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Thread: June 8th may be interesting. Try to put it on the calendar

  1. #1
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    June 8th may be interesting. Try to put it on the calendar

    The VCDL sponsored how we respond to a man with a gun call, with the Henrico PD is on the 7th. (I think)

    I have serious doubts that this is going to be a big cheerleading session for the department like it was in Fairfax.

    They have some some explaining to do and if they misrepresent their actions or try to sidestep the questions, they're going to get called on it.

    No ice cream and cake for the Cops Monday night.

  2. #2
    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap
    The VCDL sponsored how we respond to a man with a gun call, with the Henrico PD is on the 7th. (I think)
    ......
    No ice cream and cake for the Cops Monday night.
    I think it's actually on June 8th, which is Wednesday .. it starts at 7pm though, so maybe that's where you get the 7th from
    Last edited by scouser; 06-03-2011 at 08:12 PM.

  3. #3
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    I think it's actually on June 8th, which is Wednesday .. it starts at 7pm though, so maybe that's where you get the 7th from
    I figured someone would look at the calendar

    The point is to get people there if they can come. There should be some real life experiences with the HPD questioned.

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I figured someone would look at the calendar

    The point is to get people there if they can come. There should be some real life experiences with the HPD questioned.
    exactly !! .. hope to make it there myself, just depends on what time I get to finish work that evening

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I have serious doubts that this is going to be a big cheerleading session for the department like it was in Fairfax.
    Hope it has a good turnout.

    I didn't find the one in Fairfax to be a cheerleading session for the department at all. They took tap-dancing to a fine art over some of the questions, and had members still talking to them an hour after they thought they were done.

    That said, it's an opportunity one will seldom get, and well worth attending.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    I have a question then. Who has told/allowed the HPD to go to this meeting and who is the spokesperson(s) and do they represent the brass and the working cop?

    If it's just a 'whitewash' or 'obfuscation' guy who sidesteps the issues and answers member questions using 'verbal judo' and not cites and ordinance numbers, is not aware of pre-emption and does not know the various important OC an FA cases, case law, then it will be a frustrating and colossal WoT.

    LEOs are well-versed in this kind of badinage and will sidestep and tapdance and genuflect and deflect and beat around the bush, and do it well. You'll hear 'totality of circumstances' and 'officer safety' and 'officers can't know every law'. Even the officers there speaking to the OC-ers will (SEEMINGLY) not know applicable law.

    Afterwards they'll say 'we didn't exactly say THAT'.

    Bring a book or a DVD...

  7. #7
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    I have a question then. Who has told/allowed the HPD to go to this meeting and who is the spokesperson(s) and do they represent the brass and the working cop?

    If it's just a 'whitewash' or 'obfuscation' guy who sidesteps the issues and answers member questions using 'verbal judo' and not cites and ordinance numbers, is not aware of pre-emption and does not know the various important OC an FA cases, case law, then it will be a frustrating and colossal WoT.

    LEOs are well-versed in this kind of badinage and will sidestep and tapdance and genuflect and deflect and beat around the bush, and do it well. You'll hear 'totality of circumstances' and 'officer safety' and 'officers can't know every law'. Even the officers there speaking to the OC-ers will (SEEMINGLY) not know applicable law.

    Afterwards they'll say 'we didn't exactly say THAT'.

    Bring a book or a DVD...
    So you're saying not to bother, right Badger?

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    So you're saying not to bother, right Badger?
    No, he's saying that he expects this to be a waste of his time because he has preconceived notions about what will happen, as well as that he wonders how the poor sap(s) that are assigned to the detail got picked - meaning what screw-ups are they paying the price for? Either that or he's saying that whoever shows up representing the Henrico PD is the toady apologist who will not even know what he's talking about.

    I've been wanting to meet Mr. Badger Johnson for quite a while now. Maybe after the meeting we can go somewhere and get better aquainted so I can see if some of my perceptions about him hold up to in-person scrutiny. I'll even pay for the sodapop or coffee if that will entice him.

    stay safe.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Well, the officers who came from the Fairfax County police force included a beat cop, an academy instructor, and two or three others. They knew their policies and procedures, though I don't think they had necessarily thought through the encounters from a citizen's point of view, and certainly not from an activist's viewpoint.

