Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Small Discrepancy. Kitsap Vs State laws

  1. #1
    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Port Orchard, Washington, United States
    Posts
    504

    Small Discrepancy. Kitsap Vs State laws

    Ok, so I was just browsing through the Kitsap County Codes and I found something that is slightly off from the Washington State laws. Now, when I say slightly, I mean VERY slightly, though it is still more restrictive than the similar RCW.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chapter 6.20
    OUTDOOR MUSICAL ENTERTAINMENT

    6.20.020 Definitions.
    (c) “Outdoor music festival” or “music festival” or “festival” means an assembly of persons gathered primarily for outdoor, live or recorded musical entertainment, where the predicted attendance and/or actual attendance is five hundred persons or more, but less than two thousand persons, and where the duration of the program is five hours or longer; provided, that this definition shall not be applied to any regularly established permanent place of worship, stadium, athletic field, arena, auditorium, coliseum, or other similar permanently established places of assembly for assemblies which do not exceed by more than two hundred fifty people for maximum seating capacity of the structure where the assembly is held; provided further, that this definition shall not apply to government-sponsored fairs held on regularly established fairgrounds nor to assemblies required to be licensed under other laws or regulations of the state.

    6.20.140 Firearms – Penalty.
    (a) It is unlawful for any person, except law enforcement officers, to carry, transport or convey, or to have in his possession or under his control any firearm while on the site of an outdoor music festival.

    (b) Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars and not more than two hundred dollars or by imprisonment in the county jail for not less than ten days and not more than ninety days or by both such fine and imprisonment.

    (Ord. 60 (1975) § 15, 1975)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chapter 70.108 RCW
    Outdoor music festivals

    70.108.020
    Definitions.
    For the purposes of this chapter the following words and phrases shall have the indicated meanings:

    (1) "Outdoor music festival" or "music festival" or "festival" means an assembly of persons gathered primarily for outdoor, live or recorded musical entertainment, where the predicted attendance is two thousand persons or more and where the duration of the program is five hours or longer: PROVIDED, That this definition shall not be applied to any regularly established permanent place of worship, stadium, athletic field, arena, auditorium, coliseum, or other similar permanently established places of assembly for assemblies which do not exceed by more than two hundred fifty people the maximum seating capacity of the structure where the assembly is held: PROVIDED, FURTHER, That this definition shall not apply to government sponsored fairs held on regularly established fairgrounds nor to assemblies required to be licensed under other laws or regulations of the state.

    70.108.150
    Firearms — Penalty.
    It shall be unlawful for any person, except law enforcement officers, to carry, transport or convey, or to have in his possession or under his control any firearm while on the site of an outdoor music festival.

    Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars and not more than two hundred dollars or by imprisonment in the county jail for not less than ten days and not more than ninety days or by both such fine and imprisonment.


    [1972 ex.s. c 123 § 5.]
    According to state law, the festival that Kitsap county mentions would not be covered in the No Firearm Area, so Kitsap is breaking preemption, correct?



    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I didn't want to make another thread, though I found another discrepancy. Please let me know if I am wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chapter 10.24
    10.24.060 General regulations.
    (b) No person shall deliver a pistol to any person under the age of twenty-one or to one who he has reasonable cause to believe has been convicted of a crime of violence, or is a drug addict, an habitual drunkard, or of unsound mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by RCW 9.41.080
    Delivery to ineligible persons.

    No person may deliver a firearm to any person whom he or she has reasonable cause to believe is ineligible under RCW 9.41.040 to possess a firearm. Any person violating this section is guilty of a class C felony, punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW.
    RCW 9.41.040 does not mention the delivery of a Handgun to someone under 21, the only age restriction I can find is delivery of a firearm to someone under 18.
    Last edited by xxx.jakk.xxx; 05-31-2011 at 04:50 AM.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

    "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Benjamin Franklin

    “It’s always open season on criminals in Mason County, and there’s no bag limit.” Sen. Tim Sheldon (D)

    Molōn labe!

  2. #2
    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Port Orchard, Washington, United States
    Posts
    504
    I Sent an E-mail to the Kitsap County Sheriff's office. I didn't copy the message and it didn't save to my sent folder, so when I get a response, if I get one, I will post the e-mail and response.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

    "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Benjamin Franklin

    “It’s always open season on criminals in Mason County, and there’s no bag limit.” Sen. Tim Sheldon (D)

    Molōn labe!

