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Thread: OCed Burlington Chocolate Fest, LEOs

  1. #1
    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    OCed Burlington Chocolate Fest, LEOs

    OCed at Burlington Chocolate Fest today. The Lady and I were on the midway; with the other fest goers,when we saw two city police cars working their way toward us through the crowd. The cars stopped behind us as we continued down the midway. I turned to the sound of. sir..siiirrr, and was approached by two LEOs. With one in front of me, and the other behind, the elder of the two started to talk. "You haven't done anything wrong, but, why the gun"? I informed him that it was a constitutionally correct thing to do. He agreed; then asked, "do you feel threatened"? 'No" I said, "It is your right to talk to me, just as it is my right to carry". "I served in the military for all rights, not just mine". After declining the younger LEOs request to return my handgun to the car, I was thanked by the elder one, wished well, and we were on our way. Good LEOs, good time. Look for posting next year, NO GUNS!
    Last edited by wild boar; 05-29-2011 at 10:32 PM.
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Well done.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    And they did not insist to see your ID to confirm you are not a convicted-felon?

  4. #4
    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    And they did not insist to see your ID to confirm you are not a convicted-felon?
    Brokensproket: I choose to make these encounters as pleasant as I can. I know he had no right to see my I.D.,but, gave it to him anyway. I feel, as I stated, that it was his right to speech, and as nice as he was I wasn't going to be disrespectful to him in front of the young LEO. Could be the young LEO learned something. I don't want to a part of the problem; rather, a part of the cure. We received good press today, good on us.
    Last edited by wild boar; 05-29-2011 at 02:45 PM.
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

  5. #5
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    Great post. I guess I would have no problem with an officer talking to me like they did, keep it civil. They must be keeping up on what is currently happening in the state.

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    Regular Member gunguy2009's Avatar
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    Very Good.

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    Regular Member hardballer's Avatar
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    We pick our battles. A win is a win. Wild Boar did a great job and I thank him and Brokensprocket for representing we Open Carriers in the honorable and respectful manner in which they did. Wild Boar at the Fest and Brokensprocket in Alma. I am proud to be in the company of such as these...
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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wild boar View Post
    Brokensproket: I choose to make these encounters as pleasant as I can. I know he had no right to see my I.D.,but, gave it to him anyway. I feel, as I stated, that it was his right to speech, and as nice as he was I wasn't going to be disrespectful to him in front of the young LEO. Could be the young LEO learned something. I don't want to a part of the problem; rather, a part of the cure. We received good press today, good on us.
    Here is where I am torn. I actually want LEO to have the ability to check anhyone carrying to see if they are a convicted felon. BUT, if they insist they have the legal right to demand ID when they do not, we are going to have a proiblem. IF the ask me if they can see my ID to make sure I am not a felon and indicate that I am not required to , I will comply.

  9. #9
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wild boar View Post
    OCed at Burlington Chocolate Fest today. The Lady and I were on the midway; with the other fest goers,when we saw two town police cars working their way toward us through the crowd. The cars stopped behind us as we continued down the midway. I turned to the sound of. sir..siiirrr, and was approached by two LEOs. With one in front of me, and the other behind, the elder of the two started to talk. "You haven't done anything wrong, but, why the gun"? I informed him that it was a constitutionally correct thing to do. He agreed; then asked, "do you feel threatened"? 'No" I said, "It is your right to talk to me, just as it is my right to carry". "I served in the military for all rights, not just mine". After declining the younger LEOs request to return my handgun to the car, I was thanked by the elder one, wished well, and we were on our way. Good LEOs, good time. Look for posting next year, NO GUNS!
    Just a point of clarification. Town of Burlington or City of Burlington? If town, what were they doing in the city?

  10. #10
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    totality of circumstances equals zero.

