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Thread: Got stopped in Independence KS

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    Got stopped in Independence KS

    The officer that stopped was a detective. He was pretty nice, he asked why I was open carrying and where we (I was with my fiance) were going. I told him we were just going on a walk, and I was open carrying because it's legal there are no local ordinances against it, and also because I can't yet afford a concealed carry permit. Then he asked for my identification. Three other squad cars showed up over the course of things, they didn't really say much. The detective asked if he could look at my gun, I knew what he meant he just wanted to run NCIC, and I don't particularly care. He asked if a round was in the chamber I responded yes. Then he pulled the slide back and left it locked open while he ran NCIC. He put the magazine back in and chambered then removed the magazine and put the previously chambered round back in the mag.

    All in all he said I really should get a concealed carry because I'll keep getting stopped because people will call it in even if it's legal. I informed him I work at Subway and that's a little expensive. He put my gun back in my holster and that was that.
    Last edited by TheAngelKing47; 06-02-2011 at 09:54 PM.

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    You did consentually agree to his "requests", but not bad outcome all things considered.

    Doubt they'll make a habit of it - if such were the case you can address things differently.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Well I understood his requests, I didn't particularly have any problem. I suppose I could have been bitter about having my serial # on my gun ran but quite frankly if I ever actually "need" a gun in any sort of shtf scenario a handgun merely is what it is and certainly wouldn't be my primary choice.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Goes to show there are non-political reasons for OC-ing and in that case it makes no sense for anyone to 'stand up for their amendment rights'. It's best to go the path of least resistance and hope the LEO is not planning/trying to get something on you to solve his feelings of inferiority or elitism.

    Of course there's also the issue of gun handling and being swept by your own piece, even having a LEO-ND.

    "Gee officer, I guess you know that LEOs have shot themselves and others accidentally recently and you want to fool around with my (unfamiliar to you) HG? You know that all NDs occur when handling the gun, loading, unloading and holstering, right? You knew in the first 10 seconds I was a 'good guy', so why put us both at risk?

    Well in that case, I can't stop you but be aware, I'm not coming to visit you when you shoot yourself in the leg with my HG'.

    I can't find fault with the OP's actions, besides that.

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    He asked if a round was chambered first, removed the magazine, pointed the handgun down and pulled the slide back. But I understand your point and from here forth I will inquire why they would like to look at my handgun, (of course I know why) and if they say NCIC I'll just tell them the serial #

  6. #6
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAngelKing47 View Post
    He asked if a round was chambered first, removed the magazine, pointed the handgun down and pulled the slide back. But I understand your point and from here forth I will inquire why they would like to look at my handgun, (of course I know why) and if they say NCIC I'll just tell them the serial #
    Why would you do that?

    There is no cause for him to run serial numbers on a gun just because they exist.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member NavyMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAngelKing47 View Post
    He asked if a round was chambered first......
    Why even ask? All firearms should be treated as always loaded!

    I would never take anyone's word as to the status of a firearm.
    cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Did he consent to letting you see his firearm?

    If an officer ever desires to "look at" or "see" my firearm, I will politely ask to "see" his as well.

    If he refuses, I will then inform him that "seeing" or "looking at" my firearm is friendly interaction, therefore, reciprocal. If he need to do anything other than "see" my firearm, he will need a warrant as taking posession of my property would be more of a "siezure" or "confiscation" than a euphamistic "looking at".

    I would then ask him what crime he has reasonable articulable suspicion of me committing in order to justify a warrant, and what probable cause he used to determine it.

    I would also have a good, clear recording of any answer he offers .

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    Ha ha well, I did consent. I'm not exactly rich either, so I was being nice because I chose to be nice. Lawyers are expensive and cops can make things up. Anyways I'm not implying they would but there's good and bad people everywhere. Like I said before, they were nice. Although they did kind of imply discouraging it.
    Last edited by TheAngelKing47; 06-03-2011 at 04:36 PM.

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    No condemnation from me. Yeah, you consented, and no they didn't have any RAS or PC, and we'll never know how they would have ratcheted things up, but we all know how they could have, even without any legal authority. You had to make your own call, and you did.

    Everyone has to make their own decisions based on time/place/circumstances. And for most of us, all those variables are going to change throughout our daily travels. On a stroll with my wife down my own street, on vacation, in no hurry to get out of jail? Yeah, I'll play hard to get. Traffic stop on the way to catch a plane for an important trip? "Yes sir, no sir, three bags full, sir!"

    Don't sweat any keyboard kommandos going on about how you broke weak: you did what you felt was right at the time. Be confident in your own conscience, and go with that.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAngelKing47 View Post
    All in all he said I really should get a concealed carry because I'll keep getting stopped because people will call it in even if it's legal.
    Actually the oppisite is true. If you continue to OC and others join you they "SHOULD" realize it is a waste of their time to hassle LACs and won't stop folks minding their own business. If they do continue and they do this to the wrong person (without consent) they are in a world of hurt (lawsuits.)

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    Regular Member usamarshal's Avatar
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    Maybe he stopped you because you spit in his sub?...j/k...

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    Regular Member Damiansar-15's Avatar
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    Civil Rights

    There are plenty of lawyers out there who will gladly take a civil suit on your behalf against the city for violating your civil rights, e.g. http://www.theshootersbar.org/ Remember these suits often get settled without the lawyer doing much work, so many would gladly partner with you for % of a settlement. It also is one of the most efficient ways to change local ordinances and police proceedure, because the City will not want to continue to have civil suits brought against them.

    Also, why would you risk a potential conviction by complying to searches if you legally are not required? Defending charges becomes a lot more expensive than the illegal CHL tax. The LEO was obviously trying to charge you with something and I don't understand why free citizens accept that behaviour.

    I think it is vital that free citizens stand up for their rights and keep LEOs in check. Many LEOs become aggressive when they start crossing the civil rights line and meet resistance from citizens who know and want to protect their rights. It does not make it easier for the rest of us when people comply with that type of unprofessional behaviour...

    The FBI investigates and charges LEOs each year for civil rights abuses. If you don't want to mess with a lawyer, how about reporting the activity to FBI, because this could get bad or poorly trained LEOs off the street.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damiansar-15 View Post
    There are plenty of lawyers out there who will gladly take a civil suit on your behalf against the city for violating your civil rights, e.g.
    Great advise but does not apply to the OP in this situation as he consented.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Damiansar-15's Avatar
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    What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfish View Post
    Great advise but does not apply to the OP in this situation as he consented.
    Where in my post did I tell him to sue for this compliance situation? He made and excuse about expensive lawyers, when in actually it can generate income to stand up for one's civil rights in the right context. In the future if he wanted to exercise his rights and not comply with additional harrassement from LEO, there are many lawyers out there who will bend over backwards to help file suit against the city.

    The whole reason for this forum is to share thoughts and ideas on how to support OC. My post was an attempt to provide supportive information to fight potential civil rights violations. No disrespect to anyone, but I don't approve of letting LEOs violate one's 2nd and 4th Amend. rights; this is not a good way to support the OC agenda. It is a free country, but that type of behaviour should be fought through legal means, e.g. lawsuit, reporting to officals, voting, city council, etc... Remember: A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost....

  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    It is not always necessary nor even desirable to make the quantum leap to civil action. Standing up for your rights doesn't have to mean taxing the local citizens with fiscal responsibility. All options and the reasons thereof should be carefully considered.

    Sometimes using the biggest hammer is the only way to drive the nail, but ultimately that is an individual decision based not entirely on the perception of others.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Goes to show there are non-political reasons for OC-ing and in that case it makes no sense for anyone to 'stand up for their amendment rights'. It's best to go the path of least resistance and hope the LEO is not planning/trying to get something on you to solve his feelings of inferiority or elitism.