  3. #3
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Yakima, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,463
    The Sheriff does not have authority to change ordinances, contacting the County Legal or the County Commissioners is where you can get that ball rolling.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  4. #4
    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Port Orchard, Washington, United States
    Posts
    504
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    The Sheriff does not have authority to change ordinances, contacting the County Legal or the County Commissioners is where you can get that ball rolling.
    Okay, thank you. I have never done anything even close to trying to get an ordinance changed. I saw that the code could be accessed through the sheriff's office and just put 2 and 2 together. Lol

    As soon as I get a response from the Sheriff/ whoever answers questions, I will make sure to send an e-mail to the appropriate person/s.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

    "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Benjamin Franklin

    “It’s always open season on criminals in Mason County, and there’s no bag limit.” Sen. Tim Sheldon (D)

    Molōn labe!

  5. #5
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Nortonville, KY, USA
    Posts
    4,291
    in reference to handguns.....

    So you want to buy a pistol at the age 18 from a private seller? Lets go look at Title 18 USC 922 the section on Unlawful Acts (subsection X)
    http://www.nraila.org/federalfirearms.htm#Sec.%20922

    which states:
    (1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile:
    (A) a handgun;or
    (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

    (5) For purposes of this subsection, the term "juvenile" means a person who is less than 18 years of age.

    So the Feds allow you to buy a handgun at 18 from private sellers but according to Washington RCW 9.41.240 you can only carry it on your own property. WRONG because RCW 9.41.060 provides an exception for 9.41.240 as well as 9.41.050 (concealed about your person & loaded in a vehicle). Specifically look at sections 7 & 8 in RCW 9.41.060. Because of this exception you can carry that pistol concealed about your person if you are a member of a gun collector club (think WAC), going to and from the events. If you meet the requirements in section 8 (hiking, hunting, fishing, etc), you may carry that pistol to and from that activity as well.

    I am not a lawyer and this is by no means legal advice.

    RCW 9.41.240
    Possession of pistol by person from eighteen to twenty-one.
    Unless an exception under RCW 9.41.042, 9.41.050, or 9.41.060 applies, a person at least eighteen years of age, but less than twenty-one years of age, may possess a pistol only:
    (1) In the person's place of abode;
    (2) At the person's fixed place of business; or
    (3) On real property under his or her control.

    RCW 9.41.050
    Carrying firearms.
    (1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.
    (b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.
    (2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
    (b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.
    (3)(a) A person at least eighteen years of age who is in possession of an unloaded pistol shall not leave the unloaded pistol in a vehicle unless the unloaded pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
    (b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.
    (4) Nothing in this section permits the possession of firearms illegal to possess under state or federal law.

    RCW 9.41.060
    Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.
    The provisions of RCW 9.41.050 shall not apply to:
    (1) Marshals, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens or their deputies, or other law enforcement officers of this state or another state;
    (2) Members of the armed forces of the United States or of the National Guard or organized reserves, when on duty;
    (3) Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed pistol;
    (4) Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of the person, if possessing, using, or carrying a pistol in the usual or ordinary course of the business;
    (5) Regularly enrolled members of any organization duly authorized to purchase or receive pistols from the United States or from this state;
    (6) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of target shooting, when those members are at or are going to or from their places of target practice;

    (7) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of modern and antique firearm collecting, when those members are at or are going to or from their collector's gun shows and exhibits;

    (8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;

    (9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper; or
    (10) Law enforcement officers retired for service or physical disabilities, except for those law enforcement officers retired because of mental or stress-related disabilities. This subsection applies only to a retired officer who has: (a) Obtained documentation from a law enforcement agency within Washington state from which he or she retired that is signed by the agency's chief law enforcement officer and that states that the retired officer was retired for service or physical disability; and (b) not been convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity of a crime making him or her ineligible for a concealed pistol license.

    Title 18 USC Section 922 - Unlawful acts (see subsection X)
    (1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile:
    (A) a handgun;or
    (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
    (2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess:
    (A) a handgun;or
    (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

    (3) This subsection does not apply to:
    (A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile:
    (i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;
    (ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm, except:
    (I) during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded handgun in a locked container directly from the place of transfer to a place at which an activity described in clause (i) is to take place and transportation by the juvenile of that handgun, unloaded and in a locked container, directly from the place at which such an activity took place to the transferor or;
    (II) with respect to ranching or farming activities as described in clause(i), a juvenile may possess and use a handgun or ammunition with the prior written approval of the juvenile's parent or legal guardian and at the direction of an adult who is not prohibited by Federal, State or local law from possessing a firearm;
    (iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile's possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the juvenile; and
    (iv) in accordance with State and local law;
    (B) a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard who possesses or is armed with a handgun in the line of duty;
    (C) a transfer by inheritance of title (but not possession) of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile;or
    (D) the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile taken in defense of the juvenile or other persons against an intruder into the residence of the juvenile or a residence in which the juvenile is an invited guest.
    (4) A handgun or ammunition, the possession of which is transferred to a juvenile in circumstances in which the transferor is not in violation of this subsection shall not be subject to permanent confiscation by the Government if its possession by the juvenile subsequently becomes unlawful because of the conduct of the juvenile, but shall be returned to the lawful owner when such handgun or ammunition is no longer required by the Government for the purposes of investigation or prosecution.
    (5) For purposes of this subsection, the term "juvenile" means a person who is less than 18 years of age.

  6. #6
    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Port Orchard, Washington, United States
    Posts
    504
    Thank you M1, that is a much better cite to why the second is breaking preemption.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

    "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Benjamin Franklin

    “It’s always open season on criminals in Mason County, and there’s no bag limit.” Sen. Tim Sheldon (D)

    Molōn labe!

  7. #7
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Nortonville, KY, USA
    Posts
    4,291
    Quote Originally Posted by xxx.jakk.xxx View Post
    Thank you M1, that is a much better cite to why the second is breaking preemption.
    redacted
    Last edited by Bill Starks; 06-01-2011 at 12:39 AM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member LibertyDeath's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Inland Empire, CA
    Posts
    129
    Why isn't an outdoor music festival mentioned in 9.41.300 or iirc anywhere in 9.41

  9. #9
    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Port Orchard, Washington, United States
    Posts
    504
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyDeath View Post
    Why isn't an outdoor music festival mentioned in 9.41.300 or iirc anywhere in 9.41
    I have no idea. You'd think that they would put all places in that list, not most of them and expect a gun owner to check every possible event/ place to see if they just happen to not be on that list of restricted areas.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

    "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Benjamin Franklin

    “It’s always open season on criminals in Mason County, and there’s no bag limit.” Sen. Tim Sheldon (D)

    Molōn labe!

  10. #10
    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Port Orchard, Washington, United States
    Posts
    504
    I finally got a response from the Chief Deputy Prosecuting Attorney of Kitsap County.

    Dear Mr. Murphy: (misspelled my last name... =[ )


    Thank you for your inquiry concerning firearms regulations contained in Kitsap County's Municipal Code and your patience as it was considered. The County Commissioners asked that we reply on their behalf.

    We concur that 9.41 RCW preempt's a county's authority to enact local laws of application to the general public that prohibit possession of firearms on county property or in county-owned facilities unless specifically authorized by state law. To the extent County ordinances are inconsistent with state law, by operation of RCW 9.41.290 they have been preempted and repealed, and are ineffective and may not be enforced.

    The County is aware that various code provisions need updating, however, significant revenue shortfalls, budget constraints, and staff reductions have led to delays in that process. The Code sections identified in your email will be included in our office's review of provisions which conflict with state law. We appreciate the public's patience as the County balances project priorities.

    Sincerely yours,

    Russel D. Hauge
    Prosecuting Attorney

    Jacquelyn M. Aufderheide
    Chief Deputy Prosecuting Attorney
    Jacquelyn is the one who signed the letter.


    I'm a little confused about the Middle paragraph since I'm pretty sure I didn't mention possession on County property but at least it did mention that they will add the sections I noted to the list of "conflict with state law".


    Thank you Dave for letting me know who it had to go to. The commissioners sent it to the Prosecuting attorneys so they were definitely the right people to go to.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

    "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Benjamin Franklin

    “It’s always open season on criminals in Mason County, and there’s no bag limit.” Sen. Tim Sheldon (D)

    Molōn labe!

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Wa, ,
    Posts
    2,769
    Once again the old "Budget shortfall" excuse for removing / changing signs. I do believe that a small can od paint of appropriate color and a 1/2" brush in the hands of a person serving COMMUNITY SERVICE could make the corrections as needed.

