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Thread: Something to talk about...

  1. #1
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    Something to talk about...

    Hey! This should get some discussion going! I've posted a couple of items at

    http://comdinet.com/cc.php

    I don't care which way you fall on these issues, the point here is to get you thinking about them, and making your own decisions based on a different viewpoint. (HINT: Not everyone that will shy away from you in the store or on the street will do it for the reasons you think! Avoidance is our way of saying "We're glad you're here!" Your open carry absolutely makes me safer... so why will you hate me???)

    Have Fun! I'll check back on the discussion when I have the opportunity. Interesting food for thought.

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    I am on the fence still about the open carry thing. I haven't really done much of it. I see both sides of it cc vs oc. I personally will judge each place I visit as I get there. For instance I was in walmart today (busy as all get outs) I choose cc because I was in a hurry and didn't want to have any unwanted attention from the three cops parked out front (assuming they was dealing with shoplifter or something like that). After things slowed down I did open carry in Taco Bell and got a postitive response from the state trooper that was also eating there. He basicly said it was nice to see people getting what is duly right to them, then asked about the firearm itself (hows it shoot, cost, model, why I chose it over a smaller caliber. Normal talk as if me and you was to meet for dinner and talk.) Since I am new that is about the extent I have really oc'ed but it seems to me to be choice imo.

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    Its a very personal decision. Those who have OC'd for a long time have their reasons, understand the situation, and have thought through the various situations. My idea here is more to let the newer folks think about some of the things they might not have thought about before. The more you think things through in advance, the better off you will be. The scenarios I referenced are simply based on MY personal view from training and personal experience (which includes confrontations with REAL active shooters, using REAL bullets). But everyone must make their own choice; but an informed choice is a better choice, whatever the result.

    As I said, from my perspective, the more people that OC, the better...
    Last edited by showmerancher; 05-27-2011 at 08:40 PM.

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    There is nothing wrong with your opinion!

    The key is, allowing everyone to have THEIR opinion free and clear of your own and never impede another to express theirs is what this country is SUPPOSED to be about.

    OCDO is not about open carry, it is about the RIGHT to open carry. You will find that a vast number of us would encourage you to consider other opinions but none would condemn you for choosing not to open carry, it is not for everyone.

    Where some confusion develops is where others tell OC'ers why they should NOT open carry and then go to try and restrict them from open carry. You brought up some points of view I have considered and tend not to agree with, especially the shoot/no shoot situation. I think folks serious enough about personal protection have indeed considered those points in making their decision. Many of us have trained for those events, yet still understand your points and we practice and drill such events.

    As long as you are going to vote for and support the right of others to openly carry, that is all anyone here will likely ever ask of you, no one says you have to OC in fact pretty much the opposite. If you do not want to OC no one should suggest you do.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman Universityís School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by repomasterstl View Post
    I am on the fence still about the open carry thing. I haven't really done much of it. I see both sides of it cc vs oc. I personally will judge each place I visit as I get there. For instance I was in walmart today (busy as all get outs) I choose cc because I was in a hurry and didn't want to have any unwanted attention from the three cops parked out front (assuming they was dealing with shoplifter or something like that). After things slowed down I did open carry in Taco Bell and got a postitive response from the state trooper that was also eating there. He basicly said it was nice to see people getting what is duly right to them, then asked about the firearm itself (hows it shoot, cost, model, why I chose it over a smaller caliber. Normal talk as if me and you was to meet for dinner and talk.) Since I am new that is about the extent I have really oc'ed but it seems to me to be choice imo.
    You'll get comfortable with OC, give it some time and get to the get togethers. I have friends I'm trying to get to subsribe to forum and get out with us and learn. Just don't mess up, there are a few things you need to learn to be safe. I learned from this group, I learned a lot. Give it time.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
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    Absolutely!

