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Thread: Adhesion and unfairness at FL ranges

  1. #1
    Founder's Club Member Jojo712's Avatar
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    Adhesion and unfairness at FL ranges

    I'm wondering if there's a way we can fight against an unfairness that I've seen in the gun range world for a while, but until recently I had not seen it spread to my town (Miami): take it or leave it forms that are contracts of adhesion, and that serve to make the range prices unfairly and unnecessarily higher for those who are better prepared to shoot, and those who shoot en masse.

    For instance (the ranges will remain nameless -- those in the area know them enough), as a younger attorney I did plenty of work in Pinellas county, despite working out of Miami. Clearwater and St. Pete had a huge crack wave (which is now becoming a meth wave), and it was profitable for a good criminal lawyer to come in and sweep some of these cases, so I worked there plenty, and even stayed there (in the Bel Air area) for weeks at a time.

    To destress, I went shooting at a place off the US19. They required member cards and they charged for them. This was unheard of in Miami at the time.

    Now, years later, I find that the two places I frequent in Miami are going in this direction, and taking it up a notch. One of them only allows you to shoot their targets (other targets are no different; they just don't have their logo, etc.). Their targets are $1-1.50 apiece. Not much, but if I already have my own, why the squeeze?

    Another has undertaken various measures: they charge for membership (cheap, but still a charge) and then never use the card; then, they charge an extra $5 per person if you bring your own ammo (rather than buying their own, higher-priced ammo). Their ammo requirements are also becoming strange: while before they disallowed reloads and unsafe ammo brands, now they disallow "cheap" Russian ammo brands as well. I would assume that the point is to place the squeeze on us.

    The worst part about it is that these are take it or leave it contracts that we sign with these ranges, under the forced assumption that we can either sign and shoot or walk and dry fire at home. These dealings, because of the scarcity of ranges, are without a doubt contracts of adhesion: "you take the tires for the advertised price, but only if you also take the seven year warranty, balancing, rotation, and alignment "plan."

    We are being forced to pay more by these ranges simply because they can. This is abuse, and we have to call it out. I'd like to know if you've had any experience in the matter, and what kind of results you have obtained; also, I'd like to know where I might go for help in these matters.

    We shouldn't be forced to pay more simply because we are better prepared.

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo712 View Post
    contracts of adhesion, and that serve to make the range prices unfairly and unnecessarily higher...
    Then file an anti-trust case counselor.
    I would just take my money elsewhere. When businesses loose customers, they go out of business.

  3. #3
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Yeah, I don't think the ranges are doing anything illegal or immoral such that we need to get the government involved. I've never heard of a range requiring you to use their own stuff, that sucks.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    I've never heard of a range requiring you to use their own stuff, that sucks.
    Not terribly uncommon. A few ranges around Central Florida charge extra on their range fee if you shoot your own ammo, or, they way they describe it to you, they "discount" their range fee if you'll buy and shoot their overpriced ammo.

    I won't be robbed that way, and while what they're doing may not be illegal, it's still criminal in my book. I don't do business with criminals.

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    All the indoor ranges I've been to in Brevard County now require you to buy ammo from them. Since I only shoot my own reloads, they've lost my business.

    I didn't mind paying $12 and hour to shoot, but paying four times what it costs me to reload for the privilege of shooting ammo that doesn’t perform the way I want it to is unacceptable.

    I joined the Titusville R&P Club where I can shoot all I want with whatever ammo I choose at whatever targets I like for $100 per year.

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    I won't pay by the hour either. A local indoor range here is $10 for the whole day, shoot as long as you want, leave, grab some lunch/more ammo/etc., and come back. None of those criminal "sucker fees" for shooting your own ammo, no requirement to shoot their targets....just pay 'em $10 and have at it.

    Their rental arrangement is decent too...pay $10 to rent one of their guns, and you can swap out to different guns all day long no extra charge. The only downside is they do require you to shoot their ammo in their rental guns. But, the real kicker in the end is.....their ammo prices are reasonable.

    Solid proof that robbing your customers isn't necessary to stay in business.

