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Thread: Carry on WA University and College Campus'

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Carry on WA University and College Campus'

    I am sure that this must have been discussed in the past. My questions are:

    The majority of the campus codes that I have researched that prohibt firearms seem directed at the students.

    What if your a visitor (not a student guest)?

    What if you work "on" campus, but not in relation to any thing with the University?

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/

    Most appear to say that the worst that will happen is being trespassed if you refuse to do something (like stop carrying).

    What if it is an extension campus, with no housing and no "regular" students or classes?
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    I am sure that this must have been discussed in the past. My questions are:

    The majority of the campus codes that I have researched that prohibt firearms seem directed at the students.

    What if your a visitor (not a student guest)?

    What if you work "on" campus, but not in relation to any thing with the University?

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/

    Most appear to say that the worst that will happen is being trespassed if you refuse to do something (like stop carrying).

    What if it is an extension campus, with no housing and no "regular" students or classes?
    Not a Student, not subject to the "Student Rules". As I see it the worst the school could do is to trespass anyone carrying. That is if they become aware of the person's carrying. Sometimes Concealed Carry IS a tactical advantage.

    An extension campus, like one of the Strip Mall locations, is still school property while they control it.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    There was a young fella last fall it seems was attending a trade school in Lakewood posted on here that he was open carrying and then difficulties arose and then his post were removed and maybe even his login name changed. Wonder what the outcome was on this?.

    Sometimes discretion is the greater part of valor.
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    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
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    Regular Member Wolfebane's Avatar
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    I think I recall that story, where the teacher didn't have a problem, but another student did and wouldn't let it drop even when the school told him there was no problem.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Yes that is the one, I do not know what was up with the student but nothing has been said since, am wondering what the outcome was.
    Did he continue to carry openly, concealed or not at all?
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member Wolfebane's Avatar
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    I wonder that as well, I can't seem to find the thread now.

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    I believe that was swatspyder. He was CC and someone happened to notice it. The college has no policy against carry, the one student made a huge fuss and moved to a different class, prof didn't seem to have a problem. Bear in mind that's hearsay, I haven't heard an update.
    Quote Originally Posted by SayWhat View Post

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    Regular Member j2l3's Avatar
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    My wife works on the UW campus. The campus police told her that they would arrest someone who was armed and charge them with weapons violations.

    When I told her that, while they may do that, the charges would not stick, she wanted to argue that the police told her so and they wouldn't lie to people.

    Sooooo...... I put this together for her. She learned alot about asking the police things...

    Remember, this applies to the University of Washington, but you can be sure, it will pretty much apply to all Washignton State colleges and universities equally.

    IANAL


    Reading the actual WAC 478 it lists conduct on campus.

    478-124-020 lists prohibited conduct, one of which is possession of weapons on campus.

    478-124-030 lists sanctions for violations.

    (1) Any person while on the university campus who willfully refuses the request of a uniformed campus police officer to desist from conduct prohibited by these rules may be required by such officer to leave such premises.

    (2) Disciplinary action which may result in dismissal from the university will be initiated against faculty, staff or students who violate these rules, in accordance with the applicable disciplinary codes or other appropriate due process procedures.

    (3) Sanctions which may be imposed against faculty are set forth in the University of Washington Handbook, Volume II, Chapter 25, Sections 25-51 and 25-71.

    (4) Sanctions which may be imposed against students are set forth in WAC 478-120-040.

    (5) Sanctions which may be imposed against classified staff are set forth in the relevant University of Washington labor contract for contract-classified staff, and in Title 357 WAC and applicable university policy for classified nonunion staff.

    (6) Sanctions which may be imposed against the professional staff are set forth in the University of Washington Professional Staff Program.

    (7) Violation of any of the above regulations may also constitute violation of the criminal laws or ordinances of the city of Seattle, State of Washington, or the United States and may subject a violator to criminal sanctions in addition to any sanctions imposed by the university.


    Nowhere are criminal penalties mentioned, because there are none. Staff and students can be sanctioned. Anyone else can be asked to leave. Refusal then would fall under criminal trespass statutes.

    Laws do not tell us what we can do, they tell us what we cannot do. If there is no law against something, then it is by default, legal activity.

    Going a step further:

    RCW 9.41.280 Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities – penalty – exceptions

    (1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:


    This RCW doesn’t apply to the university because it is not a primary or secondary school.

    RCW 9.41.300 Weapons prohibited in certain places – Local laws and ordinances – Exceptions – Penalty.

    Nowhere in this RCW does it mention schools at all, let alone universities. Therefore it also does not apply.


    Therefore, there is no criminal penalty for possession of a firearm on campus. There are sanctions against students and staff, but not on other citizens other than asked to leave and then charged with criminal trespass if they refused to leave campus when directed by the campus police.

    Technically, Seattle PD cannot ask one to leave the campus for weapons possession. The WAC says specifically a uniformed campus police officer must make the request.
    Last edited by j2l3; 05-31-2011 at 07:09 PM.
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    And then again, I am of the personal opinion that they cannot even charge you with tresspass, because the areas of campus a non-student would be one would be "public" (like grounds, library, museum, botanic gardens) and they cannot control citizens in Public areas beyond state law.

    Personally, I also do not think they could prevail sanctioning professional staff either.

    BTW: The WACs for WSU, TESC, Western, Central and Eastern are all different. I do not remember reading anything about professional staff in WSU's WAC. Could be wrong, but I looked there. More interested in WSU personally. There is a prohibition against student carry at WSU, but all they can do is kick you out of school or hold your transcript until you sue them...then I think they would loose there too.

    However, I don't know of any student that would risk that just to prove a point.

    Can't find it right now, but UW claims they have the no guns policy for student safety, however there have been two big studies, one by a group from Harvard, the other by a group from UW that were initially designed to support that "safety of the students" claims, but both studies came up negative. The UW study even made the statement thet they were surprised at the findings, but "No Guns" policies do not make a campus safer. I'll find them again, I hope. when I do I'll post them.
    Last edited by hermannr; 06-01-2011 at 03:15 AM.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Uw wac 478-124-020

    I thought I would put this argument as a seperate post: I did the underlines

    For the UW: General Prohibited conduct:

    (1) In order to safeguard the right of every citizen to criticize and to seek meaningful change, each individual has an obligation to respect the rights of all members of the university community. (2) In order to assure those rights to all members of the university community and to maintain a peaceful atmosphere in which the university may continue to make its special contribution to society, the following types of conduct are hereby prohibited on or in property either owned, controlled or operated by the university which is used or set aside for university purposes, hereinafter referred to as the university campus:

    (a) Conduct which intentionally and substantially obstructs or disrupts teaching or freedom of movement or other lawful activities on the university campus;

    (b) Physical abuse of any person or conduct which is intended unlawfully to threaten imminent bodily harm or to endanger the health or safety of any person on the university campus;

    (c) Malicious damage to or malicious misuse of university property, or the property of any person where such property is located on the university campus;

    (d) Refusal to comply with any lawful order to leave the university campus or any portion thereof;

    (e) Possession or use of firearms, explosives, dangerous chemicals or other dangerous weapons or instrumentalities on the university campus, except for authorized university purposes, unless prior written approval has been obtained from the university chief of police, or any other person designated by the president of the university; (f) Unlawful possession, use, distribution, or manufacture of alcohol or controlled substances (as defined in chapter 69.50 RCW) on the university campus or during university-sponsored activities;

    (g) Intentionally inciting others to engage immediately in any of the conduct prohibited herein, which incitement leads directly to such conduct. (Inciting is that advocacy which prepares the group addressed for imminent action and steels it to the conduct prohibited herein.)

    Now, how come the Regents feel they can prohibit weapons? At the bottom of teh page you will find reference to the WAC they reference as their authority. In this case, WAC 28b.20.130 (and I add (1))

    Sow what does 28b.20.130 (1) say the Regents can do?

    "(1) To have full control of the university and its property of various kinds, except as otherwise provided by law.

    So what does 9.41 say???? this is why I said I don't even think they can enforce this on their students and staff, assuming someone wants to go through the hassel of a legal suit. Or maybe a state senator or congressman could ask for a AG's opinion???? but IMHO, I think the Regents overstepped their commision here.

    There is no specific exemption to state preemption of firearms law for the Universities, so they do not have a leg to stand on.
    Last edited by hermannr; 06-01-2011 at 03:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    And then again, I am of the personal opinion that they cannot even charge you with tresspass, because the areas of campus a non-student would be one would be "public" (like grounds, library, museum, botanic gardens) and they cannot control citizens in Public areas beyond state law.
    Great point. I tend to agree but it would probably have to go to court.

    Personally, I also do not think they could prevail sanctioning professional staff either.
    The WA Supreme Court covered that in the Cherry case (a bus driver was fired for bringing a firearm to work). They ruled that preemption does not cover employment policies.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    As far as I know, colleges can set their own policies. However, it gets into a gray area when they're publicly funded. This is where the AG needs to chime in.

    I will say, however, that what they cannot see they cannot enforce...
    Quote Originally Posted by SayWhat View Post

    Shooters before hooters.

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    the state cannot premept itself..... If it passes a WAC to ban firearms on state schools, that is legal, and they are within their right to do so

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    RCW's are "law" passed by the legislature.

    WAC are administrative code, that is written by a department within the government, that are supposed to impliment an RCW,

    WACs are not "law", they are administrative rules (Washington Administrative Code) more or less loosely based on, and to impliment an RCW, or by right granted by an RCW.

    As pointed out...the RCW says what the UW Regents can or cannot do, the Regents take these RCW's and make a set of rules, as they see fit, within the authorization of the RCWs. ""Except as provided by law" That means they cannot impliment a "rule" that is in conflict with any RCW. The RCW 9.41.290 pre-empts the Regents from making any firearms rules that can affect anyone that is of the general population. Whether they can make rules that effect students and employees, that is for a court to determine.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    RCW's are "law" passed by the legislature.

    WAC are administrative code, that is written by a department within the government, that are supposed to impliment an RCW,

    WACs are not "law", they are administrative rules (Washington Administrative Code) more or less loosely based on, and to impliment an RCW, or by right granted by an RCW.
    Actually, WAC's have the weight of law according to the State.

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/

    Washington Administrative Code (WAC)

    Regulations of executive branch agencies are issued by authority of statutes. Like legislation and the Constitution, regulations are a source of primary law in Washington State. The WAC codifies the regulations and arranges them by subject or agency.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    However, if a WAC conflicts with and RCW, the RCW wins.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    However, if a WAC conflicts with and RCW, the RCW wins.
    Usually its a lawyer that wins. WAC conflicts are few thanks to the overpaid "Code Revisers" that are paid at taxpayer expense.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jddssc121 View Post
    the state cannot premept itself..... If it passes a WAC to ban firearms on state schools, that is legal, and they are within their right to do so
    I really don't understand why people keep saying this! Ok, so the state can't preempt itself. That's because they already made the laws. Laws made by the state should be followed by the state don't you think. If the firearms laws for the state are already spelled out in the RCW, why in the world would they be allowed to make more laws that completely contradict what the previous laws (that everyone else in the state has to follow) enacted. If it is state law then it's STATE law. Not city, town, county, or other municipality law.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    I really don't understand why people keep saying this! Ok, so the state can't preempt itself. That's because they already made the laws. Laws made by the state should be followed by the state don't you think. If the firearms laws for the state are already spelled out in the RCW, why in the world would they be allowed to make more laws that completely contradict what the previous laws (that everyone else in the state has to follow) enacted. If it is state law then it's STATE law. Not city, town, county, or other municipality law.
    yes, RCW 9.41.290 says only the state gets to make the rules. Not cities, counties, etc.

    Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.

    WAC is another set of STATE rules. The WAC is not contradicting RCW, it's simply more restrictive (and since it's a STATE rule, that's considered permissible)


    Don't shoot the messenger give a lawyer $100 for his time and ask him....
    Last edited by jddssc121; 06-02-2011 at 01:54 AM.

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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    There was a young fella last fall it seems was attending a trade school in Lakewood posted on here that he was open carrying and then difficulties arose and then his post were removed and maybe even his login name changed. Wonder what the outcome was on this?.

    Sometimes discretion is the greater part of valor.
    Lol, my alias changed? Good one BigDave!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfebane View Post
    I think I recall that story, where the teacher didn't have a problem, but another student did and wouldn't let it drop even when the school told him there was no problem.
    There was no problem with the school, and no contact by myself with the student involved. It did create some good conversations, the administrators and security viewed their own policies, the RCW, and came to the conclusion that unless there is a problem with me (which my instructor(s), yes multiple, vouched for me that there wasn't), then there was nothing to be done. Also, I found out that there were a few administrators that were CC daily.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Yes that is the one, I do not know what was up with the student but nothing has been said since, am wondering what the outcome was.
    Did he continue to carry openly, concealed or not at all?
    I continued to carry concealed, my friends were all aware of myself carrying throughout the year and were fine with it. Two of them were veterans of the Army. One thing you and everyone else should know is that up until this incident, students that I interacted with daily were unaware that I carried concealed. It was one guy who was ex-military that recognized the bulge, and had some issue with firearms in college (blah... blah... federal school law... blah...), and created more of a problem for himself than he did for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfebane View Post
    I wonder that as well, I can't seem to find the thread now.
    Thread was removed by the admin upon my request.

    Quote Originally Posted by .45ACPaddy View Post
    I believe that was swatspyder. He was CC and someone happened to notice it. The college has no policy against carry, the one student made a huge fuss and moved to a different class, prof didn't seem to have a problem. Bear in mind that's hearsay, I haven't heard an update.
    Update is above, thank you for posting for everyone the information that was generally known.


    *Edit to add... I graduated without further incident, received my Associate Degree, continued my internship in the Information Technology department, and four weeks after graduating, I was employed in an IT department for a small company.
    Last edited by swatspyder; 06-02-2011 at 03:54 AM.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jddssc121 View Post


    Don't shoot the messenger give a lawyer $100 for his time and ask him....
    What kind of lawyer would you get for $100 today. That usually covers the "Hello" and a handshake for most.
    Last edited by amlevin; 06-02-2011 at 09:30 AM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    What kind of lawyer would you get for $100 today. That usually covers the "Hello" and a handshake for most.
    That would be My Cousin Vinney.

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