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Just a point of clarification. Town of Burlington or City of Burlington? If town, what were they doing in the city?
    Burlington is such a Metropolis they have 2 PD's. That always amazed me and its been like that forever. Waste of money.
    Last edited by oak1971; 05-29-2011 at 08:46 PM.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Just a point of clarification. Town of Burlington or City of Burlington? If town, what were they doing in the city?
    It was the city police. Lead LEO was a good guy, no problem.
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

  13. #13
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    Burlington is such a Metropolis they have 2 PD's. That always amazed me and its been like that forever...
    Burlington needs 2 PDs just to keep track of all the liars....
    Dave
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    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Very cool and well done. More education complete at no cost.
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  15. #15
    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    Public, and Police perception

    "Here is where I am torn. I actually want LEO to have the ability to check anyone carrying to see if they are a convicted felon. BUT, if they insist they have the legal right to demand ID when they do not, we are going to have a problem. IF the ask me if they can see my ID to make sure I am not a felon and indicate that I am not required to , I will comply."

    Well said Brokensprocket!


    As claimed, I'm a responsible, legal gun owner, and, as an OCer I have the chance at self protection against the illegals. Without a problem, I'll give the leos peace of mind by handing over I.D. If we would all voluntarily be checked it would not become an issue.
    Last edited by wild boar; 05-30-2011 at 11:23 AM.
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

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    Regular Member NavyMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wild boar View Post

    As claimed, I'm a responsible, legal gun owner, and, as an OCer I have the chance at self protection against the illegals. Without a problem, I'll give the leos peace of mind by handing over I.D. If we would all voluntarily be checked it would not become an issue.
    Will you also voluntarily let them search your car and home, to give the LEOs peace of mind?
    cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wild boar View Post
    As claimed, I'm a responsible, legal gun owner, ... If we would all voluntarily be checked it would not become an issue.
    I'm a responsible firearms owner. I take issue with that statement.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    Problem is that slippery slope to the totalitarian Police state. Why should anyone be able to walk up to you and make demands that you do something? Freedom is choice!
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  19. #19
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Yep.

    In the NAZI state I escaped from every spring and fall for almost 20 years I was pulled over simply for riding. They "just wanted to check my insurance". They claimed it was legal because they were never "just profiling motorcycles". Thank you "Supreme" Court. Then they started check points.

    I fled.

    I will not voluntarily submit to any check up here. I have no where else to flee. This doesn't mean I won't be civil though.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 05-30-2011 at 12:14 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  20. #20
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wild boar View Post
    If we would all voluntarily be checked it would not become an issue.
    I understand what you are meaning, however, let's just run a few scenarios. Let's say I am out shopping and plan on stopping at 5 stores in 5 LEO jurisdictions. 1st LEO stops me and it's not a big deal, just 5 minutes, he's nice enough and I'm on my way. I finish my shopping and got to the next store. Same thing, and the next, same thing.

    By the end of the day I've been stopped 5 times, run my ID 5 times, wasted 25 minutes and I'm a little irritated. And, while I have no proof of this, I would bet there is some database somewhere that keeps track of who and when my ID was checked.

    Let's also assume 'shall issue' passes (yuck!). I am now concealing and wear my WCI -shirt. Do you the support the LEO stopping and asking for my permit because he assumes I am carrying?

    Let's get back to the present. I plan on going to Chocolate Fest today and OC. If I run into the same LEO's and ask if I am being detained, they might assume I have something to hide since the last guy they asked gave it up so easily. Still no RAS but you could make it harder on everyone else.

    Please, I support your right to do as you wish but I would ask that you give it just a tiny bit more thought about the long term ramifications.

  21. #21
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I understand what you are meaning, however, let's just run a few scenarios. Let's say I am out shopping and plan on stopping at 5 stores in 5 LEO jurisdictions. 1st LEO stops me and it's not a big deal, just 5 minutes, he's nice enough and I'm on my way. I finish my shopping and got to the next store. Same thing, and the next, same thing.

    By the end of the day I've been stopped 5 times, run my ID 5 times, wasted 25 minutes and I'm a little irritated. And, while I have no proof of this, I would bet there is some database somewhere that keeps track of who and when my ID was checked.

    Let's also assume 'shall issue' passes (yuck!). I am now concealing and wear my WCI -shirt. Do you the support the LEO stopping and asking for my permit because he assumes I am carrying?

    Let's get back to the present. I plan on going to Chocolate Fest today and OC. If I run into the same LEO's and ask if I am being detained, they might assume I have something to hide since the last guy they asked gave it up so easily. Still no RAS but you could make it harder on everyone else.

