Do I have to show I.D. If I'm Stopped for OC'ing?

OC for ME said:

....if approached by a LEO, AND you are not doing any wrong, whip out your cell phone, dial 911 and state clearly and loudly that you have been stopped by someone who purports to be a police officer, would they send a police officer to investigate, then give your location and a description of the person. Also, tell the 911 dispatcher that this person is wearing a pistol on his hip just like police officers do.

Click to expand...

I used to do this when attacked by LEOs. They literally laughed at me. "Do what they tell you to or you get what you deserve. Shut up about your 'Rights,' you don't have any and it makes them mad..."

Guess what happened when I tried to FOIA the recording of that call...

It won't make your attacker feel bad if you call up his friends to tell them about it. It's also a really lousy replacement for a voice recorder. When they are the sole custodians of evidence, and that evidence incriminates them, well, duh, they destroy it. See what happened to Skidmark in VA? They're going to hang around the water cooler and tell jokes about you anyway. Yer not Born until yer Sworn...

Sworn to do what? The opposite of what you're doing! Cute... effing LEOs... I think that by being born in the US of A, I'm sworn not to put up with that bullsh!t, like those who came before me. So many gave so much, and I'm going to let it slide? Hell no. In my mind, that's the ultimate ingratitude for those who died to make and preserve this Nation. It's not about me or my convenience. It's bigger than me.

str3ngthz said:

Hello,
I'm sorry if this is a [troll] question everyone already knows but I've searched long and hard to try to answer it on my own.
If I'm stopped by LE while OC'ing, do I have to surrender my I.D. to them if they ask? Please help! If possible provide the statute that says I do or don't, Thanks!

Click to expand...

Good replies above. To add, it matters where you are and if you are driving a car.

It's called mandatory stop and ID. If you are walking in an area of known criminal activity, that can be SAF/RAS, apparently. So you may ask 'Why am I being detained' (again only if you are on foot - in a car or 'vehicle' or I suppose bicycle it's probable that you have to show some ID or give your name and DOB).

Remember LEOs can ask just about anything. What they can demand under color of authority is a different thing. Because it's confusing depending where you are and even time of day, apparently, sometimes you have to use your own judgment and make a decision just how long you feel like being tagged and bagged while they sort it out. Not all people OC for the political and 2A reasons.

Good luck (and tell us more specifics)

OK, I'm seeing people froth at the mouth from everywhere BUT AZ!!!????!!!

I see one guy ask a question in the AZ forum, and every Tom, Dick, and Harriette from outside of AZ want to put their 2-cents worth in about generalities of LEO.

Why don't y'all take this to the general discussion forum. Can anyone in this thread give specific problems with AZ law, or AZ cops? Have any of you actuall BEEN to AZ? Have any of you OC'd in AZ???

Why don't y'all take this to the general discussion forum. Can anyone in this thread give specific problems with AZ law, or AZ cops? Have any of you actuall BEEN to AZ? Have any of you OC'd in AZ???

Click to expand...

Yes, lived there for a time and hope to return one day.
and Yes, both pistols and even with a long arm strapped to the handlebars of my mountain bike.

AZkopper said:

OK, I'm seeing people froth at the mouth from everywhere BUT AZ!!!????!!!

I see one guy ask a question in the AZ forum, and every Tom, Dick, and Harriette from outside of AZ want to put their 2-cents worth in about generalities of LEO.

Why don't y'all take this to the general discussion forum. Can anyone in this thread give specific problems with AZ law, or AZ cops? Have any of you actuall BEEN to AZ? Have any of you OC'd in AZ???

Click to expand...

