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Bad LEO encounter in Holly Springs.

mjd1978

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2011
Messages
33
Location
Mississippi
I had my first bad LEO encounter last night. I was pumping gas and noticed that 5 officers were dealing with a drunk couple across the parking lot. I was minding my own business when one of the officers approached me .
officer: I noticed that you are carrying a gun.
Me: Yes Sir I am
Officer: Why do you have a gun?
Me: It is my Constitutional right to carry a weapon for self defense
Officer: Do you have a permit?
Me: Yes Sir ( I show it to him)
Officer: You can't carry it in the open like that, it has to be concealed
Me: No sir. The law states that if it is concealed whole or in part that I must have a permit.
Officer: Your gun isn't concealed
Me: Ms. courts say that a gun in a holster is partially concealed therefore legal with a permit.
Officer: Only officers can carry that way. You have to conceal it.
Me: (pulling my shirt over the gun) There, it's concealed. You happy now? Do me a favor and show me the law that says I can't openly carry.

The officer gets on his phone and finds some website that he says is a law enforcement website. He shows me something about " what to do if a person is carrying a concealed weapon" . Guess he was just looking for the word concealed. I just said " Whatever you say" and left.

I need to find the ruling that says a gun in a holster is partially concealed. Anyone know where it is?
 

Daylen

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
I had my first bad LEO encounter last night. I was pumping gas and noticed that 5 officers were dealing with a drunk couple across the parking lot. I was minding my own business when one of the officers approached me .
officer: I noticed that you are carrying a gun.
Me: Yes Sir I am
Officer: Why do you have a gun?
Me: It is my Constitutional right to carry a weapon for self defense
Officer: Do you have a permit?
Me: Yes Sir ( I show it to him)
Officer: You can't carry it in the open like that, it has to be concealed
Me: No sir. The law states that if it is concealed whole or in part that I must have a permit.
Officer: Your gun isn't concealed
Me: Ms. courts say that a gun in a holster is partially concealed therefore legal with a permit.
Officer: Only officers can carry that way. You have to conceal it.
Me: (pulling my shirt over the gun) There, it's concealed. You happy now? Do me a favor and show me the law that says I can't openly carry.

The officer gets on his phone and finds some website that he says is a law enforcement website. He shows me something about " what to do if a person is carrying a concealed weapon" . Guess he was just looking for the word concealed. I just said " Whatever you say" and left.

I need to find the ruling that says a gun in a holster is partially concealed. Anyone know where it is?

NOOOOOO!!! That is very counterproductive and very unhelpful to OC! Point out that ONLY a firearm concealed in whole or part NEEDS a permit. Meaning if he says its not concealed then you do not even need a permit or license to carry it. Cite the constitution! If he thinks carrying openly in a holster is not concealed please don't try to convince him otherwise for it is wrong and very unhelpful.

Other than that I think you handled yourself very well. Its too bad he was misinformed about "only officers can carry like that".
 

Daylen

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
Start here:
"As the Mississippi courts have said that a handgun in a holster is concealed in part, a License to Carry a Concealed Pistol or Revolver is required to openly carry a handgun in a holster in Mississippi."
http://www.opencarry.org/ms.html

Then read here:
http://www.mscode.com/free/statutes/97/037/0001.htm

And
http://www.mscode.com/free/statutes/45/009/0101.htm

The courts have not said that. One Judge has said that. Please do not perpetuate that myth that open carry is concealed carry in MS. Its good to have the permit, it can potentially keep a person out of jail if others are misinformed about MS law and MS constitution, but such a statement goes against our constitution.
 

autosurgeon

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2008
Messages
3,831
Location
Lawrence, Michigan, United States
I bet he knew you were legal.. he was just asserting his authority. Next time don't cover up also know your states applicable statutes front and back.

Finally say as little as possible remember anything you say will be used against you so the less that passes your lip the better!

Sent from my Droid Flipside using Tapatalk
 

MSRebel54

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
238
Location
Northern Mississippi, ,
You guys KNOW I have to weigh in on this don't you? I'm agreeing with Daylen, if it's not "concealed" make the OFFICER say it's concealed. Gently remind him that it is not illegal to carry an 'unconcealed' side arm in MS. And if he insists, ask him to call his supervisor, and respectfully tell him you've studied the law, and that you want a supervisor to make the decision. Sooner or later they're going to go about their business, OR inform you that your weapon is 'partially concealed'. At which point you show him a license to 'partially conceal' it.