    But they weren't the guys who drew the short straw, that's for sure.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Henrico PD will have some 'splainin' to do at the meeting. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...111eleventy111!

    Of course there are other incidents that most likely will also be brought up for discussion, but the tazer-in-hand when confronting a group of guns is going to be the real item to watch. Too bad the library does not allow popcorn.

    stay safe.

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Henrico PD will have some 'splainin' to do at the meeting. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...111eleventy111!

    Of course there are other incidents that most likely will also be brought up for discussion, but the tazer-in-hand when confronting a group of guns is going to be the real item to watch. Too bad the library does not allow popcorn.

    stay safe.
    Yup!

  12. #12
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Either that or he's saying that whoever shows up representing the Henrico PD is the toady apologist who will not even know what he's talking about.

    I've been wanting to meet Mr. Badger Johnson for quite a while now. Maybe after the meeting we can go somewhere and get better aquainted so I can see if some of my perceptions about him hold up to in-person scrutiny. I'll even pay for the sodapop or coffee if that will entice him.

    stay safe.
    I watched the VCDL video and they were pretty good answers and polite and nice LEOs but they still used the standard lines on 'stop and ID' while on foot and didn't seem to know what RAS and SAF meant.

    On the latter comment why do you want to meet Mr Badger and why would he want to meet a guy with questionable underwear markings, Mr Skidmark? Be aware my girlfriend haz a handgunz.

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    On the latter comment why do you want to meet Mr Badger and why would he want to meet a guy with questionable underwear markings, Mr Skidmark? Be aware my girlfriend haz a handgunz.
    Two grumpy old goats in the same room

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    I watched the VCDL video and they were pretty good answers and polite and nice LEOs but they still used the standard lines on 'stop and ID' while on foot and didn't seem to know what RAS and SAF meant.

    That's the problem with that meeting Badger. No one called them low down and high smelling. They all wanted to talk Cop with them and all the Cops had to do was be "Likable".

    I am reminded of Luke 4:5-8, when dealing with "Likable Cops":

    4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
    4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
    4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
    4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan:

    Not...Golly Bill Satan, can I really ride along. I have a Glock too
    Last edited by peter nap; 06-06-2011 at 09:20 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    On the latter comment why do you want to meet Mr Badger and why would he want to meet a guy with questionable underwear markings, Mr Skidmark? Be aware my girlfriend haz a handgunz.
    See, one of the reasons you might want to meet me is to find out that your conception of the origin of my handle is wrong, and learn where it really comes from.

    You haz a handgunz. Your GF has a handgunz. I haz a handgunz. All God's chilluns gots a handgunz! And your point is?

    As to my wanting to meet Mr. Badger - the desire grows by leaps and bounds. He says a lot but then thinks it not worth his while to show up and see if his notions will be confirmed. He is offered hints about steering the "conversation" towards getting the cops to see their behavior from "our" eyes and declines the opportunity. I want to find out why.

    stay safe.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Two grumpy old goats in the same room
    Well, when we first met at Surrey House there were a LOT of preconceived misconceptions dismissed.

    A couple which were reinforced, but most of the negative ones dismissed I should say.
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    See, one of the reasons you might want to meet me is to find out that your conception of the origin of my handle is wrong, and learn where it really comes from.
    You know, come to think of it I STILL don't know.

    But, as humorous as Mr. Johnson's presumption comes off, I always got the impression of someone slamming on brakes. Of course, in some instances, both references might apply!
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    Well, when we first met at Surrey House there were a LOT of preconceived misconceptions dismissed.

    A couple which were reinforced, but most of the negative ones dismissed I should say.You know, come to think of it I STILL don't know.