  7. #7
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    I'm lucky enough to shoot pistol in my backyard but it scares the cows so I tend to go to a really nice range in Ocala which lets you bring your own stuff. Digital screens you touch to gauge distance, A/C, Air filters, the works and they didn't say anything about the OC on my way out either. They're safety Nazis but I like that because of the idiots who go to public ranges. R&D tactical is the name.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeepSeller View Post
    I won't be robbed that way, and while what they're doing may not be illegal, it's still criminal in my book.
    I agree. I don't give any range my money. I get permission to shoot from someone who owns a few dozen acres. No know-it-all range officers, no greedy elitists. In general, it's a nicer experience not to put up with all the crap.

    I do have a range near me that isn't retarded, but it's indoor pistol only. They don't like my preferred pistol very much. :-P
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    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    because of the idiots who go to public ranges
    When the Cops show up, I leave. The only range accidents I've witnessed were committed by cops and there was no press coverage. Typical.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member Jojo712's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post
    Then file an anti-trust case counselor.
    I would just take my money elsewhere. When businesses loose customers, they go out of business.
    They'd need to be together and acting in unison for antitrust purposes. These ranges are in competition against each other.

    Taking my money elsewhere in Miami would likely mean keeping my money, since the outdoor ranges in the Miami heat are absolutely unbearable.

  11. #11
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    find a better range.

    i suggest Hernando sportsman's club

    bit of a drive for you if your coming from clearwater but its a very good place.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo712 View Post
    I'm wondering if there's a way we can fight against an unfairness that I've seen in the gun range world for a while, but until recently I had not seen it spread to my town (Miami): take it or leave it forms that are contracts of adhesion, and that serve to make the range prices unfairly and unnecessarily higher for those who are better prepared to shoot, and those who shoot en masse.

    For instance (the ranges will remain nameless -- those in the area know them enough), as a younger attorney I did plenty of work in Pinellas county, despite working out of Miami. Clearwater and St. Pete had a huge crack wave (which is now becoming a meth wave), and it was profitable for a good criminal lawyer to come in and sweep some of these cases, so I worked there plenty, and even stayed there (in the Bel Air area) for weeks at a time.

    To destress, I went shooting at a place off the US19. They required member cards and they charged for them. This was unheard of in Miami at the time.

    Now, years later, I find that the two places I frequent in Miami are going in this direction, and taking it up a notch. One of them only allows you to shoot their targets (other targets are no different; they just don't have their logo, etc.). Their targets are $1-1.50 apiece. Not much, but if I already have my own, why the squeeze?

    Another has undertaken various measures: they charge for membership (cheap, but still a charge) and then never use the card; then, they charge an extra $5 per person if you bring your own ammo (rather than buying their own, higher-priced ammo). Their ammo requirements are also becoming strange: while before they disallowed reloads and unsafe ammo brands, now they disallow "cheap" Russian ammo brands as well. I would assume that the point is to place the squeeze on us.

    The worst part about it is that these are take it or leave it contracts that we sign with these ranges, under the forced assumption that we can either sign and shoot or walk and dry fire at home. These dealings, because of the scarcity of ranges, are without a doubt contracts of adhesion: "you take the tires for the advertised price, but only if you also take the seven year warranty, balancing, rotation, and alignment "plan."

    We are being forced to pay more by these ranges simply because they can. This is abuse, and we have to call it out. I'd like to know if you've had any experience in the matter, and what kind of results you have obtained; also, I'd like to know where I might go for help in these matters.

    We shouldn't be forced to pay more simply because we are better prepared.
    I quit going to the indoor range. I shoot out in the woods on private property with friends. We do what we want, and we only pay for ammo and targets. Nobody can tell us what we can shoot or how we can shoot.

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    When the Cops show up, I leave. The only range accidents I've witnessed were committed by cops and there was no press coverage. Typical.
    Not too long ago some people at the range had mistaken me for a LEO, which I found interesting (I've heard that before). These guys that thought I was the cop were just awful with handguns...come to find out they were cops O_o

    (no safety problems that I saw, just couldn't hit jack squat at 20yds)

  14. #14
    Regular Member crashnjax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo712 View Post
    They'd need to be together and acting in unison for antitrust purposes. These ranges are in competition against each other.