    As I stated above, this is mostly for those that are new, to get various perspectives. I've met too many people that haven't thought through the various possibilities and problems that can occur. The more people reflect on these, the less likely it is that you or I get shot accidentally! But either way OC/CC (it serves my own interest either way), I think people need to think about, and take responsibility for their own safety; that includes as much training and situational awareness as they can get. But I unconditionally defend everyone's legal right to carry a weapon in whatever manner suits their own preferences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by showmerancher View Post
    Absolutely!

    As I stated above, this is mostly for those that are new, to get various perspectives. I've met too many people that haven't thought through the various possibilities and problems that can occur.
    Unfortunately they took a poorly operated CCW class IMHO if they have not thought it through.

    A good CCW instructor will indeed discuss such topics as part of the training and discussions on the laws surrounding the option of carrying a firearm.

    I would think that at the very very least they would at least leave the student pondering their own decision. It is a HUGE responsibility and if you have to ever pull that firearm and use it, your entire life is going to change forever in so many ways it is hard to list them. Unless you make some serious coin, your going to be poor due to legal fees, you are likely to second guess yourself, others will always second guess you, it goes on and on.

    That is all part of the carry/no carry debate and always will be, those thoughts should be discussed and make the student understand the simple class they are in and to be ready, they will need more training, it is not as simple and some trainers have very good methods to simulate reality and assist shooters in gaining skills and repetitive motion muscle memory to assist when under stress.

    As far as the difference in the ccw vs oc make yourself a target, you are welcome to subscribe to it, the movies and tv do, however the studies done with real world criminals clearly defines they are more concerned coming across an armed citizen than they are a police officer. In other words, the OC'er painting a target on themselves, it just does not play out in the real world and there is nothing but the movies and tv that indicate it does at any percentage rate at all. In other words, OC'ers are attacked so rarely there are no statistics despite the horror stories by the brother-in-law cop etc.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman Universityís School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Ohh propaganda. Good to see you again.

    Quote Originally Posted by showmerancher View Post
    Hey! This should get some discussion going! I've posted a couple of items at

    http://comdinet.com/cc.php

    I don't care which way you fall on these issues, the point here is to get you thinking about them, and making your own decisions based on a different viewpoint. (HINT: Not everyone that will shy away from you in the store or on the street will do it for the reasons you think! Avoidance is our way of saying "We're glad you're here!" Your open carry absolutely makes me safer... so why will you hate me???)

    Have Fun! I'll check back on the discussion when I have the opportunity. Interesting food for thought.

    This is a very common misnomer that you will hear from the status quo CCW crowd. if I had a dolor for every time I've heard this imaginary "you will be shot 1st" propaganda spewed out. And why does no one back this oddball theory up showing all the times it has happened. Because it doesn't happen to OC citizens. The rarity of Armored car guys being killed is even so low it doesn't garner a 1%, and that guy is walking in plain view carrying a sack full of money.

    Doc

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    Unfortunately they took a poorly operated CCW class IMHO if they have not thought it through.
    THAT'S the real problem, and the point of why I addressed what I did in this forum. MANY OC people have NOT taken a CCW class, and have NOT thought these things through. That's why one sees and hears comments like "If there had been one good many with a gun (at the Gabrielle Gifford shooting), it would have turned out differently". Yes, it probably would have, but not necessarily for the better, as the referenced document explains. In discussing this with a number of OC folks, I was shocked when I was told by more than a few that they hadn't considered that someone else (another person carrying, the police, etc.) might mistake them for the shooter in a chaos situation. Apparently it wasn't as obvious as I had thought... If I bring realization to just one person that keeps them from making a critical mistake by not having thought out various scenarios, than bringing it to light was worth it.

    That's why I think its a good idea to bring some of these things up in this forum; so that those folks will at least have some more perspective. Hopefully others will bring additional advice/experience/philosophy to help those that haven't had the training for one reason or another.

    Also I see in this and other forums people lamenting the fact that other shy away from them when they open carry. They feel that folks are afraid or don't understand their right to carry. But there are actually many of us that do understand, are happy they OC, including the other reasons I outlined. They should simply be aware of that.