    But, as humorous as Mr. Johnson's presumption comes off, I always got the impression of someone slamming on brakes. Of course, in some instances, both references might apply!
    You'll enjoy the story...and knowing Skid, understand it

  18. #18
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    See, one of the reasons you might want to meet me is to find out that your conception of the origin of my handle is wrong, and learn where it really comes from.

    You haz a handgunz. Your GF has a handgunz. I haz a handgunz. All God's chilluns gots a handgunz! And your point is?
    It's as broad a joke as I can make, designed to elicit a chuckle, likewise the undies joke. I'm sure it means you skidded to a stop in an Abrams Fighting vehicle and captured a bunch of Germans or something. No problem, thanks for your service.

    As to my wanting to meet Mr. Badger - the desire grows by leaps and bounds. He says a lot but then thinks it not worth his while to show up and see if his notions will be confirmed. He is offered hints about steering the "conversation" towards getting the cops to see their behavior from "our" eyes and declines the opportunity. I want to find out why.

    stay safe.
    The why is that I might be able to orate, argue, cite legal precedent, but the HPD has it's own agenda and it's not treating OC-ers better, it's figuring out the 'opponent' (the OC-er citizen) as to better put him in his place. They are not very friendly so despite winning any argument, it won't change the way they operate. So why waste one's time. Why be so naive that we can make a change in the rank and file or the top mgmt just by meeting them. Isn't it better to operate below the radar for now? I hope it will make a difference if a bunch of old coots in long beards and Hawaiian shirts jump up and interrupt their carefully gauged remarks - but IME it won't.

    Thanks for the kind reply.
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 06-06-2011 at 12:42 PM.

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    See, one of the reasons you might want to meet me is to find out that your conception of the origin of my handle is wrong, and learn where it really comes from.

    You haz a handgunz. Your GF has a handgunz. I haz a handgunz. All God's chilluns gots a handgunz! And your point is?

    As to my wanting to meet Mr. Badger - the desire grows by leaps and bounds. He says a lot but then thinks it not worth his while to show up and see if his notions will be confirmed. He is offered hints about steering the "conversation" towards getting the cops to see their behavior from "our" eyes and declines the opportunity. I want to find out why.

    stay safe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    It's as broad a joke as I can make, designed to elicit a chuckle, likewise the undies joke. I'm sure it means you skidded to a stop in an Abrams Fighting vehicle and captured a bunch of Germans or something. No problem, thanks for your service.

    The why is that I might be able to orate, argue, cite legal precedent, but the HPD has it's own agenda and it's not treating OC-ers better, it's figuring out the 'opponent' (the OC-er citizen) as to better put him in his place. They are not very friendly so despite winning any argument, it won't change the way they operate. So why waste one's time. Why be so naive that we can make a change in the rank and file or the top mgmt just by meeting them. Isn't it better to operate below the radar for now? I hope it will make a difference if a bunch of old coots in long beards and Hawaiian shirts jump up and interrupt their carefully gauged remarks - but IME it won't.

    Thanks for the kind reply.
    I won't spoil Skid's "skidmark" story by removing the bag from the cat.

    To the rest of the operating below the radar thing and "it won't change the way they operate", I disagree strongly. Education and positive interaction is as important (more?) than filing complaints or legal challenges - moreover it is free and virtually painless.

    VCDL as an organization, as well as individual members (we call them activists), regularly and routinely spend time cultivating and educating members of the community including LEA. VCDL recently held a meeting in NoVa with the largest LEA in the state attending - a seminar was put on for their benefit. PVC has a syllabus (constantly being improved) that was developed just for that purpose.

    Wed. evening we will meet at the Tuckaho Branch Library to exchange ideas with the Henrico PD. Open lines of communication and healthy exchange of ideas is what we hope to foster - it is a proven technique that does work. It surely is better than the "them vs us" philosophy. I welcome the opportunity and thank Henrico for their part in this effort.

    Each of us must decide if we are going to be part of the solution or part of the problem by abdicating our responsibilities to "let Mikie do it."

