Valedictorian fights judge's ban on graduation prayer

since9 · Jun 2, 2011

Yep. It's coming to this. I graduated in the day when a prayer was welcome. Our Founding Fathers ushered in our nation on a bevy of the, as recorded in the annuls of history.

These days, such "judges" are bent hell-ass over backwards to usher God out of our country, closely followed by any similar ration, reason, and or rhyme.

To Angela Hildenbrand and any and all supporters, GO!!! You're what our country is all about, and what many of us have fought and died for these many years!

To U.S. District Judge Fred Biery, you belong elsewhere, Sir. I don't know where else, nor do I care. Regardless, you don't get it. May I suggest you begin by re-reading our Constitution. I would have though it was required reading before becoming a lawyer.

Apparently not.

blaze · Jun 3, 2011

Pretty tough judge.

SouthernBoy · Jun 3, 2011

There is absolutely nothing in the Bill of Rights, let alone the Constitution, that bans school prayer, Christmas scenes at firehouses, or the Cross in a government building. Nothing. You won't find it because it does not exist.

HKcarrier · Jun 3, 2011

Separation of church and state is about state established/controlled religion. IT has nothing to do with keeping religion out of the state. IT is about mandatory worship practices. People like to twist things.

HandyHamlet · Jun 3, 2011

I'm exposed to different cultures and religions on a daily basis.

So who is right? Which belief is right? Who is wrong? Who gets to decide?

How many different religious beliefs will be represented at this graduation? If they say one prayer will they say a prayer for every religion? To Thor the God of Thunder perhaps?

Here is an idea. Don't cram your religious beliefs down other's throats. Your's is NOT the only one, contrary to popular belief. Keep it to yourself. Or give equal time, consideration, and respect to ALL of them. Or how about a silent moment for all to pray as they see fit?

Claytron · Jun 3, 2011

My question is why force an entire room full of people, who most likely dont give an ounce of a crap for your religion, to listen to your wierd holy chanting stuff at an event that has absolutely NOTHING to do with any god or religion.

If she is religious and feels that dog almighty set her on the path of righteousness and wants to thank him then why not do it in private with your loved ones who share your feelings? If I wanted to chant some haitian voodoo ritual id wager that the majority of people backing this young woman would turn around and denounce me for the same reason - religion.

This same school is being sued for allegedly forcing students to pray.

Tawnos · Jun 3, 2011

ITT: People who claim to give a damn about the constitution who don't.

Look, if I'm sitting at a graduation, a state-sanctioned/school-sponsored event, and upon the school-provided stage, over school-provided microphone, that is providing what is, therefore, a school-sponsored message... What gives a person the right to proselytize?

Start here, and note that the two who brought suit were both Christians: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=530&page=290 which references this: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=505&invol=577

The Establishment Clause was inspired by the lesson that in the hands of government what might begin as a tolerant expression of religious views may end in a policy to indoctrinate and coerce. Prayer exercises in elementary and secondary schools carry a particular risk of indirect coercion. Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 ; School Dist. of Abington v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 . The school district's supervision and control of a high school graduation ceremony places subtle and indirect public and peer pressure on attending students to stand as a group or maintain respectful silence during the invocation and benediction. A reasonable dissenter of high school age could believe that standing or remaining silent signified her own participation in, or approval of, the group exercise, rather than her respect for it. And the State may not place the student dissenter in the dilemma of participating or protesting. Since adolescents are often susceptible to peer pressure, especially in matters of social convention, the State may no more use social pressure to enforce orthodoxy than it may use direct means. The embarrassment and intrusion of the religious exercise cannot be refuted by arguing that the prayers are of a de minimis character, since that is an affront to the rabbi and those for whom the prayers have meaning, and since any intrusion was both real and a violation of the objectors' rights.

PrayingForWar · Jun 3, 2011

HandyHamlet said:
I'm exposed to different cultures and religions on a daily basis.

So who is right? Which belief is right? Who is wrong? Who gets to decide?

How many different religious beliefs will be represented at this graduation? If they say one prayer will they say a prayer for every religion? To Thor the God of Thunder perhaps?

Here is an idea. Don't cram your religious beliefs down other's throats. Your's is NOT the only one, contrary to popular belief. Keep it to yourself. Or give equal time, consideration, and respect to ALL of them. Or how about a silent moment for all to pray as they see fit?

It's not like anyone was trying to cram any particular religious dogma down anyone else's throat. The case is about ONE kid who can not tolerate other people openly praying. The ruling violated the girl's right to free religious expression. If you can not tolerate people doing something they have a right to do, and that you don't have to participate in, you're a bed wetting malcontent.

Furthermore, no other religious group's followers apparently demanded to have their prayers heard. The issue was about one kid in the entire school, who IMO wanted to be an (|).

eye95 · Jun 3, 2011

PrayingForWar said:
It's not like anyone was trying to cram any particular religious dogma down anyone else's throat. The case is about ONE kid who can not tolerate other people openly praying. The ruling violated the girl's right to free religious expression. If you can not tolerate people doing something they have a right to do, and that you don't have to participate in, you're a bed wetting malcontent.