    As for OC deterrence, the FBI data bears that out, but there are caveats for those I refer to as "stupid/crazy" (including some young gang-bangers), and those professional criminals that plan for the contingency. Yes, the probability of an OC'er being targeted is small, perhaps very small. But having been involved in more than one active shooter situation in my life/career, I've developed somewhat of an aversion to being shot at. As such, even very small is not small enough. If the situation arises, I'd like to have the advantage of time and surprise on MY side for a change.

    But again, that's not the point. The point is that those who OC without having had some sort of training may be missing out on critical information, situational analysis, etc. that many others of us take for granted. In speaking with them, I've found this to be true more than I expected, and having recognized that, think that bringing light to such things in this forum might be beneficial for them... and potentially for us if we are ever in a situation with them. As I intimated in the document I originally referenced, I am morally opposed to being accidentally shot by someone that wasn't trained or otherwise didn't have the situational awareness required for a given situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sohighlyunlikely View Post
    This is a very common misnomer that you will hear from the status quo CCW crowd. if I had a dolor for every time I've heard this imaginary "you will be shot 1st" propaganda spewed out. And why does no one back this oddball theory up showing all the times it has happened. Because it doesn't happen to OC citizens. The rarity of Armored car guys being killed is even so low it doesn't garner a 1%, and that guy is walking in plain view carrying a sack full of money.

    Doc
    Not propaganda. Like I said, everyone makes a choice based on their own perspectives. As indicated herein, the likelihood is small that an OCer will be targeted. But some BGs will and do look for people that might be carrying, especially in C store robberies; in fact, I believe that was even part of the FBI interviews with felons, but it could have been any one of a number of studies I've read. First to avoid going in when someone/anyone else is inside, and second when inside to not be surprised by someone (especially someone that might be carrying, LE, security, etc.) and had been there for a long period (i.e. back room, bathroom, etc.). But more than that, it is common sense that if any robber stumbles on someone that is armed, that person will command their attention, whether they shoot or not. For me, that's a diversion that could, in certain circumstances, be exploited. Which is all I'm saying. I carry for personal protection, and go with the odds, no matter how small. Therefore, I like (knowledgeable/trained) people that open carry, and defend them at every turn.

    The bigger point is that I've found that some, (more than I expected) people that OC AND have not had at least CCW training, have not considered what perhaps you and I take for granted as to when to shoot, more importantly when not to shoot, how to take advantage of situations, when not to, and more.

    This forum seems to be the place to help those that might not have had the benefit of more formal training and experience in passing some that that knowledge along. To me, that makes us all safer; and shouldn't that be the common goal, regardless of our individual philosophies? But it's your forum...

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    Quote Originally Posted by showmerancher View Post
    Hey! This should get some discussion going! I've posted a couple of items at

    http://comdinet.com/cc.php

    I don't care which way you fall on these issues, the point here is to get you thinking about them, and making your own decisions based on a different viewpoint. (HINT: Not everyone that will shy away from you in the store or on the street will do it for the reasons you think! Avoidance is our way of saying "We're glad you're here!" Your open carry absolutely makes me safer... so why will you hate me???)

    Have Fun! I'll check back on the discussion when I have the opportunity. Interesting food for thought.
    Other than the "exposed vs. concealed" angle of things, I have to wonder why any of this would apply differently to the average open carrier any more than the average CCW endorsement holder. The truth of the matter is, very few who partake in either form of carry have much more than cursory training, and even fewer actually have a regular practice/training regimen that they adhere to above and beyond basic target practice.

    While it might be fair to be critical of those who fail to seek out adequate training and then develop the skills they learn through proper practice, I hardly think it's fair to just single out those who OC when the majority of folks who carry a gun for personal protection, regardless of carry mode, are guilty of the same thing.

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    Well,

    I am supposin sometimes folks are glad they do not shoot the trolls too

    Nothing within your comments what so ever indicates a difference in OC vs CCW except that one could OC without any training what so ever and the element of surprise.