    Those that think there have not been great strides with Va. laws and LEO interaction either have not been around very long or are wearing blinders. The glass is filling, not draining.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Each of us must decide if we are going to be part of the solution or part of the problem by abdicating our responsibilities to "let Mikey do it."
    It's why we're in the mess we're in to begin with.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Regular Member Doogie's Avatar
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    Hi all...

    Long time lurker finally signed up. I haven't found details on this Henrico meeting except what Grapeshot posted. Can ya'll just verify for me that it's Wednesday the 8th,1900 hrs @ the Tuckahoe Library.

    Thanks in advance.

    Doogie

  22. #22
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    I'm sure it means you skidded to a stop in an Abrams Fighting vehicle and captured a bunch of Germans or something. .
    A bunch of Germans?

    Hell, the story I heard was that it was Kaiser Wilhelm II himself!
    James Reynolds

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  23. #23
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Wed. evening we will meet at the Tuckaho Branch Library to exchange ideas with the Henrico PD. Open lines of communication and healthy exchange of ideas is what we hope to foster - it is a proven technique that does work. It surely is better than the "them vs us" philosophy. I welcome the opportunity and thank Henrico for their part in this effort.

    Each of us must decide if we are going to be part of the solution or part of the problem by abdicating our responsibilities to "let Mikie do it."
    Here's how I think the HPD and others might change their outlook on this and other civilian empowerment.

    1. Change has to come from the top down
    2. They have to empower the street cop by giving them education ops and more pay
    3. Hire non-testosterone driven cops who don't have to get all up and fussy if someone else is taking their own safety into their hands
    4. More education on the laws
    5. Allowing video and audio recording because there should be nothing to hide
    6. Not treating citizens as predators - old dudes walking their dog with OC should NOT be stopped and hassled just for the 'joy of it'.

    Things will NOT be changed by arguing with select LEO reps at a meeting which will NEVER filter down to the street cop and never sit well with the top brass.

    But having said that, good luck in your attempt - it's laudable.
    HTH
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 06-06-2011 at 05:32 PM.

  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doogie View Post
    Hi all...

    Long time lurker finally signed up. I haven't found details on this Henrico meeting except what Grapeshot posted. Can ya'll just verify for me that it's Wednesday the 8th,1900 hrs @ the Tuckahoe Library.

    Thanks in advance.

    Doogie
    VCDL meeting is Wed., June 8th at 7:00 PM

    Location: Tuckahoe Branch Libarary off Parham Rd. See link & map following:
    http://www.henricolibrary.org/Libs/tu.html

    Agenda: Interact/discuss with Henrico PD on how they handle MWAG calls

    Fellowship before meeting begins at 6:30 PM. Following the meeting we generally retire to a local restaurant - Topeka's? - for debriefing and continued fellowship.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Sesrun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doogie View Post
    Hi all...

    Long time lurker finally signed up. I haven't found details on this Henrico meeting except what Grapeshot posted. Can ya'll just verify for me that it's Wednesday the 8th,1900 hrs @ the Tuckahoe Library.

    Thanks in advance.

    Doogie
    Check out VCDL and signup for their VA-Alert if you want. That's where the details are regarding this meeting.

    From http://blog.vcdl.org/index.php?/arch....html#extended
    **************************************************
    4. Henrico Police to do presentation on "man with a gun" calls at VCDL meeting in Richmond on June 8th
    **************************************************

    We have been working with the Henrico PD for them to make a presentation on how they handle "man with a gun" calls. They will also answer other questions you might have about their operation.

    Mark your calendars for Wednesday, June 8th, from 7:00 PM to 8:30 PM. We will meet at :

    Tuckahoe Library
    1901 Starling Drive
    Henrico, VA 23229

    Fellowship will start at 6:30 PM. We will go to a local restaurant after the meeting for further fellowship.

    A similar event was held with Fairfax PD earlier this year and we had a big turn-out. People really liked the opportunity to be able to interact with the men and women who patrol our streets and protect our communities.

    As with all VCDL membership meetings, they are open to the public, so bring friends, family and co-workers.

    See you there!

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