Yeah... I noticed the same thing. THIS IS ARIZONA... not Podunk Nannyland. Unlesss you're doin' somethin' really wierd... your'e not gonna be stopped for OC'n ANYTHING. Unlike 'elsewhere'... LEO's here know that carrying openly is not against any 'law'. 'Never has been... even before there was an Arizona. Yeah... I know... the Earps tried it in Tombstone (once). Such 'OMG... he's got a gun' paranoia doesn't exist in AZ. Even where it does (among the noobs) nobody pays any attention to their hysterics. Damn... if y'all came to AZ you wouldn't have anything to bitch about anymore. (GASP!)

ixtow said:

Start crap with LEOs? they're the ones approaching and demanding ID for a non-criminal behavior that is none of their business.

If a LEO demands ID from you for no reason, or states a perfectly legal activity as his/her reason; the crap has already been started; BY THE LEO. Beyond that, you deserve what you tolerate.

You shouldn't have to assert your Rights, they should be respected. If a LEO starts crap with you, well, it's your choice. But I'd suggest not putting up with it.

Click to expand...

I'm not aware of any state wherein a cop can walk up to you and demand identification, verbal or otherwise. There has to be grounds, usually RAS of a crime having been or about to be committed. CO has a stop and ID law but ONLY with RAS. It is possible that certain slave states allow their Gestapo to do this, but I can honestly not say I'm aware of any. Will have to do some research on the gulags and PDRs.

NavyLCDR said:

aadvark,

Respectfully, that is NOT a stop and ID statute. Notice the part I bolded above. A stop and ID statute provides authority for a police officer to stop a law abiding citizen for ANY reason and demand from them their name. The statute above only gives authority for a police officer to do so of a person who has been LAWFULLY DETAINED under SUSPICION OF COMMITTING A CRIME.

Lawfully carrying a firearm is not, by itself, RAS of a crime being committed. A 911 call reporting a MWAG engaging in perfectly legal activity (shopping, eating in a restaurant, walking in a park), is not RAS of a crime being committed.

The statute above does not prohibit a police officer from asking a person for their name, absent suspicion of a crime, however it does not require that person to answer, unless they ARE being detained for suspicion of a crime, and the police officer MUST notify them that they are being detained under suspicion of committing a crime before an answer can be required.

Click to expand...

NO. Most emphatically, NO.

Stop & ID is about RAS. Otherwise, there should NEVER be onus to provide ANY information to LE. You are flat out incorrect.
You should go back, read Terry v Ohio, and Hiibel, and as an addendum, Kolender v Lawson. THEN come back and readdress your false statement.

“Stop and identify” statutes are laws in the United States that allow police to detain persons reasonably suspected of involvement in a crime and require persons so detained to identify themselves to the police.

Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes


aadvark correctly cited the AZ "Stop and ID" statute, as listed at the link I provided.


http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/02412.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS

13-2412. Refusing to provide truthful name when lawfully detained; classification

A. It is unlawful for a person, after being advised that the person's refusal to answer is unlawful, to fail or refuse to state the person's true full name on request of a peace officer who has lawfully detained the person based on reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing or is about to commit a crime. A person detained under this section shall state the person's true full name, but shall not be compelled to answer any other inquiry of a peace officer.

B. A person who violates this section is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor.

Click to expand...

Note the portion "when lawfully detained." Otherwise, complete silence in the face of questions is entirely "respectful."

Gunslinger said:

I'm not aware of any state wherein a cop can walk up to you and demand identification, verbal or otherwise. There has to be grounds, usually RAS of a crime having been or about to be committed. CO has a stop and ID law but ONLY with RAS. It is possible that certain slave states allow their Gestapo to do this, but I can honestly not say I'm aware of any. Will have to do some research on the gulags and PDRs.

Click to expand...

There's a difference between asking and demanding though.

I'm not aware of any state where police are prohibited from asking anyone they like for ID for any reason at all. Doesn't mean they can detain you over it or charge you with anything if you decline of course.

str3ngthz said:

Hello,
I'm sorry if this is a [troll] question everyone already knows but I've searched long and hard to try to answer it on my own.
If I'm stopped by LE while OC'ing, do I have to surrender my I.D. to them if they ask? Please help! If possible provide the statute that says I do or don't, Thanks!

Click to expand...

Start by reading Terry v Ohio. Then review that "Stop and ID" statute that has been presented.

Statute will not be likely to tell you that you don't have to provide ID. In fact, LE can ask you anything they want to ask you. But, other than the "Identify for reasonable suspicion detainment," you are NOT required to answer.


As for "surrender your ID?" Unless specific statute exists (none that I know of) defining it, NO. If you are driving, you are likely to be required to hand over your DL.

NavyLCDR said:

You are correct, sir. I was mistaken. Thank you for so respectfully pointing out my error.

Click to expand...

Frankly, I am completely stunned that this was not pointed out about an hour after you posted. Had I seen it earlier, it would have.

NavyLCDR said:

Thank you again for so eloquently pointing out the intelligence and knowledge of the other members of this forum.

Click to expand...

I disagree. More of "pointing out the oversight."

JesseL said:

There's a difference between asking and demanding though.

I'm not aware of any state where police are prohibited from asking anyone they like for ID for any reason at all. Doesn't mean they can detain you over it or charge you with anything if you decline of course.

Click to expand...

They can always ask 'anything' they like, and often do. Standard police tactics. However, failing RAS, they have no legal standing to do so and you have no duty to answer and cannot be detained, as you note.

Sonora Rebel said:

Yeah... I noticed the same thing. THIS IS ARIZONA... not Podunk Nannyland. Unlesss you're doin' somethin' really wierd... your'e not gonna be stopped for OC'n ANYTHING. Unlike 'elsewhere'... LEO's here know that carrying openly is not against any 'law'. 'Never has been... even before there was an Arizona. Yeah... I know... the Earps tried it in Tombstone (once). Such 'OMG... he's got a gun' paranoia doesn't exist in AZ. Even where it does (among the noobs) nobody pays any attention to their hysterics. Damn... if y'all came to AZ you wouldn't have anything to bitch about anymore. (GASP!)

Click to expand...

thank u rebel..i think this post can end now...way too many outa staters on here

Gunslinger said:

I'm not aware of any state wherein a cop can walk up to you and demand identification, verbal or otherwise.

Click to expand...

Tennessee. Carrying a gun in Tennessee is unlawful period. Having a permit is a defense to the offense meaning the LEO can arrest you without ever even checking for a permit and you can produce your permit in court as a defense to the charges. So, if they have the authority to arrest you, they have the authority to demand ID.

Georgia had a similar law where carrying a gun concealed was a crime and having a license a defense to that crime, so if LEO caught sight of a concealed gun he could demand a permit. Thankfully not anymore. Never was that way for OC though.

NavyLCDR said:

OMG! Put your flame suit on! From Georgia, posting about Tennessee law on an Arizona forum... Gonna upset the natives!

Click to expand...

It is Monday and there was no coffee when I got to work. I am ready...Bring it on!

ETA: And I am not "from" Georgia. I just live here...For now anyway.

amzbrady said:

You give up your 4th Amendment to protect your 2nd Amendment??? :uhoh:
You start the crap by the cop walking up to you and asking you for ID??? :shocker:
You really believe they are going to respect you because you gave up your rights to them?:lol:
No it makes gun carriers look like they know the laws, and will not give up our rights to appease the LEO. :banghead:
I dont know too many gun owners who think they are better than LEO, just dont want to have to rely on LEO.:idea:
Responsible gun owners who know their rights and are able to deal with LEO and if confronted do not back down, and if problems arise, these problems are addressed thru their superiors by getting them to issue training bulletins. Staying strong and sticking together is how you get more leniant gun laws. :cuss:

Click to expand...

LOL amazing. Love your response!

JoeGlock40 said:

thank u rebel..i think this post can end now...way too many outa staters on here

Click to expand...

On the contrary, I enjoy listening to what people would say if LE ever asked me for I.d. A simple, "No, you don't have to." doesn't cut it for me. I like to hear everyone's advice, though I didn't intend for this thread to become invaded by outa-staters. :lol: