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Concealed carry at Safeco Field - MOVED TO WASHINGTON FORUM

Bill Starks

State Researcher
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
4,304
Location
Nortonville, KY, USA
Simply said here folks is that the stadiums are publicly owned. However they use a third party to run the stadium and that party makes the rules. So, you are not breaking any established laws by carrying but if found they will ask you to leave. Should you refuse you will be trespassed.

As has been said conceal and conceal well.


The Tacoma Dome & Cheney Stadium in Tacoma are both city owned and city run thus cannot ask you to leave the facility.
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
Preemption in WA. covers all rules, laws and regulations on the possession of firearms.

Really? You obviously have't read the RCW in a while. It preempts laws and ordinances, not administrative rules. Furthermore, given that these sorts of municipal corporations do not have the authority to enact laws or ordinances, the preemption RCW is even less relevant.

Then we have the complicating issue of the private lessee of public property. Why should the private lessee not enjoy full rights of ownership? Those who don't think so, defend your positions.

Folks there are good arguments on both sides of this. It needs to be settled in court. Right now the administrative rules vis-a-vis preemption issue is up in the air, except in King County (Chan decision.)
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
Ummmm.....isn't Safeco Field in King County?????
Uh yeah. I had hoped that people were smart enough not to need the obvious pointed out to them.

The Chan decision does not affect administrative rules of private entities, which the lessees of Safeco are.
 

END_THE_FED

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
925
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
Really? You obviously have't read the RCW in a while. It preempts laws and ordinances, not administrative rules. Furthermore, given that these sorts of municipal corporations do not have the authority to enact laws or ordinances, the preemption RCW is even less relevant.

Then we have the complicating issue of the private lessee of public property. Why should the private lessee not enjoy full rights of ownership? Those who don't think so, defend your positions.

Folks there are good arguments on both sides of this. It needs to be settled in court. Right now the administrative rules vis-a-vis preemption issue is up in the air, except in King County (Chan decision.)


I should have reviewed the RCW a bit more carefully. it says in part, "....entire field of firearms regulation...." I took that to also include "rules". You are right the RCW goes on to specifically mention "laws and ordinances". For some reason I was thinking that The ban in Seattle parks was a rule, but I may be wrong maybe it was actually a city ordinance?

You are right, preemption doesn't really apply because these kinds of "Municipalities" cant pass laws.

When I mentioned the private-party lease issue I may not have been as clear as I should have been. I did not intend to give the impression that the matter is settled. I was trying to explain that the issue has yet to be settled in court. So far private entities have been able to restrict firearms via trespass laws, but it is not a settled matter and may end up in court at some point.


"Why should the private lessee not enjoy full rights of ownership?"
I feel that if a private entity rents a public space (especially if the event is open to the public) it is different then renting a space that is not public.

If we are dealing with a purely private venue like a hotel convention center, then I would say that the renter as the right to set any rules they wish. But when we are talking about renting a public venue I think that it should be subject to certain restrictions.

A public place is funded by tax dollars. I think of it as being (in a sense) owned by "the people" and managed by the government. When we voted for tax levies to pay for parks we did it with the assumption that we would be able to use the park.

The city does not have the right to trespass someone for carrying a gun, so how can they delegate that right to another entity? The city shouldn't be able to "rent out" our right to carry a firearm in a public place because it is not their right to "rent out".

If a private entity wants to exercise the privilege to rent out a public space then it should be understood that they don't have the same "property rights" that they would if they rented a private space.

(Just my opinion)
 
Last edited:

hermannr

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,327
Location
Okanogan Highland
What do you do when the party you are suing successfully moves to have the case transferred to Superior Court? Now you have to put up with the lawyers they are paying anyway. It happens all the time. Oh, by the way, if that happens and they prevail you can get stuck with the attorney fees.

They can't get a small claims court claim moved until you have a judgement from the small claims court. Then you can move it to superior court to collect the small claim if the looser won't pay. To get anything done in small claims court you have to show up, personally. If you are a corporation, you have to send an officer of the corporation, personally.

Small claims court is for just for that, small claims (under $5k here in WA, or at least that is what it was) and it is there specifically to protect the little guy from the deep pockets and slick lawyers of the big guy that could discovery disposition the little guy into bankruptcy. That is it's sole purpose.

I will give you an example. Many years ago, I purchased 2 Very inexpensive airline tickets for my MIL and SFIL to fly from NY to Seattle. The airline did not honor those tickets and as my inlaws were already at the airport I paid over $1K extra a seat to get them on the airplane.

