, it is likely a waste of time, but hey, who knows.
On the Md. notary thing - they probably treat it the same way they do permits. If it wasn't granted by Maryland, then ..............
Yes. they can be VERY helpful, and will lead you to believe that if you "follow the rules" you can get a permit.
Then then they will gladly take your $75 -- and you'll never hear from them again.
The MD PCH program is the governmental equivalent of a gypsy driveway paving business...
The catch-22 in MD is that there ARE NO RULES for the issuance of permits--the process is COMPLETELY discretionary. There is NO training requirement. There is NO statutory definition for a "good and substantial reason". There is NO provision for people who have previously held MD permits to be sure they can easily renew them (renewals are often denied for no reason). There is NO "RKBA Clause" in the MD State Constitution. There are, in fact NO statutory rules for the issuance of permits that we can put our fingers on.
It is essentially money down the drain. However, I would suggest that ANYONE with the extra money to throw away apply for a MD permit, so that we can inflate their "rejection" statistics. One of the difficulties with getting "Shall Issue" passed in MD is that people know its impossible to get a MD permit, so very few people apply. They actually have a VERY low rejection rate on applications--because the only people that apply are people who KNOW they will get one because they are well-connected.
If a bunch of people--law abiding citizens who have permits in other states--start applying and getting rejected wholesale--that can work in the favor of the current lawsuit that Alan Gura and SAF have against MD (Wollard).
MD's argument is that there is no "injury" to the general public from their current issuance policies, because their statistics show that almost every application they take in gets approved. What they won't tell the court is the reason why that is, is because everyone knows that the only people who apply in MD are people who's connections guarantee they will get a permit, because all the law-abiding people know the MSP only issues permits to people who are rich, famous, or make the correct types of political contributions...
I'd like to see a day int he near future where MD has a 95% rejection rate on their permit apps. And that could happen VERY easily. If just 20% of the "regular citizens" in contiguous states to MD who have permits in their home state applied, (and most likely they would ALL be rejected), this would skew their issuance stats so much that it would be nearly impossible for them to argue "no injury" in the Wollard case...
Is "Shall Issue" in MD worth $75 to every person who lawfully carries in the Mid Atlantic region?
Well, most of us are so fed up with the corruption, graft, favoritism nepotism, and blatant unconstitutionality of Annapolis and Pikesville that we don't think MD is worth even a single penny of our money. And since the majority of the citizens in the "4 Urban Counties) seem to actually ENJOY their tailspin into serfdom, it can be awfully difficult for the rest of us to muster an iota of "give a damn" for gun rights in the PRM.
But perhaps, a little creative civil disobedience in the form of a Permit Application Avalanche would help in the Wollard case. Imagine if Alan Gura could subpoena a few THOUSAND law-abiding permit holders from other states to testify on Wollards behalf against the MSP for their spurious and arbitrary issuance policies.
In THAT light, throwing $75 down the "MD Permit App Toilet" seems like a MUCH more effective investment of our money that "donating" to some local "gun rights organization"...
We've got to start thinking SERIOUSLY outside the box with MD folks. They don't play by the rules there--in fact, there ARE no rules, and they get to make it up as they go with regards to issuance of permits in MD.
Its time to stop plaing by the ever-changing guidelines that Pikesville pulls out of thin air, and do something REALLY creative. If they want to play a game of Administrative Wack-a-Mole, then we just need to put down our single hammer of Justice and Procedure, and bring in a few metaphorical B-17s full of mallets and open the bomb bay doors all at once...
If we want to get this ship out of an ice jam, we gotta ROCK THE BOAT...
Last edited by Dreamer; 06-03-2011 at 02:18 PM.
It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
--Barry Goldwater, 1964
Well the total cost is more like 150 bucks when you add in fingerprints, FBI background check and mailing costs. I'm still on the fence about this. I will say the guy I talked to at the MSP did NOT try to mislead me about the chance of getting a permit. He was very clear about MD being a may issue state.
Last edited by district9; 06-03-2011 at 09:00 PM.
I didn't realize that MD charged extra for a NICS check. Interesting thing about that--NICS checks are free--the entire NICS program is funded through the FBI's budget, and there is no fee to access the NICS system for governmental agencies, other than their own time, which takes about 10 minutes.
And they are NOT charging you for the FBI to do a "background check" like they do for security clearances. The FBI does not do background investigations for States or Municipalities unless it is for a government position requiring a clearance.
And if they WERE doing such checks, about half the people who DO have "unrestricted" permits in MD would be disqualified anyway, for their legal history, sexual proclivities, history of drug and alcohol abuse, etc...
Just one more example of the graft and corruption that is endemic in MSP...
Last edited by Dreamer; 06-03-2011 at 09:24 PM.
It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
--Barry Goldwater, 1964
Very true!
Unless you are related to a high ranking MD politician, your chances of getting a CHL in MD are extremely low.
As a regular citizen, your chances are higher going out at night and standing in a field waiting to get abducted by aliens.
"Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson
The exact numbers are 75 for the application fee plus 37.25 for the background check. That's 112.25 total. They also require MSP and FBI fingerprint cards which costs me 5 per card at my local sheriff. So now we're up to 122.25. Plus notary costs and mailing costs which get you close to 150.
Last edited by district9; 06-04-2011 at 07:02 AM. Reason: grammar
That doesn't sound encouraging.
Funny thing is, being abducted by aliens and applying for a MD carry license almost always end up with the same result--you end up confused, disoriented, and you ultimately get it in the ***...
Last edited by Dreamer; 06-04-2011 at 11:28 AM.
It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
--Barry Goldwater, 1964
This is an excellent idea. So can we count on you to start the ball rolling by applying for your permit? Every rejection counts right?
You know an interesting point about this is what I asked in my OP ie what effect would a denial from MD have on applying to other states since most applications (including MD's) ask if you have ever been denied a firearms permit from any state or local jurisdiction.
Don't see this having any real effect on other permits - just let them know it was Maryland.
Better yet, don't waste your time and money with Md.
You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC
Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.
I looked at both FL and UT websites, as they are very popular states for NR CCW permits. Although there may be a question on the actual application neither state's web site mentions that as a reason for disqualification.
As Grape said, a MD rejection doesn't indicate anything more than MD's "good and sufficient" requirement being the reason for the rejection.
According to our discussions with officials in VA, UT and FL.....no effect whatsoever. They know how restrictive MD's process is and don't consider denial a disqualifying factor.
OK guys, thanks for the info. Any other downsides to applying other than the money spent ie do the MSP maintain files on people who applied but were denied, and if so how do they use this info (sorry for sounding paranoid, but some of the things I'm reading about how MD issues permits are a little creepy)?
All applications are filed, whether approved or not and become a matter of record.
The MSP hasn't even the funding to process the IBIS materials and are running long on processing purchase paperwork, so it's highly improbable that anyone is "using" anything with regards to the application materials.
Despite the hyperbole, the people working the licensing division are for the most part regular people just doing their jobs.
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