    One can debate the target issue and say a clean draw on oc will draw less attention as most often a ccw draw may involve both hands painting a huge target and delaying response etc.

    While your concerns and thought are some what popular, they are not justified in many folks eyes and no, I do not particularly see any merit in bringing them up for newbies to read. Discussions repeatedly drug on might have some training value however only when both positions have merit based in facts and despite your strong feelings on the matter, there are indeed no facts available to support your position, so no, I see no value what so ever in addressing it at all.

    In your repeated attempts to state that a person carrying might or might not have helped in the senators shooting, that is called "what if blathering" and consist of nothing but 100% bull shirt. If you had been there and had a rock you might have been able to cave his skull in with a 60 mph pitch or it might have hit some one else, if you ran you might have tripped over the curb and head butted the shooter unconscious as you fell, you might have died of a heart attack, you might have soiled your pants, you might have strangled the guy in the most blind rage ever, the cops might have shot you because you had a black cell phone in your hand blather blather blather.

    Your position no more than anyone's else has merit in the what if's of the day.

    I will not be living my life based upon a bunch of what if theories, life is too short. I will prepare for the more common situations I may find myself in like a robbery, weather disaster etc but only things that have a statistical value of happening at least one time in my life and I will train for those as I see fit. I will recommend others do the same however I will stop short of requiring anyone to do the same, its none of my business.

    Remaining ignorant of the situations one might face and how to contend with those situations is not against the law, nor should it me, blind bliss is just as legal as skeptical and situational aware. Pick and be responsible for your choice and I am all good, but don't whine about the choice you made and try and force me to pay for your mistake through the government,
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman Universityís School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Quote Originally Posted by showmerancher View Post
    THAT'S the real problem, and the point of why I addressed what I did in this forum. MANY OC people have NOT taken a CCW class, and have NOT thought these things through. That's why one sees and hears comments like "If there had been one good many with a gun (at the Gabrielle Gifford shooting), it would have turned out differently". Yes, it probably would have, but not necessarily for the better, as the referenced document explains. In discussing this with a number of OC folks, I was shocked when I was told by more than a few that they hadn't considered that someone else (another person carrying, the police, etc.) might mistake them for the shooter in a chaos situation. Apparently it wasn't as obvious as I had thought... If I bring realization to just one person that keeps them from making a critical mistake by not having thought out various scenarios, than bringing it to light was worth it.

    That's why I think its a good idea to bring some of these things up in this forum; so that those folks will at least have some more perspective. Hopefully others will bring additional advice/experience/philosophy to help those that haven't had the training for one reason or another.

    Also I see in this and other forums people lamenting the fact that other shy away from them when they open carry. They feel that folks are afraid or don't understand their right to carry. But there are actually many of us that do understand, are happy they OC, including the other reasons I outlined. They should simply be aware of that.

    As for OC deterrence, the FBI data bears that out, but there are caveats for those I refer to as "stupid/crazy" (including some young gang-bangers), and those professional criminals that plan for the contingency. Yes, the probability of an OC'er being targeted is small, perhaps very small. But having been involved in more than one active shooter situation in my life/career, I've developed somewhat of an aversion to being shot at. As such, even very small is not small enough. If the situation arises, I'd like to have the advantage of time and surprise on MY side for a change.

    But again, that's not the point. The point is that those who OC without having had some sort of training may be missing out on critical information, situational analysis, etc. that many others of us take for granted. In speaking with them, I've found this to be true more than I expected, and having recognized that, think that bringing light to such things in this forum might be beneficial for them... and potentially for us if we are ever in a situation with them. As I intimated in the document I originally referenced, I am morally opposed to being accidentally shot by someone that wasn't trained or otherwise didn't have the situational awareness required for a given situation.
    Hmm, you are right. I open carry but I never took a CCW class...

    Oh wait. I have been shooting since I was a small child.

