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Thread: Valedictorian fights judge's ban on graduation prayer

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Valedictorian fights judge's ban on graduation prayer

    Yep. It's coming to this. I graduated in the day when a prayer was welcome. Our Founding Fathers ushered in our nation on a bevy of the, as recorded in the annuls of history.

    These days, such "judges" are bent hell-ass over backwards to usher God out of our country, closely followed by any similar ration, reason, and or rhyme.

    To Angela Hildenbrand and any and all supporters, GO!!! You're what our country is all about, and what many of us have fought and died for these many years!

    To U.S. District Judge Fred Biery, you belong elsewhere, Sir. I don't know where else, nor do I care. Regardless, you don't get it. May I suggest you begin by re-reading our Constitution. I would have though it was required reading before becoming a lawyer.

    Apparently not.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    There is absolutely nothing in the Bill of Rights, let alone the Constitution, that bans school prayer, Christmas scenes at firehouses, or the Cross in a government building. Nothing. You won't find it because it does not exist.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Separation of church and state is about state established/controlled religion. IT has nothing to do with keeping religion out of the state. IT is about mandatory worship practices. People like to twist things.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    I'm exposed to different cultures and religions on a daily basis.

    So who is right? Which belief is right? Who is wrong? Who gets to decide?

    How many different religious beliefs will be represented at this graduation? If they say one prayer will they say a prayer for every religion? To Thor the God of Thunder perhaps?


    Here is an idea. Don't cram your religious beliefs down other's throats. Your's is NOT the only one, contrary to popular belief. Keep it to yourself. Or give equal time, consideration, and respect to ALL of them. Or how about a silent moment for all to pray as they see fit?



    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 06-03-2011 at 01:01 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
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    ITT: People who claim to give a damn about the constitution who don't.

    Look, if I'm sitting at a graduation, a state-sanctioned/school-sponsored event, and upon the school-provided stage, over school-provided microphone, that is providing what is, therefore, a school-sponsored message... What gives a person the right to proselytize?

    Start here, and note that the two who brought suit were both Christians: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...l=530&page=290 which references this: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...=505&invol=577
    The Establishment Clause was inspired by the lesson that in the hands of government what might begin as a tolerant expression of religious views may end in a policy to indoctrinate and coerce. Prayer exercises in elementary and secondary schools carry a particular risk of indirect coercion. Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 ; School Dist. of Abington v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 . The school district's supervision and control of a high school graduation ceremony places subtle and indirect public and peer pressure on attending students to stand as a group or maintain respectful silence during the invocation and benediction. A reasonable dissenter of high school age could believe that standing or remaining silent signified her own participation in, or approval of, the group exercise, rather than her respect for it. And the State may not place the student dissenter in the dilemma of participating or protesting. Since adolescents are often susceptible to peer pressure, especially in matters of social convention, the State may no more use social pressure to enforce orthodoxy than it may use direct means. The embarrassment and intrusion of the religious exercise cannot be refuted by arguing that the prayers are of a de minimis character, since that is an affront to the rabbi and those for whom the prayers have meaning, and since any intrusion was both real and a violation of the objectors' rights.
    Last edited by Tawnos; 06-03-2011 at 02:09 PM.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    I'm exposed to different cultures and religions on a daily basis.

    So who is right? Which belief is right? Who is wrong? Who gets to decide?

    How many different religious beliefs will be represented at this graduation? If they say one prayer will they say a prayer for every religion? To Thor the God of Thunder perhaps?


    Here is an idea. Don't cram your religious beliefs down other's throats. Your's is NOT the only one, contrary to popular belief. Keep it to yourself. Or give equal time, consideration, and respect to ALL of them. Or how about a silent moment for all to pray as they see fit?



    It's not like anyone was trying to cram any particular religious dogma down anyone else's throat. The case is about ONE kid who can not tolerate other people openly praying. The ruling violated the girl's right to free religious expression. If you can not tolerate people doing something they have a right to do, and that you don't have to participate in, you're a bed wetting malcontent.

    Furthermore, no other religious group's followers apparently demanded to have their prayers heard. The issue was about one kid in the entire school, who IMO wanted to be an (|).
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    It's not like anyone was trying to cram any particular religious dogma down anyone else's throat. The case is about ONE kid who can not tolerate other people openly praying. The ruling violated the girl's right to free religious expression. If you can not tolerate people doing something they have a right to do, and that you don't have to participate in, you're a bed wetting malcontent.

    Furthermore, no other religious group's followers apparently demanded to have their prayers heard. The issue was about one kid in the entire school, who IMO wanted to be an (|).
    It amazes me that folks who purport to be pro-Liberty consider the simple exercise of free speech by an individual to be "cramming" ideas. The irrational fear of someone else's ideas is worse than the irrational fear of a lawfully-carried firearm.