Furthermore, no other religious group's followers apparently demanded to have their prayers heard. The issue was about one kid in the entire school, who IMO wanted to be an (|).

It amazes me that folks who purport to be pro-Liberty consider the simple exercise of free speech by an individual to be "cramming" ideas.

The irrational fear of someone else's ideas is worse than the irrational fear of a lawfully-carried firearm.

carracer · Jun 3, 2011

If I remember correctly, when I graduated from High School (1970)there were two seperate events. First was the optional prayer and spiritual ceremony. The next evening was the actual graduation. We dressed up for both and they were both about the same length of time minus the diploma recieving. Since the prayer ceremony was optional, not one would object. Worked out great for us!

HandyHamlet · Jun 4, 2011

PrayingForWar said:
It's not like anyone was trying to cram any particular religious dogma down anyone else's throat.

Well thanks for the clarification. I was going off the OP and thought it was the complete opposite. Have since read the link provided by Tawnos too.

{note to self: another perfectly good rant wasted}

Deadcenter45 · Jun 4, 2011

HandyHamlet said:
*SNIP*
{note to self: another perfectly good rant wasted}

You got quite the touchy trigger there.

Angry much? It is easy to picture you all red faced, veins bulging, screaming obscenities while rage typing.

You sir, are a perfect example of a very vocal minority.

Android + Tapatalk

OldCurlyWolf · Jun 4, 2011

It has been reported that the circuit court of appeals correctly reversed the district judge.

PrayingForWar · Jun 4, 2011

HandyHamlet said:
Well thanks for the clarification. I was going off the OP and thought it was the complete opposite. Have since read the link provided by Tawnos too.

{note to self: another perfectly good rant wasted}

I don't see TAWNOS' posts, since I have no use for vapid reactionary leftwing talking points. When I need those, I'll try and watch MSNBC. On an empty stomach of course.

HandyHamlet · Jun 4, 2011

Deadcenter45 said:
You got quite the touchy trigger there.

Angry much? It is easy to picture you all red faced, veins bulging, screaming obscenities while rage typing.

Joke much? It's easy to picture you in mother's sun dress, gloved hand holding the wide brimmed hat to your undersized cranium in the afternoon breeze. Careful not to shift your weight on the miniature chair, thus causing you to crash to the ground, you daintily pour tea for all your guests into ancient tiny Blue Willow cups. Mr. Snuggles the stuffed bunny can hardy sit still! Oh what a glorious afternoon indeed!

You sir, are a perfect example of a very vocal minority.

Because I said people shouldn't cram their beliefs down other's throats... or that I misinterpreted the rather vague OP? Or that I'm the only one on the internet, besides you?

Dreamer · Jun 4, 2011

I can't wait until some Pagan or Wiccan student gets enough spine (and has the support to do so) to do a prayer to Pan or Odin or Cernunnos one of these days.

We'll see just how "free" people REALLY are in this nation to practice their religions during public events then...

PrayingForWar · Jun 4, 2011

Dreamer said:
I can't wait until some Pagan or Wiccan student gets enough spine (and has the support to do so) to do a prayer to Pan or Odin or Cernunnos one of these days.

We'll see just how "free" people REALLY are in this nation to practice their religions during public events then...

It seems like we're beyond that. You don't get much more "public" than the military.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcr6.htm

Tawnos · Jun 4, 2011

PrayingForWar said:
I don't see TAWNOS' posts, since I have no use for vapid reactionary leftwing talking points. When I need those, I'll try and watch MSNBC. On an empty stomach of course.

Apparently providing citations and respecting the constitution makes me vapid and left-wing. In that case, I only hope the rest of you are half as vapid and left-wing.

AmbushBug · Jun 5, 2011

Dreamer said:
I can't wait until some Pagan or Wiccan student gets enough spine (and has the support to do so) to do a prayer to Pan or Odin or Cernunnos one of these days.

We'll see just how "free" people REALLY are in this nation to practice their religions during public events then...

+1 for devout muslim valedictorian.

eye95 · Jun 5, 2011

Apart from their being a tiny minority of the population, why aren't we seeing more (if any) devout valedictorians from such groups? Their populations are large enough that we should see some every year, insisting on their right to make their beliefs a part of their valedictory. So, why don't we?

IMO, it is because the Judeo-Christian ethic value hard work and accomplishment. Most other value systems that we see in America do not. Some value them even more, but are members of these groups devout, and do they pray?

Furthermore, the nation as a whole seems to be losing the ethic (hence some districts doing away with the naming of valedictorians). I think it is because we are moving away from the whole Judeo-Christian ethic, of which the value of hard work and accomplishment is a part. Sad.

Valedictorian fights judge's ban on graduation prayer

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