I paid the extra, and when we were back here in WA I sent a certified letter to the Airline, gave them 30 days to respond, or I was filing a claim for $2,500 in Small claims court in Skagit Co, WA for the cost of the tickets, Small claims court costs, and the cost of my time.

The Airline got back to me in about 5 days. First they said I could not file in Skagit County because they were located in XXXX. I said, yes I can, because Skagit County was where I purchased the initial tickets that were not honored, and I can file where the transaction took place. Second they tried to get me to take 2 round trip tickets to anywhere they flew, I said, no, I want my money back. 5 days later I had a certified Check for $2500... It works.
 

amlevin

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
They can't get a small claims court claim moved until you have a judgement from the small claims court. Then you can move it to superior court to collect the small claim if the looser won't pay. To get anything done in small claims court you have to show up, personally. If you are a corporation, you have to send an officer of the corporation, personally.

Small claims court is for just for that, small claims (under $5k here in WA, or at least that is what it was) and it is there specifically to protect the little guy from the deep pockets and slick lawyers of the big guy that could discovery disposition the little guy into bankruptcy. That is it's sole purpose.

I will give you an example. Many years ago, I purchased 2 Very inexpensive airline tickets for my MIL and SFIL to fly from NY to Seattle. The airline did not honor those tickets and as my inlaws were already at the airport I paid over $1K extra a seat to get them on the airplane.

I paid the extra, and when we were back here in WA I sent a certified letter to the Airline, gave them 30 days to respond, or I was filing a claim for $2,500 in Small claims court in Skagit Co, WA for the cost of the tickets, Small claims court costs, and the cost of my time.

The Airline got back to me in about 5 days. First they said I could not file in Skagit County because they were located in XXXX. I said, yes I can, because Skagit County was where I purchased the initial tickets that were not honored, and I can file where the transaction took place. Second they tried to get me to take 2 round trip tickets to anywhere they flew, I said, no, I want my money back. 5 days later I had a certified Check for $2500... It works.

At least it worked FOR YOU.

Here are the rules for Removal to another Court:

Removal to another Court: Pursuant to the Washington Revised Code Section 4.14.010
Whenever the removal of such action to superior court is required in order to acquire jurisdiction over a third party defendant, who is or may be liable to the defendant for all or part of the judgment and resides outside the county wherein the action was commenced, any civil action which could have been brought in superior court may, if commenced in district court, be removed by the defendant or defendants to the superior court for the county where such action is pending if the district court determines that there are reasonable grounds to believe that a third party may be liable to the plaintiff and issues an order so stating. Whenever a separate or independent claim or cause of action which would be removable if sued upon alone is joined with one or more otherwise nonremovable claims or causes of action, the entire case may be removed and the superior court may determine all issues therein, or, in its discretion, may remand all matters not otherwise within its original jurisdiction.

Where does it say there has to be a judgement first? That it can only be done if you are unable to collect.

One reason in a "ticket claim" case could be the necessity to collect from a third party who resides outside the county where you filed.

I too have used Small Claims court and it's fine until you go against a large Corporation and you end up having to chase them all over the country because they are either Delaware or Nevada Corporations and only do business through commissioned agencies.

The success of one person in one situation does not guarantee success for others in their situation.

As for having to sue for a refund of a ticket to a ball game because I was denied entry, I'll never have that problem. I don't buy tickets to support the prima-dona's that dominate Sports today. I
 

jddssc121

Regular Member
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
282
Location
, ,
it's leased and as such, the lease gets the full benefits of "private property". The can ban firearms if they want (and they do)

A municipality acts in a proprietary capacity when it “acts as the proprietor of
a business enterprise for the private advantage of the [municipality]” and it may
“exercise its business powers in much the same way as a private individual or
corporation.” Hite v. Pub. Util. Dist. No. 2 of Grant County, 112 Wn.2d 456, 459,
772 P.2d 481 (1989); Branson v. Port of Seattle, 152 Wn.2d 862, 870, 101 P.3d 67
(2004). When acting in a proprietary capacity, a city may enter into any contract
“‘which is necessary to render the system efficient and beneficial to the public.’”
Hite, 112 Wn.2d at 460 (quoting Puget Sound Power & Light Co. v. Pub. Util.
Dist. No. 1, 17 Wn. App. 861, 864, 565 P.2d 1221 (1977)); see also Stover v.
Winston Bros. Co., 185 Wash. 416, 422, 55 P.2d 821 (1936).


Also...........Go read the Sequim case http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;id=24

Applying our reasoning in Cherry, it follows that a municipal property owner like a
private property owner may impose conditions related to firearms for the use of its
property in order to protect its property interests. For the same reason that a
municipal employer may enact policies regarding possession of firearms in the
workplace because a private employer may do so, a municipal property owner
should be allowed to impose conditions related to sales of firearms on its property if
a private property owner may impose them. The critical point is that the conditions
the city imposed related to a permit for private use of its property. They were not
laws or regulations of application to the general public.


