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Thread: First LEO Contact! Refused ID successfully!

  1. #1
    Regular Member ooghost1oo's Avatar
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    First LEO Contact! Refused ID successfully!

    Had an exciting day today. I was out working with some of my employees, marketing on foot for leads for a home improvement company, and had LEO contact. Note: This does not involve OC'ing, but I acted the same as if I were to have an encounter OC'ing, and used knowledge and tactics to resist privacy invasion that I learned from THIS FORUM.

    Sometimes a kooky homeowner will call the cops on us. But this is the first time I've ever been asked to produce my ID after explaining the work we do out there. My two employees had already given the deputies (sheriffs, not police, for some reason) their ID's, and one had been arrested because of a warrant he didn't know about for missing a court date. The other was telling me by phone that they were all waiting for me, and the cops were refusing to answer his question of "am I free to go?"

    When I arrived, I greeted one of the deputies. My arrested employee was in a cruiser, and my other employee was sitting scared on the hood of his car. The LEO said they got a call about suspicious activity, and asked what we were doing there. I told him about my marketing business, and that we were gathering leads for a particular client for such-and-such type of service. He then asked me for my ID.

    I said something along the lines of, "That won't be necessary, officer. I do not consent to search. Am I free to go?"

    He acted shocked, and said, "I don't want to search you--I just want to run your ID."

    I said, "Officer, I understand you're just doing your job. But unless you've got probable cause of a crime being committed, and we're being detained, then I'd like to take my employee and both of us be free to go."

    The deputy seemed exasperated at that point, and said, "fine--go."

    I told my employee to rendezvous with me in such-and-such a location, and we left.

    Didn't happen while I was OC'ing, but because of everything I've read here, I was prepared, felt confident, and felt pretty damned awesome after that encounter.

    Carry on!

  2. #2
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Excellent. Like Bruce Lee, who gave balls of courage to 2 billion Chinese, OC-ing has given balls of lead to millions of, oh, heck, you get my drift.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ooghost1oo View Post
    Sometimes a kooky homeowner will call the cops on us.
    Crazy!

    Around here we welcome solicitors with open arms! It's not unusual to invite them in for High Tea, Supper, whatever. We just want these strangers to feel at home. In fact most houses on my block leave the front door wide open so they can just walk right in. If we are not home we leave our check books taped to the storm door so they can just help themselves. We find this saves TONS of money in the long run. Those "No Trespassing" and "No Solicitor"signs are expensive and ineffective anyway!




    Glad you altercation worked out for you though.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Not looking to stifle anyone's livelihood - some areas have ordinances requiring that door-to-door solicitors have a permit. My county is one of those that does.

    Unfortunately, some door-to-door workers are involved with securing and selling info about you for other than the claimed purpose - what electronics you have, when you are home, is there a storage shed or valuables outside, etc.

    My personal POV is that if I have not invited you, you are not welcome.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  5. #5
    Regular Member ooghost1oo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not looking to stifle anyone's livelihood - some areas have ordinances requiring that door-to-door solicitors have a permit. My county is one of those that does.

    Unfortunately, some door-to-door workers are involved with securing and selling info about you for other than the claimed purpose - what electronics you have, when you are home, is there a storage shed or valuables outside, etc.

    My personal POV is that if I have not invited you, you are not welcome.
    Lol. In defense of my noble and unappreciated profession:

    Dudes collecting info and selling info for purposes OTHER than why they say they're there, as well as noting electronics, storage sheds, and the like ... is NOT door-to-door marketing. That's called casing the joint.

    And while some incorporated cities require permits (like Parker, Co, and Castlerock, Co), there is NO SUCH THING as a 'no soliciting neighborhood', no matter how many signs those commie Covenants put up.

    Don't worry, Grapeshot. If one of my guys comes to your door, they have a requisite number of rebuttals to use, then they will cheerfully wish you a nice day and leave you alone. But then again, we're the good guys.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Back in the 60s and 70s we had block parties on Halloween, hundreds of kids swarmed the streets and houses of our subdivision, and we had to go home twice to dump out our bags and go back out.

    It was all safe, fun, joyous, no traffic problems, despite kids running everywhere, narrowish streets, everybody drove 5mph...

    It was good to see the mailman and give him water, we had a roving baker who came up with a big tray of pastries, milkmen came to the door, paperboys.