    I was also in the Army and trained on a wide variety of weapons and spent many hours learning about safety, lanes of fire, etc.

    I have also probably put more rounds downrage than the average LEO.

    But hey, I haven't taken a whole 8 hour CCW class so maybe I should not carry.

    Whatever...

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    None the less, OC is legal inMissouri except where prohibited by ding bad local laws. YES, EVERYONE who carries should have soem sort of training and education as it relates to firearms and the practical and legal application. If and when the legislature ever takes up OC as a bill these questions will arise, those of us who will be wiiling to discuss this in jefferson City will do so in a prepared and professional manner.

    We will organize, we will lobby and we will be there!

    I know we all don't agree with many points of view and never will completely, but our 2A rights have been taken away or limited and we will get them back.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
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    I agree training is key ( money providing in this economy ) for both CCW and OC people. I would love to take more classes ( I learned a lot in the army mind you ) but I just can not afford it because I don't have $100 plus to blow per class. OC and CC is a very personal choice for everyone and both should be respected. I myself do both and have caught a little flak for OCing, but I let them have their view and keep going.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterarthur View Post
    Hmm, you are right. I open carry but I never took a CCW class...

    Oh wait. I have been shooting since I was a small child.

    I was also in the Army and trained on a wide variety of weapons and spent many hours learning about safety, lanes of fire, etc.

    I have also probably put more rounds downrage than the average LEO.

    But hey, I haven't taken a whole 8 hour CCW class so maybe I should not carry.

    Whatever...
    maybe your not aware states also accept military duty and other classes/training in lou of an 8hr ccw class.

    some knowledge/training is better than nothing

  17. #17
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    Just wanted to chime in with my two cents.

    When I took my CCW class my instructor seemed to be totally against Open Carry. It was even stated if I remember correctly that once I have a permit to NOT open carry because somehow my permit could be in jeopardy.....I do not recall him going into specifics.

    For which I did not agree with but, none the less that was his outlook and each to his own. I guess. But as a person that was advocating 2A rights I found it odd for him to take that kind of stand.

    He did well I thought in the aspect of giving some basics on where and when it cannot be carried, though I am catching on the more I am on this site but, to give him credit it has been 3 yrs since I took the class and a lot can change in that time as I am finding out.

    Now it was mentioned above that some states do are willing to accept Military Training in Lou of the Class.

    Having been a 4 tour combat Veteran and a Non-Commissioned officer in the Army and like others I seen in her I also still took the class as there are things you can learn with anything if you go in with an open mind. If something were to happen you can never have too much training or practice.

    Now I am in no way saying that because someone has not taken the class they should not carry. I know personally for myself I almost opted to use the military experience instead the kicker for me was I had a friend that wanted to get his as well and made for a good class when had someone to go with.

    I do have one thing to say when recently talking with one of my friends who happens to be a Police officer. He brought up the and outlook that I thought was at least shed some light on some of the police officers thoughts of open carry with no permit and CCW with a permit. He said in many more words that there are 2 kinds of people those that have them and those that donít.


    He said that people with CCW permits about half the police he works with has roughly this opinion:

    People with a CCW Permit are people that are law abiding citizens & gun owners they have gone through the paperwork had backgrounds run ect. And they donít really worry as much about them. They like something in writing telling them this person has already been checked out and is OK and donít take it for granted that you are but they feel a little better. Evidently for some this Permit gives them some kind of a feel good or safety.

    Now the ones that donít have it they donít have any feel good for which I basically took it as you could be a good guy or you could be a bad guy.

    NOW for those other half of the officers they have some VERY mixed feeling ranging from LITERALLY they believe they are totally superior and only law enforcement should have weapons to not caring either way!

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    May I offer this to the discussion

    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-...-argument.html

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    At the moment I'n in Tuscan AZ... I'll be back tomorrow.
    There are people every where OCing.....
    There is constitutional carry here, no permit needed and OC is unbelieveable!
    We can do better in Missouri!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
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