Results 1 to 21 of 21

Thread: Must Accept Cooper's Rules to Get CC Permit?

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Milwaukee, WI ,
    Posts
    5

    Must Accept Cooper's Rules to Get CC Permit?

    If there is a permit system:
    Must I accept Jeff Cooper's gun safety rules to obtain a permit, or is just going to the class enough?

    1. All guns are always loaded.
    It would be hard to comply with our current carry laws if I couldn't "convince" myself that I'm transporting an unloaded and encased gun.

    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
    And here I thought my dry-firing practice was helping me . . . I'll have to stop, I guess.

    3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.
    I'll probably start an off topic war with this, but here goes. Suppose someone believes that in a threatening situation he/she can't afford to waste time, and would have his/her trigger finger in the guard of the revolver.

    4. Identify your target, and what is behind it.
    Sounds nice, doesn't it. In reality, if it's dark and someone is shooting at me and hits me in the shoulder, I'll probably shoot back in panic of my life. Even if it's grandma, but don't know it.

    The rules are OK for the most part and I understand the ideas behind them, but is absolute compliance to the religion necessary? It's not like traffic rules: always stop at a stop sign. Must I not answer truthfully when asked a question by the instructor, or taking a written test?

    Must I just take a class or pass the class? When will I be qualified to carry concealed? What makes the instructor qualified? Is the classes purpose to inform about good practices, laws, gun functionality? I'm always amused/concerned when proponents of permits site the need for training without any idea of what the training is.

    Treat a gun with respect to its deadly potential. Use avoidance tactics whenever possible, try not to overreact to situations. The police-state of Wisconsin will always throw the law at you treating you as a criminal, consider yourself lucky otherwise. Here's your permit, that will be $100. Took about a minute, (even including the money collection).

    If you want to be more proficient read more, train more, get a coach or more instruction . . . works for golf too. Come to think of it, I'm not really qualified to defend my life with my bare hands ... jujitsu classes here I come.

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,567
    Quote Originally Posted by bmtpbm View Post

    3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.
    I'll probably start an off topic war with this, but here goes. Suppose someone believes that in a threatening situation he/she can't afford to waste time, and would have his/her trigger finger in the guard of the revolver.
    What's so hard about keeping your finger off the trigger till you're aiming at your target? How much time is wasted from moving your finger from not on the trigger to on the trigger? It shouldn't take longer than half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a second to just place your finger on the trigger... I suppose you can play WHAT IF games all day if you really wanted to, but I believe as it is written that is a pretty good rule.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,839
    Hi Doug...

    I will play... Nothing wrong with any of Coopers' Rules. I am betting that you do not dry fire while pointing at your children. The only time you should be drawing in a defense situation is if there is an articulable immanent threat to your life and you can see the threat. Your first reaction to any threat is to evade unless your ultimate goal is to become a bullet sponge. If you can not keep your booger picker off of the trigger until your sights are on the target, you need more practice. You own everything which comes out of the barrel once you squeeze the trigger and where it impacts whether it is beyond your target or in front of it. If you can not cope with this simple fact, you may want to arm yourself with a sharp stick instead of a firearm. That is what CCW training is about. It will not make you a top IDPA shooter but you should be familiar with the tool you intend to use. Most of the hours are spent educating you on the laws and the consequences should you draw your weapon. The emotional consequences should be part of the education. Most firearms rules are general guidelines which if followed will prevent a ND from causing death or serious harm. Rules of engagement are something different all together.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 05-29-2011 at 08:53 PM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,937
    The plot thickens....
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  5. #5
    McX
    Guest
    Hi Doug...



    i am Doug. we could use the guy around here, that's for damn sure.

  6. #6
    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    wisconsin
    Posts
    445

    The only time you should be drawing...

    "The only time you should be drawing in a defense situation is if there is an articulable immanent threat to your life and you can see the threat. Your first reaction to any threat is to evade unless your ultimate goal is to become a bullet sponge."


    The capabilities of most panicked shooters are low. If evasion;as you say" is the first act, understand you have as good a chance of running into a round as being intentionally hit. I would get small, and return fire.
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,839
    Quote Originally Posted by wild boar View Post
    The capabilities of most panicked shooters are low. If evasion;as you say" is the first act, understand you have as good a chance of running into a round as being intentionally hit. I would get small, and return fire.
    If one is so panicky (if their capabilities are so meager) that they are simply going to spray and pray, perhaps they should rethink carrying at all. If you are not moving, you are a bullet sponge in waiting. The other shooter will aim small and hit small. It simply is irrelevant if you instantly incapacitate the other shooter after you have already sustained a fatal wound.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 05-30-2011 at 12:27 AM.

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    4,348
    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    Hi Doug...



    i am Doug. we could use the guy around here, that's for damn sure.
    I must disagree as we have enough self proclaimed know it all's already & Dougy was the Troll Master Elite of Know it all's. Seems like we have been doing just fine with out Dougys constant aggravations & look the movement did not fall apart.