    But now, sadly, and also blessedly, we have online ordering, no need for door-to-door, we have virtual parties and if anyone comes to my door I don't know or isn't pre-invited, well let's just say we don't have a moat or a bunch of ill-tempered alligators with laserbeams on their heads, but again, you're not welcome, and we will also call the cops (this is a gated community).

    But I'm applauding your learning to be cordial and still have respect and rights accorded you.

    May we all learn the same lessons, not to be intimidated unduly by authority figures. Let's turn this into a society where you only pay the doctor if you remain well (as in China), where you have honest contractors who have word-of-mouth references, and where people pay an honest buck for an honest purchase, and everyone carries and everyone is polite and calm and patient.

    Perhaps in a 5x5 world we'd all die of boredom, IDK. Later. I'm off to tie up the girlfriend (*)

    (*) buzz her cellphone.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Whoa there guys. This is an AMAZING STORY. Just pretend he was selling girl scout cookies for his handicapped sister.

    Back on the 4A that the 2A is so dependent on (or is it the other way around.)

  8. #8
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    "Gathering leads" vs. "Casing the joing" is a fine line, IME. And I'm talking all the way up to corporate sales.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...on-a-solicitor

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1110042
    Last edited by mahkagari; 05-30-2011 at 04:51 PM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Folks!
    Something I haven't seen in this thread is the matter of private property rights.
    I live in a mobile home park that is owned by a company and therefore this is private property of the owners. They rent space to tenants, but it is their property.

    We have two access points to the park. Both are marked "No Trespassing" and "No Soliciting". And those signs are routinely ignored by soliciters of every stripe, including folks going door to door to peddle their particular religious perspective.

    When they come to my door, I ask them if they've gotten permission from management to be on the property. They will invariably say no, and I'll tell them to leave immediately or face charges that I'll press against them. Not only have they entered upon the private property of the park, they've encroached upon mine. Some will say "Yes, we got permission." I'll then ask from whom they got permission, and they won't know the manager's name. Once again, I'll bid them farewell as they vacate the property.

    This ain't all that funny. People come to your door at all hours of the day or night, and sometimes are overly agressive. For example:

    I was taking a shower one fine Saturday morning. A persistent knocking came at my front door and I eventually responded. On my front porch stood two little blue haired ladies in desperate need of pill box hats! Standing behind the open door, shampoo dripping in my eyes, obviously wet while puddles pooled on the carpet beneath me. They couldn't see much, but enough to know that I wasn't in the proper state of decorum for guests! They told me they wanted to come in and chat about the future of humanity. I told them "I am indisposed." They replied that they would only take a few minutes of my time, and really would love to chat with me. Again I told them "I am indisposed. I'd think you'd respect that fact". But nooooooooo.... they persisted. "But this is an important matter and we have information to share about the direction the world is going." I was getting exasperated. "I told you I am indisposed. What part of indisposed escapes your understanding. I am indisposed."
    Finally, they held out a couple of 'magazines'. They said "Can you please just accept and read these publications. It could change your mind." I took a deep breath! "Fine," I said as I pulled the door wide open so I could take their periodicals". If they didn't understand the meaning of the word "indisposed" they now had a very vivid notion of what I was trying to communicate as I came fully into view.

    To my surprise, as I extended my hand to receive those magazines, they vanished in an instant. In the twinkling of an eye, they were gone. I don't think their feet hit any of the steps as they fled the scene. I looked outside to see them rapidly making their retreat down the sidewalk, their high heels beating a stacatto as they scurried away as fast as their feet would carry them. I thought I could even feel a faint vaccuum resulting from their sudden departure sucking air away from the porch!

    And oh... how I wanted to yell out to them as they fled... "Wait! I was going to make espresso!"

    With that story as preamble, I've since made it part of my effort as a resident of this park to invite others to leave when they were trespassing on private property, going door to door, and without permission of the property managers or owners. Call it educating them about our rights here.

    That whole private property rights thing that we should all respect as rigorously as we defend our rights to open carry.

    No means no.... and that applies to guys caught nude at their door when confronted by solicitors of any stripe. Go away, leave me alone, and let me have privacy in my sanctum. Is that asking too much? How many times do I need to repeat myself before getting the message across?

    An univited interlude with the police at my door is more welcome to me than an unwanted, univited and unwelcome solicitor standing on my front porch!
    Which reminds me, I need one of them signs that inform them "No Trespassing."
    That, or "Don't fear the dog, the alarm system or the cops. Fear the homeowner."