No disrespect intended, but most LEO's are not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, when it comes to the law. But at the same time you can't hold court on the side of the street, so you have to handle yourself appropriately.

Make the cop TELL you it's concealed. Otherwise ask him are you violating any law by carrying unconcealed. And what law is that officer? Be nice, don't get in their face, that will only cause trouble. We have the law on our side, and if we know how to use it, we can back them down EVERY time. (except for the corrupt ones).

We're having an OC get together in Oxford in August, Holly Springs is not that far away, I'd love for you (the original poster) to join us! See the other thread.
 

mjd1978

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2011
Messages
33
Location
Mississippi
This is some confusing stuff! Section 97-37-1 states----Except as otherwise provided in section 45-9-101, any person who carries a weapon concealed in whole or in part upon conviction shall be charged. I know that section 45-9-101 is the section that deals with permits. which I take it to mean that if you have a permit you can carry concealed in whole or in part.

This statement in section 45-9-101 is what throws me for a loop.

Nothing in this section shall be construed to allow the open and unconcealed carrying of any deadly weapon as described in section 97-37-1.

Does this kill my case for open carry?
 

MSRebel54

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
238
Location
Northern Mississippi, ,
Nothing in this section shall be construed to allow the open and unconcealed carrying of any deadly weapon as described in section 97-37-1.

Does this kill my case for open carry?

Absolutely not! That language is meaningless. It means nothing. When you are carrying openly you are actually carrying concealed via 97-37-1, which you now have a permit to do via 45-9-101.

I know, it's ridiculous, but you've got to play their game until we get it changed. But seriously, don't worry about the above quote, because it is absolutely meaningless in Mississippi law. It just says that 45-9-101 does not ADVOCATE or encourage that you carry openly. Again, it's meaningless. It just says, "I'm not going to approve of this".

No worries.
 

Daylen

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
This is some confusing stuff! Section 97-37-1 states----Except as otherwise provided in section 45-9-101, any person who carries a weapon concealed in whole or in part upon conviction shall be charged. I know that section 45-9-101 is the section that deals with permits. which I take it to mean that if you have a permit you can carry concealed in whole or in part.

This statement in section 45-9-101 is what throws me for a loop.

Nothing in this section shall be construed to allow the open and unconcealed carrying of any deadly weapon as described in section 97-37-1.

Does this kill my case for open carry?

It sounds confusing if someone is looking for permission to carry openly and unconcealed. That statement is simply clearly defining 45-9-101 as dealing with concealed carry thus eliminating any constitutional contradiction. For no regulation nor prohibition of openly carried and unconcealed weapons is allowed by the constitution.

It does not kill the case for open carry, it strengthens and highlights its constitutional protection. Just remember even the law admits that permits do not have anything to do with open carry. A permit can be useful if a LEO is confused and thinks openly carrying in a holster is concealed carry.
 

Daylen

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
I bet he knew you were legal.. he was just asserting his authority. Next time don't cover up also know your states applicable statutes front and back.

Finally say as little as possible remember anything you say will be used against you so the less that passes your lip the better!

Sent from my Droid Flipside using Tapatalk

I disagree very strongly, he very well might have kept himself from being arrested by covering up. If after stating the law and that he is not violating the law the cop wants to assert his authority and say something as simple as "you can't carry like that", an arrest might be his next move, which would be bad for the carrier and potentially bad for the rest of us in MS. If covering up makes him happy I'm all for doing so and then stopping by the the office to file a complaint. Foreseeable arrests are the dumbest arrests for if you can see it coming you can avoid it.
 

DKSuddeth

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
833
Location
Bedford, Texas, USA
The courts have not said that. One Judge has said that. Please do not perpetuate that myth that open carry is concealed carry in MS. Its good to have the permit, it can potentially keep a person out of jail if others are misinformed about MS law and MS constitution, but such a statement goes against our constitution.

That's all fine and well, but do you have any cites to authority declaring that a handgun in a holster is NOT a partially concealed weapon, in whole or in part?
 

usamarshal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
251
Location
Ohio
Mississippi laws are retarded...haha...my head just exploded reading there codes.
 

Daylen

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
That's all fine and well, but do you have any cites to authority declaring that a handgun in a holster is NOT a partially concealed weapon, in whole or in part?