    If that poster is Doug, it will not be long before he is found out & banned again, it's just in his nature...
    Last edited by GLOCK21GB; 05-30-2011 at 01:05 AM.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

  9. #9
    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Arbor Vitae
    Posts
    559
    ok, I just can't keep my mouth shut on this one.

    First off I have to agree with the safety rules, and what usually seperates a good instructor from the average gun toater is experience and the ability to relay that experience effectively. Anyone can run you through what the book says. Unfortuantely, most of the instructors that are out there now a days spend so much time reading and so little time practicing. Then they charge a great deal of money based on what they used to be able to do. And they never mention that marksmanship, and especially combat (or self defense) marksmanship is a perishable skill. That is why I encourage people to invest in snap caps, or high end airsoft guns with fit and function just like the real one they carry.

    The three most important words in self defense are "Practice, Practice, Practice"

    Additionally, all self defense laws say something about what a "Reasonable Person" would do. And since you may have to be judged by reasonable people, you don't want there to be any questions about why you used the force you used. So it is very important to follow an "Escalation of Force" scale when it comes to self defense.

    The toughest thing to do is figure out what is going to happen if you ever have to defend yourself. You can "What if" and "I Would" and "This is how it is" all you want. When it comes to self defense, things like rapid fire and even the "Double Tap" don't really work. Because then your concern has to shift from your attacker to the 2 year old sitting across the parking lot that you didn't see that will be struck by your anxious follow up shots. Then suddenly you have saved your life, but taken another innocent life that had no chance of self defense.

    So in conclusion, should you adhere to the safety rules like they were written in the Bible, of course you should. Because there is always something that you will not see or will not take into account. Do you need to find extra instruction, not if you were taught rite in the first place. Do you need to practice, yes you do and as much as possible.

    P.S. Interceptor, I agree that if someone is going to spray and pray they should reconsider carrying at all, but I disagree that sitting still makes you a bullet sponge.
    I am Calico Jack,,,, And I approve this message!
    (Paid for by the blood of patriots, and Calico Jack Defense)
    Calico Jack Defense

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Milwaukee, WI ,
    Posts
    5

    So carrying is not trivial ....

    Soooooooo . . . do I have to agree with the instructor or the state mandated training to get a permit? If no, then what's the value? So carrying is not trivial, an instructor must explain the rules.

    "The only time you should be drawing in a defense..."
    I do not have my gun in the holster when sleeping in my home. If I hear a bump in the night, I will grab my gun (with the finger to the side actually) and even have the gun pointed down with a flashlight in the other hand.

    "I must disagree as we have enough self proclaimed know it all's already"
    Do I have to point out the irony in trying to discredit someone as not knowing-it-all with the implied theme being that you do know-it-all . . . that's how you know that I don't know-it-all correct? (You may want to re-read that a few times.) I have experts too: CR Williams, Gabe Suarez, Bill Jordan, Dr. Martin Fackler. And yes, they know more than me.

    "So in conclusion, should you adhere to the safety rules like they were written in the Bible, of course you should."
    I went into Cabela's the other day and saw a crazy man pointing a gun at the wall. I yelled "everyone down", according to rule #1 a man over there is pointing a loaded gun in the store. (I did not verify the gun was empty.) I was embarrassed because actually the employee behind the counter first checks the gun, then hands it to a potential customer to check it out for potential purchase. A child looked at his dad and asked, when are other times that rule #1 doesn't apply, dad? That's the problem: I know the rule not to be true at times, when do I apply it? And yes, I would leave the area if that same man started pointing the gun around at people at the store.

    "If someone is going to spray and pray they should reconsider carrying at all."
    Stress does weird things to the mind. Here's our finest at work: http://www.officer.com/video/1026188...olice-shootout

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Somewhere, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,029
    Nothing magical about Cooper's rules. They are nearly idenical to those that were drilled into our heads repeatedly while we took Hunter Cerificate courses. Anyone born after 1973 that has ever purchased a hunting license, and many of us older hunters, have taking that mandatory training and pledged to follow the cited rules. So any hunter under the age of 39 has already had mandatory State training on the safe use and carry of firearms. That age bracket makes up about 75% of the hunter population est. 750,000. What's the problem? Other than bmtpm trying to discredit the rules and stir the pot of controversy.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    wisconsin
    Posts
    31
    (Edited out attempted replies and now will simply say as others have said, "don't feed the Troll" .)
    Last edited by treebound; 06-01-2011 at 01:33 PM. Reason: Deleted honest comments due to the OP apparently acting as a Troll

  13. #13
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
    Posts
    1,068
    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    And they never mention that marksmanship, and especially combat (or self defense) marksmanship is a perishable skill. That is why I encourage people to invest in snap caps, or high end airsoft guns with fit and function just like the real one they carry.