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by M-Taliesin; 05-30-2011 at 05:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    We have two access points to the park. Both are marked "No Trespassing" and "No Soliciting". And those signs are routinely ignored by soliciters of every stripe, including folks going door to door to peddle their particular religious perspective.
    Exactly. There IS such a thing as a 'no soliciting neighborhood'. They are posted when the whole of the neighborhood is private property or in those commie Covenants who decide as a whole that NONE of them want solicitors setting one toe on their individual properties. Respect my private property rights and I'll respect your right to make a living.

    I'll leave aside the matter of a business owner gathering information about the neighborhood having people with outstanding warrants in his employ not being considered RAS by the LEO to investigate further as I don't have enough information to make that kind of a call.

  11. #11
    Regular Member ooghost1oo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    Exactly. There IS such a thing as a 'no soliciting neighborhood'. They are posted when the whole of the neighborhood is private property or in those commie Covenants who decide as a whole that NONE of them want solicitors setting one toe on their individual properties. Respect my private property rights and I'll respect your right to make a living.

    I'll leave aside the matter of a business owner gathering information about the neighborhood having people with outstanding warrants in his employ not being considered RAS by the LEO to investigate further as I don't have enough information to make that kind of a call.
    Man. People sure hate door-to-door folks.

    FWI, 'No Soliciting' signs hold no legal weight. Just like 'no guns' signs. If you really want to keep random people from random businesses from approaching your door, put up a 'No Trespassing' sign, WHICH MUST BE PASSED to reach the front door. That'll do the trick. Nothing else will. Otherwise, stop your 'hatin' and put a damned moat around your property.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    M-Taliesin's post reminds me of the time when I had an engraved brass plaque mounted on the wall beside the door reading - -
    "If you are offended by nudity,
    Please do not ring bell."
    I took advantage of it one or twice, but haven't seen the need out here in the backwoods.

  13. #13
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    First off, good for standing up for your rights.
    Hope the employees will watch the "don't talk to cops" videos again, until it sinks in.

    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin
    Something I haven't seen in this thread is the matter of private property rights.
    Apparently unless there's a fence around the front yard, some people think that it's not private property. In the case of a gated/fenced community, with signs posted, I think that's a very clear message NOT to bother people.

    If they didn't understand the meaning of the word "indisposed" they now had a very vivid notion of what I was trying to communicate as I came fully into view.
    I like the way you describe things.

    Quote Originally Posted by ooghost1oo
    If one of my guys comes to your door, they have a requisite number of rebuttals to use, then they will cheerfully wish you a nice day and leave you alone.
    The only rebuttal they should need is seeing a sign telling them that their presence isn't welcome. Even having the homeowner tell them once "no, go away" should be enough, if there's no sign.
    Under WI law, that sign or one "go away" is enough to prove trespass if the person remains.
    Besides, why would you go where you know people won't welcome you? See the sign, don't go there.

    Quote Originally Posted by ooghost1oo
    Man. People sure hate door-to-door folks.
    I dislike anyone interrupting the privacy & (relative) quiet of my home without invitation.
    Could be in person, could be telephone solicitors. Yes, I'm on the do not call lists, too.
    If I want information, I'll look up who to talk with & initiate the contact.
    Friends are a different matter entirely.
    Even the zany guy across the street is OK; he doesn't try to sell me things. (He reminds me of Robin Williams on drugs.)

    'No Soliciting' signs hold no legal weight. Just like 'no guns' signs.
    Depending on the municipality, "no soliciting" & "no guns" signs can have legal weight. I suggest researching local laws before you & your employees get into trouble.

    I took a bullseye target (on normal 8.5x11" paper), photoshopped "no soliciting" onto the bottom, & hung it on the door after using it on the range.
    Have had very few problems from anyone, including religious sorts, politicians, & the census.
    On the rare occasions that someone ignores the sign, they don't ignore my "go away", or the pistol in its holster.

    ...stop your 'hatin' and put a damned moat around your property.
    A sign is quite sufficient. Or at least, it should be. There's your "moat".
    People who are rude enough to ignore someone's wishes, so clearly expressed, should not be upset when the people they importune are less than polite.

  14. #14
    Lone Star Veteran Ian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    And that is proof positive that just because you have nothing to hide is no guarantee that they won't find something!
    I'm sorry but I'm not buying this. The guy missed a court date, how can he not know that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooghost1oo View Post
    Man. People sure hate door-to-door folks.