    Of course there's also the issue of gun handling and being swept by your own piece, even having a LEO-ND.

    "Gee officer, I guess you know that LEOs have shot themselves and others accidentally recently and you want to fool around with my (unfamiliar to you) HG? You know that all NDs occur when handling the gun, loading, unloading and holstering, right? You knew in the first 10 seconds I was a 'good guy', so why put us both at risk?

    Well in that case, I can't stop you but be aware, I'm not coming to visit you when you shoot yourself in the leg with my HG'.

    I can't find fault with the OP's actions, besides that.
    We can just do this everytime.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Damiansar-15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    It is not always necessary nor even desirable to make the quantum leap to civil action. Standing up for your rights doesn't have to mean taxing the local citizens with fiscal responsibility. All options and the reasons thereof should be carefully considered.

    Sometimes using the biggest hammer is the only way to drive the nail, but ultimately that is an individual decision based not entirely on the perception of others.
    Hence my reference to other options..."legal means, e.g. lawsuit, reporting to officals, voting, city council, etc... " As someone who has actually exercised many options to promote OC and change unconstitutional ordinances and behaviour in Wichita area, I am finding that civil suits are pretty effective and are by no means the largest hammer available... I live in a Republic so all citizens, even minority groups, need to be represented whether or not they are rich, backed by a large PAC/Industry following, etc...

    Feel feel to add solutions or "hammers" to the discussion, because I think this would clearly articulate and substantiate what you are trying to communicate with your statement about other options...

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damiansar-15 View Post
    Hence my reference to other options..."legal means, e.g. lawsuit, reporting to officals, voting, city council, etc... " As someone who has actually exercised many options to promote OC and change unconstitutional ordinances and behaviour in Wichita area, I am finding that civil suits are pretty effective and are by no means the largest hammer available... I live in a Republic so all citizens, even minority groups, need to be represented whether or not they are rich, backed by a large PAC/Industry following, etc...

    Feel feel to add solutions or "hammers" to the discussion, because I think this would clearly articulate and substantiate what you are trying to communicate with your statement about other options...
    Do I misread a condescending tone? I neither am "attempting to communicate" (think I already do so reasonably well) and reject being told that I should "feel free" to do what I might do.

    My point w/o the race card or social economic status is that no extreme fits all equally. I will start with the most effective response IMO for each situation according to the merits. The impression received on this end from your post was directed at proceeding civilly post haste.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27 View Post
    Did he consent to letting you see his firearm?

    If an officer ever desires to "look at" or "see" my firearm, I will politely ask to "see" his as well.

    If he refuses, I will then inform him that "seeing" or "looking at" my firearm is friendly interaction, therefore, reciprocal. If he need to do anything other than "see" my firearm, he will need a warrant as taking posession of my property would be more of a "siezure" or "confiscation" than a euphamistic "looking at".

    I would then ask him what crime he has reasonable articulable suspicion of me committing in order to justify a warrant, and what probable cause he used to determine it.

    I would also have a good, clear recording of any answer he offers .
    This is an excellent post. RAS isn't enough for a warrant, btw. He would need PC. However, having RAS would allow him to detain you temporarily. RAS could lead to PC, not the other way around. But I really like your logic.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    If in the final analysis the OP is satisifed with how the encounter turned out, that's fine. Many of us would have immediately asked, under Terry, what is the reason for the stop and what crime are you investigating or preventing of which I am a suspect? If the answer was nonresponsive, we would have said "then I am free to go..." and not as a question. But that isn't the correct action for everyone. Hopefully, this was a learning experience with good feedback from the forum for the next time, or if the cop isn't "nice."
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

  22. #22
    Regular Member Damiansar-15's Avatar
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    Frrrrrt!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Do I misread a condescending tone? I neither am "attempting to communicate" (think I already do so reasonably well) and reject being told that I should "feel free" to do what I might do.

    My point w/o the race card or social economic status is that no extreme fits all equally. I will start with the most effective response IMO for each situation according to the merits. The impression received on this end from your post was directed at proceeding civilly post haste.
    First, I want to point out that no where in this thread did I say civil action is the first and only action to take to resolve open carry issues. Do you have an issue with me posting legal avenues for people to pursue?

    I do not know if you misread a condescending tone, but I was not trying to be condescending to anyone. I say what I think and people can take it how they choose. I also did not say you SHOULD do anything. I stated my thoughts and point of view on your post, just as you did so to my posts. I also did not post anything about race, so I do not understand your reference about race card. I think most all people would agree that people who open carry firearms are in the minority when compared to the rest of population. Previous posts had socio-economic reference, which is why I expressed the idea that all people need to be represented/protected in our Republic.

    I suppose we can agree to disagree about civil action towards government can be an appropriate option to defend one's rights. I know many people would agree with me that our Founding Fathers applied a lot more extreme measures when dealing with oppressive government officials than filing a civil suit.
    Last edited by Damiansar-15; 06-16-2011 at 12:27 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member turbodog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    No condemnation from me. Yeah, you consented, and no they didn't have any RAS or PC, and we'll never know how they would have ratcheted things up, but we all know how they could have, even without any legal authority. You had to make your own call, and you did.

    Everyone has to make their own decisions based on time/place/circumstances. And for most of us, all those variables are going to change throughout our daily travels. On a stroll with my wife down my own street, on vacation, in no hurry to get out of jail? Yeah, I'll play hard to get. Traffic stop on the way to catch a plane for an important trip? "Yes sir, no sir, three bags full, sir!"

    Don't sweat any keyboard kommandos going on about how you broke weak: you did what you felt was right at the time. Be confident in your own conscience, and go with that.
    Well said sir. You are exactly right in that there are those who think one should play hardball right from the first words from a LEO's mouth. Nonsense. Learn to pick your battles and you might just make a good impression on a LEO who thinks all OCer's are morons. The OP handled his situation just fine in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Him: "I carry my gun concealed"
    Me: "You're not very good at it"
    Him: "What do you mean?"
    Me: "I know you have a gun"
    End of conversation.

  24. #24
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    County Under Sheriff

    The guy at the begining of this blog is a straight shooter. He comments on my open carry every time I go to subway. I too have been "questioned" by INDY PD. Matter of fact, right in front of INDY subway. lol The local officers around here are prety well mannered for the most part and if you are straight with them and you have no warrants, you will be addressed in a respectful manner. I have no intention of ever relinquishing my weapon unless I am to go into "custody".
    The County Under Sheriff however apparently does not know that Kansas is an open carry State. He just stopped my brother inlaw at the VET in Cherryvale. He was/is under the impression that you MUST conceal carry. I am sure after his run in with my Marine Brother, he will get better informed. The conversation between them ended with Troy calling in to dispatch to clarify I guess. LOL.
    I am just glad to know there are others out there defending and exercising their Constitional rights. It is better to be informed than to rely on others for FACTS on law. The guy/gal behind the badge can not know every law, so you must.
    Keep your powder dry subway man!!!

  25. #25
    Regular Member turbodog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    No condemnation from me. Yeah, you consented, and no they didn't have any RAS or PC, and we'll never know how they would have ratcheted things up, but we all know how they could have, even without any legal authority. You had to make your own call, and you did.

    Everyone has to make their own decisions based on time/place/circumstances. And for most of us, all those variables are going to change throughout our daily travels. On a stroll with my wife down my own street, on vacation, in no hurry to get out of jail? Yeah, I'll play hard to get. Traffic stop on the way to catch a plane for an important trip? "Yes sir, no sir, three bags full, sir!"

    Don't sweat any keyboard kommandos going on about how you broke weak: you did what you felt was right at the time. Be confident in your own conscience, and go with that.
    Well said sir!
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Him: "I carry my gun concealed"
    Me: "You're not very good at it"
    Him: "What do you mean?"
    Me: "I know you have a gun"
    End of conversation.

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