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    If I remember correctly, when I graduated from High School (1970)there were two seperate events. First was the optional prayer and spiritual ceremony. The next evening was the actual graduation. We dressed up for both and they were both about the same length of time minus the diploma recieving. Since the prayer ceremony was optional, not one would object. Worked out great for us!

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    [COLOR=blue]It's not like anyone was trying to cram any particular religious dogma down anyone else's throat.
    Well thanks for the clarification. I was going off the OP and thought it was the complete opposite. Have since read the link provided by Tawnos too.





    {note to self: another perfectly good rant wasted}
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 06-04-2011 at 02:14 AM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
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    Regular Member Deadcenter45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    *SNIP*
    {note to self: another perfectly good rant wasted}
    You got quite the touchy trigger there.

    Angry much? It is easy to picture you all red faced, veins bulging, screaming obscenities while rage typing.

    You sir, are a perfect example of a very vocal minority.



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    It has been reported that the circuit court of appeals correctly reversed the district judge.

    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Well thanks for the clarification. I was going off the OP and thought it was the complete opposite. Have since read the link provided by Tawnos too.





    {note to self: another perfectly good rant wasted}
    I don't see TAWNOS' posts, since I have no use for vapid reactionary leftwing talking points. When I need those, I'll try and watch MSNBC. On an empty stomach of course.
    Last edited by PrayingForWar; 06-04-2011 at 12:07 PM. Reason: corrected grammar
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadcenter45 View Post
    You got quite the touchy trigger there.

    Angry much? It is easy to picture you all red faced, veins bulging, screaming obscenities while rage typing.
    Joke much? It's easy to picture you in mother's sun dress, gloved hand holding the wide brimmed hat to your undersized cranium in the afternoon breeze. Careful not to shift your weight on the miniature chair, thus causing you to crash to the ground, you daintily pour tea for all your guests into ancient tiny Blue Willow cups. Mr. Snuggles the stuffed bunny can hardy sit still! Oh what a glorious afternoon indeed!




    You sir, are a perfect example of a very vocal minority.
    Because I said people shouldn't cram their beliefs down other's throats... or that I misinterpreted the rather vague OP? Or that I'm the only one on the internet, besides you?
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I can't wait until some Pagan or Wiccan student gets enough spine (and has the support to do so) to do a prayer to Pan or Odin or Cernunnos one of these days.

    We'll see just how "free" people REALLY are in this nation to practice their religions during public events then...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    I can't wait until some Pagan or Wiccan student gets enough spine (and has the support to do so) to do a prayer to Pan or Odin or Cernunnos one of these days.

    We'll see just how "free" people REALLY are in this nation to practice their religions during public events then...
    It seems like we're beyond that. You don't get much more "public" than the military.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcr6.htm
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    I don't see TAWNOS' posts, since I have no use for vapid reactionary leftwing talking points. When I need those, I'll try and watch MSNBC. On an empty stomach of course.
    Apparently providing citations and respecting the constitution makes me vapid and left-wing. In that case, I only hope the rest of you are half as vapid and left-wing.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    I can't wait until some Pagan or Wiccan student gets enough spine (and has the support to do so) to do a prayer to Pan or Odin or Cernunnos one of these days.

    We'll see just how "free" people REALLY are in this nation to practice their religions during public events then...
    +1 for devout muslim valedictorian.

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    Apart from their being a tiny minority of the population, why aren't we seeing more (if any) devout valedictorians from such groups? Their populations are large enough that we should see some every year, insisting on their right to make their beliefs a part of their valedictory. So, why don't we?

    IMO, it is because the Judeo-Christian ethic value hard work and accomplishment. Most other value systems that we see in America do not. Some value them even more, but are members of these groups devout, and do they pray?

    Furthermore, the nation as a whole seems to be losing the ethic (hence some districts doing away with the naming of valedictorians). I think it is because we are moving away from the whole Judeo-Christian ethic, of which the value of hard work and accomplishment is a part. Sad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Apart from their being a tiny minority of the population, why aren't we seeing more (if any) devout valedictorians from such groups? Their populations are large enough that we should see some every year, insisting on their right to make their beliefs a part of their valedictory. So, why don't we?
    You've answered your own question. There are a very small minority, and thus far none of that minority has wanted to proselytize on stage. Consider it this way: a very small minority of Christians have tried to force the issue, believing that their religious views exempt them from Constitution consideration, apparently. If it's the same in all groups, only a small group of the larger population wishes to pray as a valedictorian, then perhaps there just haven't been enough valedictorian Muslims to get one who wants to AW it up. More than that, you have to consider the position of these minority community members. It's easy to do the whole "look at me" prayer on stage when you're surrounded by a majority that agrees with you. That's why we have the Constitution, I note. It protects the rights of the few from the tyranny of the many.

    IMO, it is because the Judeo-Christian ethic value hard work and accomplishment. Most other value systems that we see in America do not. Some value them even more, but are members of these groups devout, and do they pray?
    What a load of crap. Where do you get that idea? Have you studied other value systems? If you really think it's true, you should be giving citations. If more Asian people are Buddhist than not, and more of them tend to be in the higher SES ranks and scholastic achievements than the rest of the country, why do you think that it has anything to do with "protestant work ethic"? Seriously, where do you get the idea that other groups don't value work and accomplishment?

    Furthermore, the nation as a whole seems to be losing the ethic (hence some districts doing away with the naming of valedictorians). I think it is because we are moving away from the whole Judeo-Christian ethic, of which the value of hard work and accomplishment is a part. Sad.
    Hard work, but poor writing? I love reading things like OKCupid's blog, because they do a great job providing citations and producing lovely charts like this one:
    (source)

    What's interesting is how it lines up to previous data they've collected.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Saying a prayer is nothing more than another form of exercising free speech.

    No government body has the power to infringe upon this right.

    I have kept my eyes open and though of dinner, what kind of boots to buy, or whether or not to go with a 20-round or 30-round Pmag during the middle of a prayer at a dinner table.

    I have likewise listened intently to a prayer given with the best of intentions, and in the kindest of spirits that made a lot of sense, similarly with my eyes open, doing my normal thing.

    Just as we expect the ability to exercise our 1st amendment rights during OC activities, so do the religious reserve the same rights.

    Do something else you believe to be of value if you don't want to join in the prayer.

    It's not like it's going to kill you to hear someones religious belief any more than the stuttering and stammering of a valedictorian over a 1 hour speech with a bunch of "erm" and "uhhs".

    Relax brah.
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    Regular Member Mas49.56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    I can't wait until some Pagan or Wiccan student gets enough spine (and has the support to do so) to do a prayer to Pan or Odin or Cernunnos one of these days.

    We'll see just how "free" people REALLY are in this nation to practice their religions during public events then...
    Very true. However, don't hold your breath for a "Public event" prayer to Odin. We don't pray in that way to the Gods of the Aesir and the Vanir. Our world view is totally different. Most of us don't refer to ourselves as Pagan, we prefer Heathen or Asatru. We don't proselytize others, that's the Abrahamic religions concept.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    There is absolutely nothing in the Bill of Rights, let alone the Constitution, that bans school prayer, Christmas scenes at firehouses, or the Cross in a government building. Nothing. You won't find it because it does not exist.
    Yea, and there is nothing that protects it as a 'Right' to be exercised within those venues you offered as examples.

    And this whole time I thought the Constitution was packed with 'Protections'.

    Do I agree with the ruling -if every single person is fine with prayer in areas like those outlined above, then go for it.

    Can someone direct me to the areas of the Bill of Rights, and the Constitution that make statements about 'God'?

    I have read(e) both a number of times, and must have missed it. Really, it may be something I overlooked. Thank you.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowfiveoh View Post
    Saying a prayer is nothing more than another form of exercising free speech.

    No government body has the power to infringe upon this right.
    Unless it is a public school that is being funded by the state through tax payers. They want to pray to God, Jehova, Satan, Nothing, Everything, etc., do it on their time, not every person in the rooms time.

    I have kept my eyes open and though of dinner, what kind of boots to buy, or whether or not to go with a 20-round or 30-round Pmag during the middle of a prayer at a dinner table.
    I am not a religious person, but have found myself only occasionally to be doing this.

    I have likewise listened intently to a prayer given with the best of intentions, and in the kindest of spirits that made a lot of sense, similarly with my eyes open, doing my normal thing.
    I usually say "amen." I think it's more out of respect for the person praying. Most religious people have something good to say in a prayer that I agree with.

    Just as we expect the ability to exercise our 1st amendment rights during OC activities, so do the religious reserve the same rights.
    We hit a bump here . Yes, both are a First Amendment 'Right'. Although, I should point out that carrying your sidearm into a school, and prayer to some 'God' are two different issues. And really, this is what it is about, the issue. The issue of self-defense. The issue of what Dogma you 'believe' in.


    Do something else you believe to be of value if you don't want to join in the prayer.
    Such as do what you came there to do, which is get your dance-on? If the person praying would shut the hell up, and start the music.

    It's not like it's going to kill you to hear someones religious belief any more than the stuttering and stammering of a valedictorian over a 1 hour speech with a bunch of "erm" and "uhhs".

    Relax brah.
    Are you sure about that? Wait, the prayer never killed a person, but historically there have been a few things that kill a person following a prayer, such as when an individual receives the death penalty, or when an individual made prayer prior to, say, flying a jetliner into a Tower. Prayer perpetuated the latter.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 06-05-2011 at 09:51 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Every time God is pushed out, the country sinks a little bit lower. Coincidence? Hahaha no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Every time God is pushed out, the country sinks a little bit lower. Coincidence? Hahaha no.
    Gods don't exist, and your fairytales are some of the greatest threats to this country's rights and freedoms.

    What? You were saying stuff I think is BS, why not return the favor?

    Can you at least provide references what it means for the country to "sink ...lower"?
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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