Since Safeco is not open to "the general public" but rather only ticket holders, it would be considered a "private event", so again, they could restrict firearms if the desire.
 

KrautBurner

New member
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
3
Location
bremerton, wa
My friend plans to go to a baseball game at Safeco Field in Seattle. She has a Washington Concealed Handgun License.

She takes self-defense seriously, never leaves home without her handgun. She asked me about taking her gun, but I don't know what they do for security there. It's private property, so presumably the owner can ban weapons if they have no regard for the rights of law abiding citizens.

Does anyone know if there are metal detectors that would cause her a problem?

She's going tomorrow, Monday, May 30, so she needs a reply right now! Sorry.

so,

did your friend decide to carry in?
did she come into any issues?


I know that about 2 years ago I went to two games
each one, went thru security,
was asked to raise my jacket.
they said I was good.

one time, I responded "are you not gonna check my ankle holster?"
and got a laugh, was told "it's good" and to enjoy the game
 

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,669
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
How was the game and did you carry?

Felix was on the mound and the M's blew them out 8-2. Yes I carried, my Sig P250 subcompact (.40) with no issues. They do a 'bag check' at the entrances looking for alcohol or WMD's, but do not do any search of one's person.

247375_1371911234322_1728023493_649297_6207905_n.jpg
 

Johnsmith1521

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2011
Messages
140
Location
Tacoma, WA
Felix was on the mound and the M's blew them out 8-2. Yes I carried, my Sig P250 subcompact (.40) with no issues. They do a 'bag check' at the entrances looking for alcohol or WMD's, but do not do any search of one's person.

247375_1371911234322_1728023493_649297_6207905_n.jpg

+1 sweet! On a diffrent note, how do you like your P250? I was thinking of getting one in 9mm..
 

KBCraig

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,886
Location
Granite State of Mind
They do a 'bag check' at the entrances looking for alcohol or WMD's, but do not do any search of one's person.
Like every pro sports venue, they don't conduct security searches. They only conduct "bag checks" to make sure no one sneaks in a bottle of water or a sandwich, so you have to buy $3 bottles of water, $7 beers, and $9 hot dogs.
 

oldkim

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
375
Location
Kent, Washington, USA
So be warned...

Searches...

Now at the Mariner's games... it's typically a very light bag check. Hint: don't carry a bag. Make someone else in your party carry the bag...

At the Seahawk's Game... I have been patted down around the waist. Hint: don't carry it around the waist.
 

07Altima

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2011
Messages
131
Location
Monroe
Replying :)

So, is the entity that owns the stadium a "municipality" under WA law, as listed in the quoted section? Second, since that entity has leased the stadium to a "user," doesn't the user have, as most leaseholders have, the "right to enjoy" the property, which, under typical law, includes the right to set the conditions under which it invites others onto that property?

It seems to me that the leaseholder is setting the no-weapons policy, not the municipality (if it is a municipality).

On edit: BTW, I noticed the way you spelled hi. I lived in Denmark for three years. That's how they spell it. Got Scandinavian links?

I just wanted to say that because they are leasing Public Land they have to abide by State Law, and Preemption, it would be like me renting a park, and banning little kids from playing on the swings, you dont have the right to ask any one on public land to do anything, unless they are violating the city or state law, and any attempt of a lease holder of public lands to violate your Constitutional rights can result in the revocation of their lease!!!

The Idea behind this is that being public land it is owned by the public, not just one person but all people, and therefor is subject to the public law.

If I rented out my apartment, or house I could make all the rules I wanted to because it is privately owned by one person, and you can get an answer from the private owner by just calling or asking in person,also if you notice when signing a lease for rentals you have to sign a contract. If the contract does not allow them to violate preemption then they cant do it. However to get a question answered by the public you would need to do a costly vote. So its not a matter of if they have made rules or not.

The fact remains that the lease holder can not dictate to the property owner, or one of the many thousands of owners that he or she can not do what the public law protects them doing on land they partly own.

It could get messy but even if it went to the supreme court it would be ruled in the favor of the member of public because he or she was not violating the law.

Also only Government may dictate what happens or does not happen on public lands leased or not! this is the very basis of a representative Government. They Represent our view or our voice, and if they do not we can vote them out.

If you need a copy or official copy of the gun laws in WA you can get one from your local Police department or courthouse in most cases. Highlight everything that is important or would possibly ever pertain to you, and get some quick flip tabs too.
 
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