  12. #12
    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Port Orchard, Washington, United States
    Posts
    504
    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    Once again the old "Budget shortfall" excuse for removing / changing signs. I do believe that a small can od paint of appropriate color and a 1/2" brush in the hands of a person serving COMMUNITY SERVICE could make the corrections as needed.
    Lol. I'm betting if they asked, the Washington OC members would go around their respective areas and cover and firearms related codes on signs that violate state law... but then they wouldn't be able to be sure it violates I guess.

    Funny thing is that the place that I found these discrepancies online on their codepublishing website. I think they'd just need a webmaster with a last of ordinances and a few hours to fix it all.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

    "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Benjamin Franklin

    “It’s always open season on criminals in Mason County, and there’s no bag limit.” Sen. Tim Sheldon (D)

    Molōn labe!

  13. #13
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Yakima, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,463
    xxx.jakk.xxx, you are welcome and thank you for following through, even though they cite cost, low on staff blah blah blah, they are well aware it is not enforceable and hopefully soon they will correct it.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Wa, ,
    Posts
    2,769
    Right!!!! Like the +3 years after Ajetpilot first approached about the illegal no firearms sign on the door of the admin bldg.

  15. #15
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Yakima, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,463
    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    Right!!!! Like the +3 years after Ajetpilot first approached about the illegal no firearms sign on the door of the admin bldg.
    Well sounds like a group of open carriers need to make a field trip with the local media and make those statements.
    We can sit here and complain but how many really take legal action such as suggested.
    There is a hand full that actually walk the talk.

    I would say it will be difficult for them to justify not acting on this as Trigger said it has been 3 years.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  16. #16
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North of Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    5,953
    Quote Originally Posted by xxx.jakk.xxx View Post

    Funny thing is that the place that I found these discrepancies online on their codepublishing website. I think they'd just need a webmaster with a last of ordinances and a few hours to fix it all.
    The "code publishing website" provides this service to numerous jurisdictions all over the country. They can't merely make changes, it has to be done after they receive a copy of the "revised code".

    It's easy for a governing body to merely say "it's changed" but it does require some expense in re-writing the actual code.

    The reply essentially said what I have been saying for some time. The State preempted all these provisions and the cities/counties are aware that they are unenforceable (even Seattle now). The question is, do we spend money keeping our government operating with essential services or do we go out immediately and fix all these signs. It's just easier to tell the Police, don't cite because we won't prosecute.

    It's just like a homeowner in tough economic times. Do you fix the leaky roof or paint the house?

    It would be interesting to see what their response would be to an offer of volunteer assistance on correcting the signs. Anyone want to bet that the Union representing County Employees would block any effort like this? There is precedent for this kind of Union action. A group of parents wanted to clean and paint a run-down school facility in Everett. Were advised that the Union claimed that it was "their work" and would sue if the District allowed volunteer labor to even touch a paint brush.

    As for me, when I see a sign like this I merely go about my business.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  17. #17
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Yakima, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,463
    Agreed it has been my experience that the City Attorney researches the laws and makes his recommendations to the city or county council/commissioners which in turn may direct legal to draft up a correction or rewording of the ordinance that comes before the council/commissioners to be discussed, possibly a public hearing and then voted on.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  18. #18
    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Central South Sound
    Posts
    1,025
    Quote Originally Posted by xxx.jakk.xxx View Post
    I finally got a response from the Chief Deputy Prosecuting Attorney of Kitsap County.



    Jacquelyn is the one who signed the letter.


    I'm a little confused about the Middle paragraph since I'm pretty sure I didn't mention possession on County property but at least it did mention that they will add the sections I noted to the list of "conflict with state law".


    Thank you Dave for letting me know who it had to go to. The commissioners sent it to the Prosecuting attorneys so they were definitely the right people to go to.
    Here is another little bit of information....I went through the same issue with Pierce County Council and Parks...The Council changed the ordinance to come into compliance, but a nearly a year out the signage was still not changed....(it now has been done)....

    The Council member found some funding that the Parks folks did not know that was available...If you want to take it to its conclusion, you might ask your contact there if there is any budget through another function that can take care of this.

    Dear JT 59,
    I have done some research on the sign issue and there is money in the current budget for the Pierce County Fire Arms Commission to replace/add signs, which is part of their directive.

    Because Public Works does not handle them they were most likely unaware of the fund availability.


    Good luck
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •