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Thread: If not breaking any law...

  1. #1
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    Post If not breaking any law...

    Scenario:

    I'm walking down the street, OCing, and an officer decides to pull over and harass me about it. Asks me for ID when I have not broken any laws and am not driving a motor vehicle. Under the 4th Amendment, I am legally secure in my person, effects, papers, and home.

    Do I still need to show ID to an officer even though I am not breaking any laws. AND is it legal to OC without ID? I'm not looking for answers such as "You should have your id regardless to not complicate the issue."

    This is not nazi germany, its America. I have the right to not be harassed by the police.

    I see alot of videos on Youtube about people OCing and stating that they have committed no crime, broken no law and say they are not required to show ID in that case. I just want to know if that is the case or not. Thanks!!!

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    There is no requirement under state law to have a license or carry ID when OCing. OCing, by itself, does not constitute probable cause or reasonable and articulable suspicion for a police officer to stop you. Although the facts are not quite similar to your suggested scenario--my client was in a place he did not intend to quickly leave--you may be interested in the pending case of Campbell v. City of Wheeling, Civil Action No. 5:11-cv-69-FPS (N.D. W.Va. filed May 11, 2011).
    James M. "Jim" Mullins, Jr., Esq.
    Admitted to practice in West Virginia and Florida.

    Founder, Past President, Treasurer, and General Counsel, West Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Any update on this case?

    I posted about it over on PAFOA and there's really a lot of interest over on that forum as well:
    Here's the link:
    http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...ml#post1628927
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Ask yourselves.... "How many times in the last 5 years have I Needed to produce I.D. that I didn't already know about beforehand?"

    For me the answer was "Once at the airline, a few times at the bank to make withdrawals, that time I voted, and oh wait... I knew I'd need my I.D before I went to those places. Umm... Never."

    My driving license stays safely ensconced in the visor of my car. Everywhere I've gone that I might need it, I've had to drive to anyway.

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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Ask yourselves.... "How many times in the last 5 years have I Needed to produce I.D. that I didn't already know about beforehand?"

    For me the answer was "Once at the airline, a few times at the bank to make withdrawals, that time I voted, and oh wait... I knew I'd need my I.D before I went to those places. Umm... Never."

    My driving license stays safely ensconced in the visor of my car. Everywhere I've gone that I might need it, I've had to drive to anyway.

    True.

    Occasionally I have to show ID when getting a prescription filled.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    The more relevant question is this:

    Does WV have existing statute that makes presenting an ID necessary?

    If not, there is no need to.

    In fact, you might not even need to "identify" yourself in WV: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes

    West Virginia does not show up as a state that has a relevant "Stop and Identify" statute, so according to Terry v Ohio, Hiibel v NV, and Kolendor v Lawson, you don't need to identify yourself.





    Quote Originally Posted by Josh P View Post
    Scenario:

    I'm walking down the street, OCing, and an officer decides to pull over and harass me about it. Asks me for ID when I have not broken any laws and am not driving a motor vehicle. Under the 4th Amendment, I am legally secure in my person, effects, papers, and home.

    Do I still need to show ID to an officer even though I am not breaking any laws. AND is it legal to OC without ID? I'm not looking for answers such as "You should have your id regardless to not complicate the issue."

    This is not nazi germany, its America. I have the right to not be harassed by the police.

    I see alot of videos on Youtube about people OCing and stating that they have committed no crime, broken no law and say they are not required to show ID in that case. I just want to know if that is the case or not. Thanks!!!



    [IANAL, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night]
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  7. #7
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    West Virginia has no Stop-and-Identify law.
    James M. "Jim" Mullins, Jr., Esq.
    Admitted to practice in West Virginia and Florida.

    Founder, Past President, Treasurer, and General Counsel, West Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
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    I don't think anyone should have a problem with supplying an officer with their ID. The only information I give to an officer is what is on my drivers license and whether it is correct. If i'm driving i supply them with insurance and/or registration. Other than that they don't need to know anything about me because it's not their business. I have opened carried probably like 50 times or so in Hedgesville and Martinsburg and Berkeley Springs, and I have been within 2 or 3 feet of cops on several occasions. The one time Ii was in the store with 4 officers who were getting food, so most of them didn't care or knew my rights enough not to violate them. But if an officer wanted an id I would have no problem showing it to them and let them know the information is correct, but if they ask why you carry tell them that's information your are not legally obligated to give. If you think you are being harrassed make sure you document everything and obtain the officer's name.
    Last edited by lameduck; 06-20-2011 at 06:36 PM.

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lameduck View Post
    I don't think anyone should have a problem with supplying an officer with their ID. The only information I give to an officer is what is on my drivers license and whether it is correct. If i'm driving i supply them with insurance and/or registration. Other than that they don't need to know anything about me because it's not their business. I have opened carried probably like 50 times or so in Hedgesville and Martinsburg and Berkeley Springs, and I have been within 2 or 3 feet of cops on several occasions. The one time Ii was in the store with 4 officers who were getting food, so most of them didn't care or knew my rights enough not to violate them. But if an officer wanted an id I would have no problem showing it to them and let them know the information is correct, but if they ask why you carry tell them that's information your are not legally obligated to give. If you think you are being harrassed make sure you document everything and obtain the officer's name.
    The concern many of us have about being asked/told to show ID when there is no legal authorization for the LEO to ask/tell us to show ID is just that - the law clearly states that the cop cannot do that absent certain specific precursor circumstances/events.

    Allowing the LEO to ask for/demand ID when he has no legal authorization to do so creates a situation wherein he begins to believe that although he has no legal authorization he can get away with it because he can intimidare folks int doing so. THen he starts believing that folks have to show him ID just because he wants them to.

    This is what is known as the beginning of the slippery slope. You might have heard of it when expressed a bit differently - give them an inch and they'll take a mile.

    The way real life operates is bad enough when we who are not LEOs are required to know and obey both the letter and spirit of tyhe law but the courts increasingly allow LEOs to get away (via qualified immunity rulings) with neither knowing nor following the letter or the spirit of the law. Yes, what is good for the goose should be good for the gander, but that's not how it is in real life.

    BTW - welcome to OCDO. You will probably notice that even the most calm, placid and easy-going among us tend to get a mite bit wound up over that slippery slope thing, and especially as it applies to 4th and 5th Amendment issues. Funny, but it seems to be at the core of supporting the "rights" part of gun rights.

    stay safe.

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    Skidmark,

    Since when is it unauthorized or illegal for a LEO to ASK for ID? It's not illegal at all for any reason. A LEO can ASK anyone anything, it's called a consensual encounter.

    To the OP- you first need to check into any state or local ordinances regarding stop and identify laws. Second you need to read up on probable cause, reasonable suspicion, and consensual encounters. There are many case laws establishing exactly what you are referring to and what's legal. And lastly, don't fully trust the legal advice of anonymous posters on a website who most likely don't have a law degree or have ever seen a courtroom. Have a good one and be safe.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Skidmark,

    Since when is it unauthorized or illegal for a LEO to ASK for ID? It's not illegal at all for any reason. A LEO can ASK anyone anything, it's called a consensual encounter.

    To the OP- you first need to check into any state or local ordinances regarding stop and identify laws. Second you need to read up on probable cause, reasonable suspicion, and consensual encounters. There are many case laws establishing exactly what you are referring to and what's legal. And lastly, don't fully trust the legal advice of anonymous posters on a website who most likely don't have a law degree or have ever seen a courtroom. Have a good one and be safe.
    Nova, Nova, Nova,

    A police officer in uniform or displaying their badge of authority, or by tone of voice usually described as "command voice" has, in numerous SCOTUS decisions, been determined to be acting in a manner whereby an ordinary person would reasonably believe that they must obey.

    You can discuss consensual contacts all you want. Yes, I believe in them but that is because I am not an ordinary person and therefore do not believe co-ps can do half the stuff cops believe they ought to be allowed to get away with.

    But to get to the very heart - the dark and dangerous heart - of your position -- You know very well that unless you have RAS/PC you cannot demand to see a person's ID. Therefore you are going to couch your attempt as a "request". Now let's go look at why you are "asking" to see ID in the first place - what use are you going to make of the information once you get it, and how far beyond your eyes does the information go? Does the information get written down in a field contact report? Does that report get entered into any computerized database? Either way, who else gets to see that report? Why should I want/allow the fact that I was at point "X" and a certain time to be recorded unless there is some direct nexus to the investigation of a crime that either was or is currently being committed, or the suspicion (supported by RAS) that a crime is about to be committed? Or to put it in terms that even a street cop might not have difficulty understanding: allowing cops to build up a database of any sort that involves information on where citizens were, and possibly what they were doing, while not under investigation/ suspicion of a criminal act, is anathama to the concepts of freedom of person and of unfettered movement. We in the USA do not have a practice of cops asking "Papers, please" or of citizens submitting to such requests. Even the newbie seems to know deep down that it's "not right, fitting or proper" to have to show a pass to be out on the street. And yes, being asked/ordered to show ID is in fact requesting/ordering that citizen to produce a pass.

    I've got a question for you -- how do you react when the citizen who must submit to your legal order to produce ID (because the circumstances are such that the law allows you to demand ID) decides to do so by stating his name and residence address rather than show you any document? You are aware that, among other things, they have no obligation to repeat the information, nor to spell out any words you may not be familiar with, aren't you? My name is often misspelled. Unless it involves my receiving money or other valuables I an not ordinarily bothered by that occurrance and thus have no compelling desire to correct anyone's error. Nor, in an attempt to prevent a misspelling do I spell my name out to anyone unless the previously mentioned conditions apply. Are your ears good enough to decipher the spelling of my name? Is your memory good enough to catch my address and record it properly? Because even if you have the authority to demand my ID I am under no compulsion to provide it over and over again just because of your failings. And yes, I am more than willing to suffer the inconvenience of being falsely arrested and jailed as part of my resistance to repeated demands to repeat information I have already provided to the full extent the law says I must. Others may or may not be as willing as I am - but that's not germane either way.

    As to your comment about accepting "legal advice of anonymous posters on a website who most likely don't have a law degree or have ever seen a courtroom" : 1) one does not need to have been awarded a J.D. to be a competent lawyer. And J.D.s still need to pass the bar exam and be admitted to charge a fee for their time and knowledge, which is the only practical distinction between a lawyer and an attorney (sorry USER); 2) the now-Governor, when he was AG, stated on several occassions that one does not need to be an attorney to give legal advice; and 3) I'll be willing to bet I have been in courtrooms in more roles than you have, as if that makes a whit of differnce.

    Now, getting back on track -- I'd really like to read your explanation of why a cop would request ID from someone in a situation where there is no RAS/PC of a crime committed, being committed, or about to be committed or the investigation of the same (as you see, I'm not arguing against your seeking information on how to contact possible witnesses to said criminal activity). If you would be so kind, I'd also like to read your exposition on the uses that information will or may be put to by both you the officer collecting it and by anyone else who is authorized to access it. Just so you are completely informed and thus can make a decision that will be in your best interests and not detrimental to your person, you possessions, or your freedom or (present or future) employability status, this is merely a request and you are under neither legal nor moral compulsion to provide any response whatsoever.

    (BTW, has anybody ever had a cop make a request and so clearly state both the range of possible consequences to andwering their request and the absence of compulsion? Can I get a show of hands? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?)

    stay safe.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Skidmark,

    Since when is it unauthorized or illegal for a LEO to ASK for ID? It's not illegal at all for any reason. A LEO can ASK anyone anything, it's called a consensual encounter.

    To the OP- you first need to check into any state or local ordinances regarding stop and identify laws. Second you need to read up on probable cause, reasonable suspicion, and consensual encounters. There are many case laws establishing exactly what you are referring to and what's legal. And lastly, don't fully trust the legal advice of anonymous posters on a website who most likely don't have a law degree or have ever seen a courtroom. Have a good one and be safe.
    It's not illegal or unauthorized for an officer to ASK for I.D.
    He's welcome to ask my name, address, date of birth, whatever he likes.
    He's welcome to ask what I think of the weather, or if I've been drinking.
    He's welcome to ask if I want to go back to his place and *** ******* together.

    .... but he hasn't the authority to demand, or to get a 'happy ending'.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-24-2011 at 09:25 AM.

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    Skidmark,

    Please cite one of those cases or laws saying a cop in uniform can't ask for ID because he has a command presence. You are wrong. Well in VA, LEOs can't demand ID absent RAS or PC, some states have ordinances with other criteria.
    How do I react to someone refusing to give ID absent RAS or PC? I could care less.
    It's a job. I don't get paid for each person I stop or how many crimes I solve. I am protecting tax payer's personal property and safety. I get paid ok, but considering I have a degree and more education and other skills/qualities that I could make much more doing something else. My only reward is holding criminals accountable, and trust me there are some real bad people out there.
    My dept does maintain a database of everyone who is ID'ed to include personal info, friends, description, etc. That database not only helps catch criminals but also helps to contact them if thy are a victim or other issues. And to be honest, most people provide ID upon request because I am respectful and almost always I can find out their info anyway if they refuse (run tags, address, other officers might know them,etc) and I can still take a picture of them if I believe it's necessary.
    Last edited by NovaCop10; 06-24-2011 at 11:18 AM. Reason: Auto spell doesn't work well

  14. #14
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    It's not illegal or unauthorized for an officer to ASK for I.D.
    He's welcome to ask my name, address, date of birth, whatever he likes.
    He's welcome to ask what I think of the weather, or if I've been drinking.
    He's welcome to ask if I want to go back to his place and *** ******* together.

    .... but he hasn't the authority to demand, or to get a 'happy ending'.
    Dang, i don't think i would have taking it that far,

    SKIDMARK, with all do respect to you, i think NOVACOP10's warning was a good one. you should always verify everything dealing with legal matters.

    i have always been bothered by how much powers gov. officials have or think they have, and this web site has sent me in some of the right directions
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

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  15. #15
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    "Sir, is that a request, or an order?"
    "I don't give a damn which you want to make it; so long as it gets Done!"

    "...It is her Majesty's pleasure that ten thousand weight of the said wax be delivered to her messenger on her behalf..."
    You think anyone said, "She wants wax? Well, I wanted a pony for my birthday. Tough teats to Her."

    Putting a gun to someone's head and asking them very nicely, "Would you give me all your money, pretty-please?", doesn't make it a request for charity instead of a robbery.



    Learned long ago that you can phrase an order as a request, it doesn't make it any less of a command.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-24-2011 at 01:04 PM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Skidmark,

    Please cite one of those cases or laws saying a cop in uniform can't ask for ID because he has a command presence. You are wrong. Well in VA, LEOs can't demand ID absent RAS or PC, some states have ordinances with other criteria.
    As I mentioned, my access to Lexis-Nexus is curently down. I have made a note to myself to get youy the citations, but in the meanwhile would you mind holding your breath?

    As I'm sure you are aware, having been to all sorts of training, "command presence" is in fact one of the elements of detaining/arresting. One does not need to tell the person "you are under arrest" for the courts to find that they were, without question, in fact detained/under arrest because of the attitude, demeanor, tone of voice and/or other behaviors of the police officer. If, by some miracle, you did not get that training please let me know soyour employer can rectify your present ignorance.


    How do I react to someone refusing to give ID absent RAS or PC? I could care less.
    It's a job. I don't get paid for each person I stop or how many crimes I solve. I am protecting tax payer's personal property and safety.
    Strange, but the Supreme Court has stated five different times that you in fact are NOT protecting taxpeyer's personal property and safety. There should be no need for me to cite any of those cases - they should be so well known to police and the general public who have nonimal awareness of such matters, as to be spouted off by rote.

    If you are not aware of the specific duties and responsibilities of the position you mighht benefit from retaining and remedial instruction. I hope you get that taken care of soon, if in fact it is needed.


    I get paid ok, but considering I have a degree and more education and other skills/qualities that I could make much more doing something else. My only reward is holding criminals accountable, and trust me there are some real bad people out there.
    My dept does maintain a database of everyone who is ID'ed to include personal info, friends, description, etc. That database not only helps catch criminals but also helps to contact them if thy are a victim or other issues.
    So you are admitting that your department maintains personal identifying information without complying with the various federal and state laws/regulations relating to annual notification of persons whose information is contained in such databaes(s)? Perhaps it would be instructive to have the US Attorneyt and the Attorney General look into this for the purposes of both correcting failures to comply with law and determining what penalties might be collected.

    And to be honest, most people provide ID upon request because I am respectful and almost always I can find out their info anyway if they refuse (run tags, address, other officers might know them,etc) and I can still take a picture of them if I believe it's necessary.
    [color=blue]So why do you even bother "asking" folks to provide ID? Could it be that you know that "running tags" without proper legal authorization - not merely being a LEO but meeting the circumstances/end use requirements - could land you in both court and the unemployment line (but not eligible to collect benefits due to termination for cause). And of course you can always take a picture of them if you choose to. However, there are limits on what you can do with that picture if it was taken for official purposes -- which you are sugesting is why you take pictures -- or if you seek protection by saying it was for personal use. I'm willing to bet an inquiry into the disposition of pictures you have taken would reveal at least some violations of law/regulation.

    stay safe.

  17. #17
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    Skidmark,

    Why do I ask for ID? Well sometimes there is little suspicion maybe not enough to stop. Maybe they are with other people I know involved in criminal activity regularily, etc. Why don't I just sit in my car all day and take reports over the phone? It's called interaction and getting to know the community.
    Databases are illegal? How so? Question my training, stating actions by me and my dept illegal? You are making too many assumptions. Can you take my photo in public? Sure you can. So there are rules that I can't take yours? (according to you and your phantom case laws).

    Once again you are hinting that all interaction with police is a seizure, and youre incorrect. Police can ask you anything although they need RAS to demand, stop you.
    Last edited by NovaCop10; 06-24-2011 at 06:47 PM.

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    Skidmark,

    The only requirement for running tags is for law enforcement purposes. So therefore it's easy to articulate you ran ANY tag to make sure it's properly registered and not stolen.

    And let me point out that I have never and most likely would never ask someone who is merely openly carrying for ID. I am just explaining consensual encounters and measures taken.
    Last edited by NovaCop10; 06-24-2011 at 07:26 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Skidmark,

    Why do I ask for ID? Well sometimes there is little suspicion maybe not enough to stop. Maybe they are with other people I know involved in criminal activity regularily, etc. Why don't I just sit in my car all day and take reports over the phone? It's called interaction and getting to know the community.
    Databases are illegal? How so? Question my training, stating actions by me and my dept illegal? You are making too many assumptions. Can you take my photo in public? Sure you can. So there are rules that I can't take yours? (according to you and your phantom case laws).

    Once again you are hinting that all interaction with police is a seizure, and youre incorrect. Police can ask you anything although they need RAS to demand, stop you.
    That is what started most of this discussion. The "ask" done in an interview stance (or whatever 'command' posture/demeanor is used) is designed to make a request 'appear' to be a demand. Why? Because to demand is to stop. If it is a request, it obviously has not met the test for a stop. The LE will expect to get away with this due to citizen ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Allowing the LEO to ask for/demand ID when he has no legal authorization to do so creates a situation wherein he begins to believe that although he has no legal authorization he can get away with it because he can intimidare folks int doing so. THen he starts believing that folks have to show him ID just because he wants them to.
    Just like that.
    Last edited by wrightme; 06-24-2011 at 09:45 PM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Skidmark,

    The only requirement for running tags is for law enforcement purposes. So therefore it's easy to articulate you ran ANY tag to make sure it's properly registered and not stolen.

    And that's point, set and match, folks. Nova can (and probably has on many occassions, and will continue to do so on many more occassions) articulated that he has requested that plates be run "for law enforcement purposes. In spite of his statement above that if someone "chooses" not to give him ID documents he can run the tags in order to get the information anyway.

    And let me point out that I have never and most likely would never ask someone who is merely openly carrying for ID.

    Just what would it take for you to ask someone "merely openly carrying" for ID? I do appreciate, though, your honesty in admitting that you have already decided that there is at least one circumstance in which you would in fact seek ID from someone who has presented no indication of any wrong-doing. "Now all we need to do is negotiate price." (Hope the reference is not too vague for you. PM me if you need explication.)


    I am just explaining consensual encounters and measures taken.

    Sorry, but I see it differently - you are explaining how you want us to see things and are trying to obfuscate the difference between consensual and non-consensual based on the "intent" of the officer when you know darned good and well that the deciding factor is the perception of that mythical creature known as "a reasonable person" and how they would interpret the situation.
    stay safe.
    Last edited by skidmark; 06-25-2011 at 06:22 AM. Reason: typos

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    Oh so now an interview stance will invalidate a consensual encounter? Wow I am amazed by the legal bs I hear on this site. It's about time I give up and move along... Let you all believe in fairytales.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Oh so now an interview stance will invalidate a consensual encounter? Wow I am amazed by the legal bs I hear on this site. It's about time I give up and move along... Let you all believe in fairytales.
    Say what?

    How do you get that from the responses you received?


    Do you deny that LE will seek information, knowing they do not have RAS, and ask questions in a manner designed to 'encourage' responses by using posture and citizen ignorance?

    What "legal bs" do you see in the responses?
    Last edited by wrightme; 06-26-2011 at 06:06 PM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    It was in response to wrightme. He stated an interview stance is done as a demand indicating a non consensual encounter.

    Of course it's totality of circumstances to include using lights, how many officers, weapons drawn etc. but we aren't talking about that. We are talking about a LEO asking people questions and it's a seizure.

  24. #24
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Please don't take this as bashing, most of the encounters i have with LEOs are very positive. i am just stating a fact. my intent is to let the OP know that it is the job of LEOs to charge someone with something. they can and will use everything you say against you. and they have took a lot of training to do this. i have always been amazed at how "give me your ID" is considered asking in LEO speak
    tricks are to engage you in a contact, usually using the the ID as an excuse, knowing that most people would not know their right ( under the 4th amendment). surrounding you so that you might bump into one of them, cussing you so you'll respond negatively, lie to you, even acting friendly to get you to say something off guard
    know the laws where you are, learn the responses that are on this site and others, keep your cool. i always like to add be friendly, fair, but firm.

    BTW, anything i say can be Horse droppings and not worth a hill of beans
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    It was in response to wrightme. He stated an interview stance is done as a demand indicating a non consensual encounter.
    Then you misunderstood.

    An interview stance along with an "ask" presents a consensual question, in a manner that plays off on the citizen's view that "it is a cop, I need to answer."

    I did NOT state that an interview stance is done as a demand indicating a non-consensual encounter.

    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10

    Of course it's totality of circumstances to include using lights, how many officers, weapons drawn etc. but we aren't talking about that. We are talking about a LEO asking people questions and it's a seizure.
    No, I was talking about how an LEO asking people questions is NOT a seizure, but is done in a manner designed to "encourage" response without going beyond consensual encounter.



    A request done in a consensual encounter in this "interview stance" would definitely place a level of coercion into the impression of a citizen who believe LE DO have the power to "ask" a citizen to show ID, even though that is not required. As I said, playing off the ignorance of the citizen to coerce responses during a consensual encounter. YOU might not do that, but can you deny that OTHER LE do?
    Last edited by wrightme; 06-28-2011 at 02:42 PM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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