    Taking my money elsewhere in Miami would likely mean keeping my money, since the outdoor ranges in the Miami heat are absolutely unbearable.
    I actually like shooting my out door range. gives me a more real world look at my reloads. specially at 25 and 50 yards with cross winds which happens in real life situations. But i dont pay nothing. i use my targets, my loads, i pick up my brass and i leave. no fees no bs and no bs safety man. Now the range does host Nassau officers for training, performs training for class g security shootings and also hunting members for the club. but i belong to neither of the latter. Strive to find the cheapest place ac or not. We the people have the power. We just have to united and boy cott them long enough until they give in. But also keep in mind that they may be relying on sales in order to stay in business and cost of living has gone up alot over the years, no?
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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southern boy View Post
    find a better range.

    i suggest Hernando sportsman's club

    bit of a drive for you if your coming from clearwater but its a very good place.
    I used to be a volunteer RO there. Quite a lot of retired busy-body HOA mindset people there. If you just go, shoot, and leave; it's pretty nice.

    Me an my M60 were thrown out. Same with my .50 BMG... Not Allowed. Last I went there, they were leaning to the $10,000 shotgun crowd.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  16. #16
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post

    I do have a range near me that isn't retarded, but it's indoor pistol only. They don't like my preferred pistol very much. :-P
    Harry Beckwith?
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  17. #17
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    yeah beckwiths is the only range i know of in gainesville lol.....if sum1 in gainesville knows where i can shoot my AR-15 (just bought it) let me know! i drove to ocala national forest yday to go to the outdoor range, and it turns out its closed until june 15 for repairs!

  18. #18
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    There is a place north of town, but it's expensive and snooty. $20 for the one range they allow the lowly, poor, unwashed masses to shoot on.

    http://www.bsfshootingsports.com/

    Map, Directions, Address on their website.

    I went there twice. It's damn expensive and kinda dumpy. Hernando Sportsman's Club is way nicer for much less money, but far away...
    Last edited by ixtow; 06-08-2011 at 12:27 PM.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japle View Post
    All the indoor ranges I've been to in Brevard County now require you to buy ammo from them. Since I only shoot my own reloads, they've lost my business.

    I didn't mind paying $12 and hour to shoot, but paying four times what it costs me to reload for the privilege of shooting ammo that doesn’t perform the way I want it to is unacceptable.

    I joined the Titusville R&P Club where I can shoot all I want with whatever ammo I choose at whatever targets I like for $100 per year.
    The range at the Astronaut / Police Officer Hall of Fame doesn't require you to shoot their ammo, last time I was there.

    It's also air conditioned, which is nice this time of year.

    I live in Orlando and drive over there during the summer because my local rang is like a toaster oven.

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member Jojo712's Avatar
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    To add insult to injury, they disallowed my Sellier & Bellot factory ammo at the range today. They said it was too "hot." Although I had plenty of AE Federal, I had also (just today) purchased a beautiful and priceless Wilson CQB Elite, which honestly needed more than just the 200 rounds of AE that I had.

    Once I ran out of the "acceptable" ammo, I came home, wishing they didn't run these ranges like Banana republics.

    I suppose I'll hit another range tomorrow (where they actually sell Sellier) and keep breaking in my SB234 commemorative gun elsewhere.

  21. #21
    Regular Member crashnjax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo712 View Post
    To add insult to injury, they disallowed my Sellier & Bellot factory ammo at the range today. They said it was too "hot." Although I had plenty of AE Federal, I had also (just today) purchased a beautiful and priceless Wilson CQB Elite, which honestly needed more than just the 200 rounds of AE that I had.

    Once I ran out of the "acceptable" ammo, I came home, wishing they didn't run these ranges like Banana republics.

    I suppose I'll hit another range tomorrow (where they actually sell Sellier) and keep breaking in my SB234 commemorative gun elsewhere.
    You should bring all of your guns up to jax and ill show you my fav range up here. NorthFloridaFirearmTrainingCenter
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