Do you have any cite to authority with a case where a person carrying a handgun in a holster was convicted under 97-37-1 or not having a permit on him under 45-9-101? Or are you referring to the weak opinion that tries to establish hearsay as law? If the latter please don't continue perpetuating the hearsay we are having to fight against here.

The reason a handgun in a holster can not be considered concealed in part is simple. If it is then carrying such would be prohibited in general, by 97-37-1, and when allowed it is under heavy state regulation, by 45-9-101. If this is the case then

The right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person, or property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall not be called in question, but the Legislature may regulate or forbid carrying concealed weapons.

is completely meaningless and worthless so why bother putting it in? Such is not the case as the code in many places recognizes that there is a way to OC. A holster is the least concealed way to carry without holding the pistol in ones hand and that can not be the only constitutional way to carry.

Please read the law, including the MS constitution before posting hearsay it is most unhelpful to MS. I imagine some of you are looking at the opencarry.org map and thinking that is the furthest research that needs to be done. If so you are as wrong as the information on that map; just because something is published on the internet does not make it correct.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Please read the law, including the MS constitution before posting hearsay it is most unhelpful to MS. I imagine some of you are looking at the opencarry.org map and thinking that is the furthest research that needs to be done. If so you are as wrong as the information on that map; just because something is published on the internet does not make it correct.

Apologize for my contribution to exactly that in my post (#2 above) My bad. :(
 

MSRebel54

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
238
Location
Northern Mississippi, ,
Do you have any cite to authority with a case where a person carrying a handgun in a holster was convicted under 97-37-1 or not having a permit on him under 45-9-101? Or are you referring to the weak opinion that tries to establish hearsay as law? If the latter please don't continue perpetuating the hearsay we are having to fight against here.

The reason a handgun in a holster can not be considered concealed in part is simple. If it is then carrying such would be prohibited in general, by 97-37-1, and when allowed it is under heavy state regulation, by 45-9-101. If this is the case then

The right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person, or property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall not be called in question, but the Legislature may regulate or forbid carrying concealed weapons.

I'm not sure where you're going here Daylen, you know there have been people convicted under 97-37-1 for "carrying concealed" without a permit, while carrying in a holster on their side. I can't pull one off the top of my head, but I'm sure that if I dug deep enough, I could come up with one.

I think the poster was simply fishing for information, i.e. is carrying in a holster 'partially concealed'? The answer is yes, if they want to charge you with it, it can be, and I'm very well aware of Article 3 Section 12. The 'or in part' is how they skirt the Constitutional mandate.

The law may defy reason, but reason can never defy the law. But I'm with you on the education part of it, people need to know what it is they're getting into, what the law is, and what their options are. And especially LEO's need to be educated on this. Until we get it changed, we have to deal with what we've got, no matter how silly it is.

So if I read your post right, I'm going to have to disagree and say that carrying in a holster CAN BE 'concealed' under MS law, and has been used as such before. Having a permit will certainly throw a thorn in that, but if you don't have one, they can pretty much have their way with you.
 

MSRebel54

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
238
Location
Northern Mississippi, ,
I disagree very strongly, he very well might have kept himself from being arrested by covering up. If after stating the law and that he is not violating the law the cop wants to assert his authority and say something as simple as "you can't carry like that", an arrest might be his next move, which would be bad for the carrier and potentially bad for the rest of us in MS. If covering up makes him happy I'm all for doing so and then stopping by the the office to file a complaint. Foreseeable arrests are the dumbest arrests for if you can see it coming you can avoid it.

Agreed on the behavior part. But doesn't the LEO have to have at least an IDEA of what law the person might be breaking before he can make an arrest? I mean he's got to be charged with something. The officer can't just say you're under arrest because I said so. That don't fly too well in court. Next, they'll be arresting people because they don't like how you look.
 

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
NOOOOOO!!! That is very counterproductive and very unhelpful to OC! Point out that ONLY a firearm concealed in whole or part NEEDS a permit. Meaning if he says its not concealed then you do not even need a permit or license to carry it. Cite the constitution! If he thinks carrying openly in a holster is not concealed please don't try to convince him otherwise for it is wrong and very unhelpful.

Other than that I think you handled yourself very well. Its too bad he was misinformed about "only officers can carry like that".

Exactly on point
 
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