    Please, I support your right to do as you wish but I would ask that you give it just a tiny bit more thought about the long term ramifications.
    Your hypothetical is quite a strecth of the imagination. Have your ever been asked for ID more than once a day? A week? A month? A year?

    Here is the long term ramifications that I have thought quite abit about, and I have expressed them on this forum. The more common the Open Carrry becomes and we refuse ID and take it to court an win, the more LEO will back off for fear of being sued, the more confident convicted felons will be that they will not be asked for ID, the more convicted felons will Open Carry. Although thats a hypothetical, to me it's logaical.

    I would love it if LEO's would ask for ID, making is clear that they have no legal rigth to demand ID, making it consensual and every lawabiding citizen would comply.

    If they demand ID without RAS, we need to hold the line and send a message to LEO that they cannot demand, that they have to ask.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 05-30-2011 at 01:21 PM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Your hypothetical is quite a strecth of the imagination. Have your ever been asked for ID more than once a day? A week? A month? A year?

    Here is the long term ramifications that I have thought quite abit about, and I have expressed them on this forum. The more common the Open Carrry becomes and we refuse ID and take it to court an win, the more LEO will back off for fear of being sued, the more confident convicted felons will be that they will not be asked for ID, the more convicted felons will Open Carry. Although thats a hypothetical, to me it's logaical.

    I would love it if LEO's would ask for ID, making is clear that they have no legal rigth to demand ID, making it consensual and every lawabiding citizen would comply.

    If they demand ID without RAS, we need to hold the line and send a message to LEO that they cannot demand, that they have to ask.
    But that is the price of freedom. Who was it that said "It is better that 100 guilty men go free then 1 innocent man be jailed" or something to that effect.

    As to your question, I have been asked for ID once, said no thanks, then it was demanded under threat of arrest. I complied then.

    My point is that just because there are bad guys out there, I shouldn't have to suffer. I will go as far as to say that if a felon oc's, and does nothing else, the police shouldn't be able to demand ID either. Obviously, if the LEO has personal knowledge of a prohibited person and sees that person OC'ing, he then has RAS which will lead to PC which will lead to arrest and hopefully conviction.

    I would love it if LEO's did to me what they did today. NOTHING! I was at the Elkhorn Memorial Day parade, standing on the street as David Graves, Sheriff of Walworth County, the Chief of Police of Elkhorn and then a few dozen veterans marched by. I then stood in the park with 3 or 4 Elkhorn LEO's milling around and other than a nod of the head by the Sheriff, nothing occurred. I would expect being confronted if I did something illegal but otherwise, leave me alone!

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    How about handing your ID, or just having your license plate checked while you eat in a restaurant, only to be harassed in there and then 10 hours later at your home, late at night by the local cops? Let's just say, that is a real fun experience...
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyMike View Post
    Will you also voluntarily let them search your car and home, to give the LEOs peace of mind?
    Absolutely Not!

    To comply with a consensual request for ID for a felon check, is not for their peace of mind, it's for mine. I want convicted felons to be afraid to Open Carry. I want it to be too risky for them.

    The only time that I have ever been asked for an ID is when the LEO had to fill out and incident report about a man harrasing Open Carriers. He has quite friendly had made it clear he knew that my friend and I had done nothing wrong. Why would I reufse to ID myself when I want someone else to be charged with harrasment or disorderly conduct?

    I have open carried in the presence of Capital Police, Madison Police, and many LEOs from several different agencies in west central Wisconsin and I have never been asked but that once in Buffalo County.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 05-30-2011 at 01:45 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    Brokensprocket, thanks man.

    Why is it that I am being accused of capitulating? I never said to acquiesce. Some of you OCers; and you know who you are, have what if-ed everyones constitutional rights down the toilet but your own. When a person can't deny you entry to their private property without the threat of boycott, something stinks. If I choose to be vindicated when it comes to the second amendment, I will. Further, I will not trample on others rights for the sake of my own. When the hardened view of your rights intrude on mine, that's where it stops. I'm nobody's piss ant, and the blood on the Constitution was split for all people, and all the rights with in. I'll deal with the facts, and by remaining vigilant, I'll take on reality as it presents it self. WHAT IF ON. A Friend In FREEDOM, Dennis Hamm
    Last edited by wild boar; 05-31-2011 at 01:30 PM.
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

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