    The three most important words in self defense are "Practice, Practice, Practice"

    So in conclusion, should you adhere to the safety rules like they were written in the Bible, of course you should.
    This is good and sound advice, as absolutely, marksmanship and particularly combat marksmanship skills do atrophy without practice. Not all instructors are created equal. Seek the referrals of others. A good instructor will not mind giving references. A given instructor cannot teach what he/she does not know.

    And, good instructors subject themselves to the critique of others who are even more experienced so that they do not develop bad habits.

    The bottom line for the responsible citizen who carries for self defense is that such a citizen owes it to him/her -self to seek out and take training from reputable and accredited instructors and then take what is learned and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, and PRACTICE. Did I mention to practice?
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

  14. #14
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Cassville Area -Twelve Miles From Anything, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,565

    Cool Not only rules, but just plain common sense

    .
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,839
    Quote Originally Posted by bmtpbm View Post
    Soooooooo . . . do I have to agree with the instructor or the state mandated training to get a permit? If no, then what's the value? So carrying is not trivial, an instructor must explain the rules.
    What is the actual point you are trying to make? Are you trying to discredit basic firearms training because things happen differently in practical application?
    Mandated training teaches to the lowest level. It is intended for the person who knows very little or nothing. Those who mandate the training have expressed great anxiety over those who have never fired a handgun in their life walking into a gun shop, purchasing a handgun and then carrying it with zero training or experience. This mythical individual is for whom the "safety" training is intendid for. If they follow the basic rules (guidelines), they will have a better chance of not having a ND and injuring themselves or another. For those who carry as a matter of fact and actually spend time at the range and perhaps get additional training the rules become a matter of perspective to begin from and the reality of every possible scenerio creates exceptions to the rules.

  16. #16
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,937
    He's just stirring the pot...as usual. Nothing to see here, these aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Milwaukee, WI ,
    Posts
    5

    Bad group-think leads to bad-majorities, bad-laws, and puts the individual at risk.

    "What is the actual point you are trying to make?"
    If training and permits are mandatory, must I "pledge elegance" to the government's instructor required training . . . the Cooper 4 rules. If not, what's the purpose of mandatory training? If a public representative wants training, I want to know what exactly the training will be. What are my carry rights if I do not pledge?

    "Are you trying to discredit basic firearms training because things happen differently in practical application?"
    The Cooper rules, by themselves, are misleading. Yet people will post big signs and claim they are common sense and require absolute elegance, which I feel is dangerous group-think. This leads to the public masses thus eventually government laws and lawyers citing them as basic violations.

  18. #18
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Cassville Area -Twelve Miles From Anything, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,565

    Cool Doesn't pass the "Doug Test"

    Quote Originally Posted by bmtpbm View Post
    "What is the actual point you are trying to make?"
    If training and permits are mandatory, must I "pledge elegance" to the government's instructor required training . . . ....
    The Cooper rules, by themselves, are misleading. Yet people will post big signs and claim they are common sense and require absolute elegance, which I feel is dangerous group-think....
    Well, at least I know you aren't Doug; he knows the difference between "elegance" and "allegiance". Here's another BIG sign for you:
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,839
    Quote Originally Posted by bmtpbm View Post
    "What is the actual point you are trying to make?"
    If training and permits are mandatory, must I "pledge elegance" to the government's instructor required training . . . the Cooper 4 rules. If not, what's the purpose of mandatory training? If a public representative wants training, I want to know what exactly the training will be. What are my carry rights if I do not pledge?

    "Are you trying to discredit basic firearms training because things happen differently in practical application?"
    The Cooper rules, by themselves, are misleading. Yet people will post big signs and claim they are common sense and require absolute elegance, which I feel is dangerous group-think. This leads to the public masses thus eventually government laws and lawyers citing them as basic violations.
    Both of your premises are false. There is no pledge which you must sign nor must you otherwise endorse the content or context of any mandatory training. You may choose as a consenting adult to not take the training and not receive your permission slip from the State to carry concealed or you may attend the training and receive your certificate of completion. It is as simple as that.
    Some day you will be afforded the opportunity to discuss the rules with Mr Cooper. Until that time, you will have to choose a different forum than the OCDO message board to debate them if you wish for the masses to adopt a different set of rules. Debating them here will accomplish nothing for you.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Wausau Area
    Posts
    527
    Quote Originally Posted by bmtpbm View Post
    The Cooper rules, by themselves, are misleading. Yet people will post big signs and claim they are common sense and require absolute elegance, which I feel is dangerous group-think. This leads to the public masses thus eventually government laws and lawyers citing them as basic violations.
    The rules are boiled down to their most basic premise for ease of memory and practice. They're meant to induce good safe habits.

    As with anything boiled down to the most simplistic/general state, there are bound to be exceptions. Example: "All guns are always loaded." No, they're not. We all know this. But it's obvious to me that the intent of the quoted statement is not that all guns are literally always loaded. In my opinion the statement is meant evoke a bit of diligence on the part of the firearm handler. That's it.

  21. #21
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845
    I detect over tightened tinfoil on the head of the OP...
    Last edited by autosurgeon; 06-02-2011 at 03:06 PM.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •