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Thread: If I answer zero to these questions should I carry?

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    If I answer zero to these questions should I carry?

    A Friend of mine(Who is an english major) wrote me after I told her I open carry. Tonia wrote: "I realize you have a right to bear arms, but just a few questions: 1 - How many people (outside of the military and law enforcement) do you know personally, that have successfully defended themselves with a gun. 2 - How many people do you know have been subject to a violent attack, and could have successfully defended themselves had they owned a gun? (mind you, the gun has to be within reach to be successful). And 3 - How many people do/did you know that have been seriously injured/killed by a gunshot?"

    I know the answer to her questions 1 and 3 for me personally would be zero. Could someone help me here? How should I respond? I don't want to feel like I have no reason to carry when I know how I feel but can't convey it. Any help would be appreciated thanks.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Every day that I come home alive, I have successfully defended myself with a gun.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The questions are argumentative distractions and not to the point.

    The point being the "once is enough." We do not expect to need protection, but rather chose to have the option so that if and when we are not the tailor made victim.

    Actually, I could list several in each category, but they are not pertinent. I cannot affect an outcome that has already occurred. My concern is not yesterday, but today - here and now.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Cool Exactly, Grape

    It is not the number of times you did not need a gun and had one, it is the one time you needed one and did not have it.

    The hard part is knowing when that one time will be, so hedge your bets.

    Unless you do know when that one time will be, in which case I suggest going to the Circle-K and buying a lottery ticket.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    I have fire extinguishers and smoke detectors in my home but my house has never caught fire. You have a spare tire in your car but have you had a flat?

    Firearms are in the same class. They are for emergencies that are not foreseen. Any other argument is as Grape said a distraction from the issue.

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    Thanks alot that helps!

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    Regular Member Hoplite's Avatar
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    One of my pet peeves is the tendency to lump together "police and military" for this sort of thing, but for the sake of argument, I'll answer her first question with a question:

    The percentage of LEOs and military personnel who ever fire a shot in anger, much less actually use a gun to defend themselves from violent attack is tiny; does that mean they don't need firearms?

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    "Past Performance is No Guarantee of Future Results"

    Ask her how many people she knows personally who have had their house burn down. If zero, does that mean she doesn't think anyone should have fire extinguishers?

    Ask her how many people she has known personally who were killed in a car accident. If zero, does that mean she doesn't see the need for seatbelts?

    As touched upon in subsequent posts... when she develops a 100% accurate ability to see the future, and she can guarantee that you will never need it, that's when you no longer have to carry a gun.

    The staggering illogic here makes my head hurt. It is obviously verifiable that some people are victims of violent crime, and through no fault of their own. Where is the logical connection between the fact that you might not happen to personally know any of them, and the chance that it will happen to you in the future?

    Ah, here's one... does she personally know anyone who has ever won the lottery? If not, then I guess she doesn't buy lottery tickets... because if she doesn't know them, then it doesn't happen, right? (Interestingly enough, I do know a guy who won a few hundred thousand a number of years ago... and in spite of that, I do not play the lottery... I see it as a tax on people who don't understand statistics... )

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    All three are personal questions that many if not most that would fall under 1-3 won't answer, or at least in a public forum. A few close friends may know but not the general public.

    Ask her if she's ever had fantasies of sex with her father or had an abortion or a lesbian relationship. I expect you'll get a "Mind your own Business" answer.

    Carry if you feel the need or just if you want to, but don't base it on the crosses others have to bear. It's not an academic game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    I have fire extinguishers and smoke detectors in my home but my house has never caught fire. You have a spare tire in your car but have you had a flat?

    Firearms are in the same class. They are for emergencies that are not foreseen. Any other argument is as Grape said a distraction from the issue.
    Oh, you're just one of those, "fire-extinguisher" nuts! You're just doing that to protect some abstract "right to bear fire-extinguishers!". We all know you secretly hope your house will catch fire, just so you can whip out your fire-extinguisher! We pray that no child gets ahold of your fire-extinguisher and whaps another child upside the head with it. Or, worse yet, decides to take it to school with him! And what if there really were a fire, why don't you just depend on the fire department, like any sensible person would?
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    oh, you're just one of those, "fire-extinguisher" nuts! You're just doing that to protect some abstract "right to bear fire-extinguishers!". We all know you secretly hope your house will catch fire, just so you can whip out your fire-extinguisher! we pray that no child gets ahold of your fire-extinguisher and whaps another child upside the head with it. Or, worse yet, decides to take it to school with him! And what if there really were a fire, why don't you just depend on the fire department, like any sensible person would?
    lol.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luv_jeeps View Post
    lol.
    Seconded.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Just don't get caught brandishing your fire-extinguisher...

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Every day that I come home alive, I have successfully defended myself with a gun.
    +1

    1 - How many people (outside of the military and law enforcement) do you know personally, that have successfully defended themselves with a gun. 2 - How many people do you know have been subject to a violent attack, and could have successfully defended themselves had they owned a gun? (mind you, the gun has to be within reach to be successful). And 3 - How many people do/did you know that have been seriously injured/killed by a gunshot?"
    Total BS, crime doesn't tell you when its going strike. That was just in the news about ODU, getting robbed.

    know personally
    No, but I hear so many stories from NRA and the internet.

    Thats like saying, I am not going to wear my seat belt because I am going to be fine.
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 06-02-2011 at 04:12 PM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sol View Post
    Just don't get caught brandishing your fire-extinguisher...
    Or worse - don't get caught pointing your finger while carrying a fire extinguisher even if it is holstered.
    http://deist.com/holster-for-12-oz-h...her-p-232.html
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Oh, you're just one of those, "fire-extinguisher" nuts! You're just doing that to protect some abstract "right to bear fire-extinguishers!". We all know you secretly hope your house will catch fire, just so you can whip out your fire-extinguisher! We pray that no child gets ahold of your fire-extinguisher and whaps another child upside the head with it. Or, worse yet, decides to take it to school with him! And what if there really were a fire, why don't you just depend on the fire department, like any sensible person would?
    lulz.

    Thank you for that. I'll keep that one for later.

  17. #17
    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    Seconded.
    Third.

    lol
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 06-02-2011 at 04:18 PM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

  18. #18
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    I would answer all question HONESTLY and the ask her for the same (respect) on just ONE question

    Regardless of your answers to her questions...Can she 100% GUARANTEE that you (or she) will never find yourselfs in a situation where carrying a firearm would save your life...

    Outdoorsma1
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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Oh, you're just one of those, "fire-extinguisher" nuts! You're just doing that to protect some abstract "right to bear fire-extinguishers!". We all know you secretly hope your house will catch fire, just so you can whip out your fire-extinguisher! We pray that no child gets ahold of your fire-extinguisher and whaps another child upside the head with it. Or, worse yet, decides to take it to school with him! And what if there really were a fire, why don't you just depend on the fire department, like any sensible person would?
    What if it were accidentally discharged because you didn't lock the trigger? Are you liable for leaving it within easy reach of your child?

    Too funny! I am an advocate of the emergency tools discussion, but rarely are people listening.
    Last edited by nuc65; 06-02-2011 at 05:31 PM.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

  20. #20
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    OK guys, I don't want to hijack this thread, but I DO have an observation that I want to throw in...

    We often use the "fire extinguisher in your house" argument in an attempt to strengthen people's understanding of why we carry. But it has been my experience that this argument ONLY makes sense to people who are already on our side, or at the very least, are sympathetic with our ideas of self-sufficiency and knowledge that "emergency responders" are REALLY just there to string the "caution tape" and take statements AFTER the SHTF...

    It has been my experience that the VAST majority of people who are strongly anti-2A are living in such complete denial of the dangers of the world, and in such blind nanny-state dependence on the non-existent promise of "rescue" by "authorities", that most of them don't have fire extinguishers in their kitchen either...

    You gotta understand the level of abject cluelessness and ostrich-like denial under which these people function.

    Although the "fire extinguisher" metaphor is a VERY illustrative one, I think that with most anti-2A people it doesn't hold much water, because they actually believe that the Fire Department is there to protect them from fires, just like they believe that the police will protect them from BGs...

    In other words, we may want to try a different metaphor, because it has been my experience that MOST of the sorts of folks who are vocally against OC (and CC) are so clueless about their personal safety that they don't even own a fire extinguisher...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 06-02-2011 at 09:12 PM.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    It has been my experience that the VAST majority of people who are anti-2A are living in such complete denial of the dangers of the world, and in such blind nanny-state dependence on the non-existent promise of "rescue" by "authorities", that most of them don't have fire extinguishers in their kitchen either it doesn't hold much water, because they actually believe that the Fire Department is there to protect them from fires, just like they believe that the police will protect them from BGs...

    In other words, we may want to try a different metaphor, because it has been my experience that MOST of the sorts of folks who are vocally against OC (and CC) are so clueless about their personal safety that they don't even own a fire extinguisher...
    If you come up with one that works Dreamer, please post it....Because

    It isn't only the anti's that are living in nanny state dreamworld. Lots of supposedly pro gun people talk the talk but don't believe in the fire extinguisher because they know the Government will be there to wipe their nose.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Oh, you're just one of those, "fire-extinguisher" nuts! You're just doing that to protect some abstract "right to bear fire-extinguishers!". We all know you secretly hope your house will catch fire, just so you can whip out your fire-extinguisher! We pray that no child gets ahold of your fire-extinguisher and whaps another child upside the head with it. Or, worse yet, decides to take it to school with him! And what if there really were a fire, why don't you just depend on the fire department, like any sensible person would?
    Ok.. that does it. I bet he's not a REAL lawyer.
    Carry On.

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    welcome G-fourteen.

    if you have such doubts about carrying, maybe you shouldn't. you seem to not have the confidence to handle it. it's a big responsibility. maybe you should think on it some more.

    btw, what is your response to those questions?
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    Regular Member tcmech's Avatar
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    One night a long time ago when I lived in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia, I was stationed at NAS North Island, and I had someone try to break into my rented townhouse in Imperial Beach. I picked up my Ruger P89 and chambered a round. My window was open and the person trying to break in heard me, and ran away, (I heard them run away and saw their shadow as they turned the corner of the building). I think that should qualify as having defended myself, and more importantly my family with a gun.

    I guess for question number one I would say "Me".
    If Obama is the answer; how stupid was the question?

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g-fourteen View Post
    A Friend of mine(Who is an english major) wrote me after I told her I open carry. Tonia wrote: "I realize you have a right to bear arms, but just a few questions: 1 - How many people (outside of the military and law enforcement) do you know personally, that have successfully defended themselves with a gun. 2 - How many people do you know have been subject to a violent attack, and could have successfully defended themselves had they owned a gun? (mind you, the gun has to be within reach to be successful). And 3 - How many people do/did you know that have been seriously injured/killed by a gunshot?"

    I know the answer to her questions 1 and 3 for me personally would be zero. Could someone help me here? How should I respond? I don't want to feel like I have no reason to carry when I know how I feel but can't convey it. Any help would be appreciated thanks.
    1 - How many people do you know personally, that have successfully defended their homes from a fire with a fire extinguisher?

    If she were asking that question, you could say that you know me. No one ever dreamed that when my father placed that old soda-acid extinguisher at the head of the stairs leading to the 2nd floor that it would be put to use fighting a fire burning in the rafters of the basement. That was 50 years ago (I was 17), and I have not needed one since, but I have one handy....

    BTW, I did call the FD, but after I put out the fire. I had to use the neighbor's phone because the fire burned the phone lines in my house. IIRC, it took me less time to put out the fire than took them to arrive.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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