    FWI, 'No Soliciting' signs hold no legal weight. Just like 'no guns' signs. If you really want to keep random people from random businesses from approaching your door, put up a 'No Trespassing' sign, WHICH MUST BE PASSED to reach the front door. That'll do the trick. Nothing else will. Otherwise, stop your 'hatin' and put a damned moat around your property.
    I don't hate door to door folks. I generally give them the time of day and will at least pay lip sevice to their spiel in case there's a good deal hidden in there. DW's a different story. Interrupt her day of trying to run a house, work from home, homeschool and keep the animals off of you, and if she answers the door, you might be lucky for her to not have a hand on a weapon.

    I don't need a "damned moat". It's called basic civility. You expect your OC "rights" to be respected, but won't respect the rights of "kooky homeOWNers". This is not a semipublic space of a convenience store we're talking about. We're talking about my HOME. If I put up a "No Solicitors" sign up, it doesn't matter if it's legally enforceable. Walking past it and getting in my face, disturbing my domicile is just plain RUDE. And you wonder why people bring the hatin'? I don't take kindly to rude people coming onto my property uninvited with criminal backgrounds and employing people with outstanding warrants.

    Honest solicitors trying to make a living are worlds apart from borderline scammers who see the "kooky homeowners" as adversaries interfering with them being able to literally walk all over others' private property rights. The latter reek from a mile away. Some call in "suspicous activity" to the LEOs. Others....how's the song go? This house is protected by the good Lord and a gun, you'll meet 'em both if you show up unwelcome? They don't seem to rely on "moats".
    Last edited by mahkagari; 05-31-2011 at 11:56 AM.

  16. #16
    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    I assure you it can happen. My firm's customers include County, State, and Federal Courts. Part of what we sell is document management and process improvement. They need it, badly. They are often hamstrung by bureaucratic inefficiency, redundancies, processes dependent on a single point of failure (if Sue is out then no one processes notices), etc.

    Part of the process to be engineered is how to handle all of the court date notifications that come back as undeliverable. Every one of them means that some defendant was not officially notified.

    Oops - posted too slow. This was in response to Ian's comment of:
    I'm sorry but I'm not buying this. The guy missed a court date, how can he not know that?

    And if you want to be absolutely terrified someday, forget about the paperwork snafus and get a behind the scenes tour of a County court.
    Last edited by Jim675; 05-31-2011 at 01:04 AM.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ooghost1oo View Post
    Man. People sure hate door-to-door folks.
    I just take umbrage with your "kooky homeowner" comment. I imagine having people call is just one of the "perks" of your job. Part of life? Also just because I'm home doesn't mean I'm not busy or not working for a living.

    Quote Originally Posted by ooghost1oo
    FWI, 'No Soliciting' signs hold no legal weight.
    That's why I string garlic.

    Quote Originally Posted by ooghost1oo
    Just like 'no guns' signs.
    uhmmmm. Say what? No gun signs work where I am. On law abiding citizens that is. Works BETTER than garlic.

    If you really want to keep random people from random businesses from approaching your door, put up a 'No Trespassing' sign, WHICH MUST BE PASSED to reach the front door. That'll do the trick. Nothing else will. Otherwise, stop your 'hatin' and put a damned moat around your property.
    The local ordnance I fall under says I have to have two no trespass signs posted conspicuously. One in front and one in back of the property. It doesn't say where or how or on what. The sign and letters need to meet certain dimensions. That's it.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 05-31-2011 at 01:03 AM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  18. #18
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    The local ordnance I fall under says I have to have two no trespass signs posted conspicuously. One in front and one in back of the property. It doesn't say where or how or on what. The sign and letters need to meet certain dimensions. That's it.
    Howdy Again!
    I like how you express yourself HH! Well done there!

    As for whether "No Trespassing" and "No Soliciting" signs are effective in our mobile home park, I can assure you they are. I've had the police escort people off the property, which is private. That means the entire park. It isn't a public park, but a privately owned property. I'm going back to the notion that private property rights should be respected. Unfortunately, there are some who ignore those signs. And those who believe (erroneously) they don't need to heed them are welcome to discuss it with the police who come to remove them. The signs are clearly visible at both entrances to the park.

    There really isn't any need for solicitors to invade my privacy. I won't waste my time or money with any solicitor who comes to my door. EVER.

    I do not hate solicitors. I just don't like how they hate my rights of privacy. I don't like having my peace invaded by somebody I don't know from adam come a'pandering to my door. I don't hate pan-handlers either, but don't want them coming to my home. I really don't much like them approaching me on the street either, but when in public, you just gotta deal with the situation at hand.

    What bothers me is when a property is posted, clearly at both entrances to our park, the arrogance of anyone who won't respect property rights. Telling me that those signs have no effect on solicitors only serves to illustrate the absolute arrogance of those who violate the privacy of others with the expectation of impunity.

    Private property is not anybody's to abuse at their whim. It's trespassing. Disrespectful, haughty and abusive of the rights of others. I would wager not many a solicitor has heard "Thank God you've come!" I'm only thankful when they're escorted off the property or cited for trespass.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by M-Taliesin; 05-31-2011 at 05:31 AM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Thank you Sir. I really like your post as well. Very funny!

    Happy Tuesday.



    {Now to start on that moat!}

    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    So from skimming through this thread is it safe to say OP is living walking SPAM mail?
    Last edited by Schlitz; 05-31-2011 at 12:14 PM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    I'm sorry but I'm not buying this. The guy missed a court date, how can he not know that?
    This actually happened to me once.
    Someone had 'been escared' simply by my presence somewhere. They called the local boys in blue by which time I had fled the scene (not knowing that I had frightened someone or that the constabulary were on their way). A complaint was filed against me but never served. I was stopped many months later and several counties away and was informed about the warrent (not extraditable from there). The only way to clear it up was for me turn myself in and spend the night in jail.

    No crime committed. All charges dismissed. Damn what a pain in the ass. Still, I guess the point is... It can happen.

  22. #22
    Regular Member EricDailey X-NRA's Avatar
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    Please Read OP Title

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not looking to stifle anyone's livelihood - some areas have ordinances requiring that door-to-door solicitors have a permit. My county is one of those that does.

    Unfortunately, some door-to-door workers are involved with securing and selling info about you for other than the claimed purpose - what electronics you have, when you are home, is there a storage shed or valuables outside, etc.

    My personal POV is that if I have not invited you, you are not welcome.
    This: "First LEO Contact! Refused ID successfully!"

    So it looks like you drove this thread right into the ditch. Maybe you could try again and express yourself on point. It seems like a worthy account of and important event. It's a good narrative and something that folks can use. If someone can contend with Deputies exceeding their authority like this maybe it would help others while OPEN CARRYING. Or I could be mistaken.
    Last edited by EricDailey X-NRA; 06-01-2011 at 02:22 AM. Reason: Add a line space
    Get a DVR, a Digital Voice Recorder, carry it 24/7. It's cheap, easy and makes a good witness in Court.

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  23. #23
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    Based upon the fact that the OP mentioned his activity of going door-to-door as an integral part of his story (and the likely reason that the cops were called, while adding a dig for those who don't like such solicitors), combined with the fact that other posters had reacted to that part of his post, Grape's post is quite on topic (and informative).

    Your post, on the other hand, as well as mine, is off-topic.

    I love irony, but will move on anyway.

  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Grapeshot
    Not looking to stifle anyone's livelihood - some areas have ordinances requiring that door-to-door solicitors have a permit. My county is one of those that does.

    Unfortunately, some door-to-door workers are involved with securing and selling info about you for other than the claimed purpose - what electronics you have, when you are home, is there a storage shed or valuables outside, etc.

    My personal POV is that if I have not invited you, you are not welcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by EricDailey X-NRA View Post
    This: "First LEO Contact! Refused ID successfully!"

    So it looks like you drove this thread right into the ditch. Maybe you could try again and express yourself on point. It seems like a worthy account of and important event. It's a good narrative and something that folks can use. If someone can contend with Deputies exceeding their authority like this maybe it would help others while OPEN CARRYING. Or I could be mistaken.
    Giving one's opinion/reaction to salient points referring to property rights and security is in no way improper. I do not know that the deputy exceeded his authority as I only have seen one side and as such is basically allegorical - an interesting story, but I did have some personal and legal points that I felt were worth mentioning.

    It could be that a less challenging delivery would be better received and more in keeping with the rules. This thread was located in the Social Lounge because it is not specific to OC.

    Anything else that I might clarify?
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  25. #25
    Regular Member EricDailey X-NRA's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    Nope

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Giving one's opinion/reaction to salient points referring to property rights and security is in no way improper. I do not know that the deputy exceeded his authority as I only have seen one side and as such is basically allegorical - an interesting story, but I did have some personal and legal points that I felt were worth mentioning.

    It could be that a less challenging delivery would be better received and more in keeping with the rules. This thread was located in the Social Lounge because it is not specific to OC.

    Anything else that I might clarify?
    Your post (#5) is still very clear to me. Thanks for asking.
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