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Thread: Arguing citizen rights in regards to Church carry

  1. #1
    McX
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    Arguing citizen rights in regards to Church carry

    This thursday our Church elders are meeting to set a policy regarding Church Carry. It sounds like they are miscontruing some Bible verses to fit against my rights. stuff like; Bible says dont turn the Church into a den of theives, it is a santuary of peace. Stuff like that. I could use some help to firm up my arguement, quotes, examples i can point to. i'd appreciate all the help i can get. I WILL be attending this meeting!

  2. #2
    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    If JC would have been packing.....never mind.
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

  3. #3
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    If you Google "church shootings" you'll come up with plenty of well-known an lesser-known examples of shootings in and around churches.

    You know, after Ben Franklin invented the lightning rod, churches were of the opinion that God would protect them and they didn't need any device to protect their church from lightning. Being often the tallest structure in town back then, it only took a number of churches burning up due to lightning strikes before practical preventative measures of installing lightning rods seemed a more effective and reliable method. Lo and behold, God didn't seem to have any reluctance to violate the "no lightning zone" of a church and I doubt criminals would have any greater reluctance to violate a "no guns" zone of a church. Which church banning firearms wants to be the next example of how little effectiveness there is to simply having "a policy and a sign?"
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    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  4. #4
    Centurion
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    Here are some ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    This thursday our Church elders are meeting to set a policy regarding Church Carry. It sounds like they are miscontruing some Bible verses to fit against my rights. stuff like; Bible says dont turn the Church into a den of theives, it is a santuary of peace. Stuff like that. I could use some help to firm up my arguement, quotes, examples i can point to. i'd appreciate all the help i can get. I WILL be attending this meeting!
    There is an essay on Christianity and the Second Amendment here:

    http://www.keepandbeararms.com/infor...tem.asp?ID=131

  5. #5
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    This thursday our Church elders are meeting to set a policy regarding Church Carry. It sounds like they are miscontruing some Bible verses to fit against my rights. stuff like; Bible says dont turn the Church into a den of theives, it is a santuary of peace. Stuff like that. I could use some help to firm up my arguement, quotes, examples i can point to. i'd appreciate all the help i can get. I WILL be attending this meeting!
    Just do a Google on "guns and the bible" and you will have plenty of verses to counter their verses, plus the attachment I sent has listed the known church massacres.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by davegran; 06-05-2011 at 10:31 AM.
    Dave
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    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Cool There Are Many Verses In The Bible For Self Defense....

    I didn't write scripture, only my basic understanding of them....there are many more than what I posted for self defense and standing up and protecting yourself and one's family.

    Exodus 22:2-3 "Self Defense"

    Proverbs 25:26 "Self Defense"

    1 Timothy 5:8 "Work For Your Living"

    Psalm 144:1 "Train For War And Battle"

    Mathew 15 and Mark 7 "Religious leaders opposing the execution of those deserving of death"

    Ezekiel 18:20b

    Luke 22:36 "Buy a sword"

    Mathew 26:52-54

  7. #7
    McX
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    thanks guys, keep it coming, i am pouring over this stuff, i will be fighting the politically correct, and as you can see they are using Bible verses out of context already. i intend to bring a copy of the constution and argue these points as well;

    the constitution is the supreme law of the land, the amendment that guarentees religious freedom, and freedom of speech, and yet the Church seeks to infringe on my 2nd amendment rights, in a place that exists because of the constitution?!!!!!!

    will the Church guarentee me absolute safety, and repay me if a event occurs, where i am in Church disarmed, and the criminal element(s) attack the Church?!

    this has truly got my dander up!

  8. #8
    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    Just do a Google on "guns and the bible" and you will have plenty of verses to counter their verses, plus the attachment I sent has listed the known church massacres.
    thanks Dave, this is going to help alot!

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Here Are A Few More....

    The Catholic Church has an official statement about self defense called the "Catechism" which outlines a consistent Christian view.

    Section 2263 of the Catechism states that using deadly force in the "legitimate defense of persons and societies" is not murder.

    Section 2264 states clearly that you have a right to life and when you defend it you are not guilty of murder even if you are forced to kill your aggressor.

    Section 2265 basically states that armed self defense is mandatory in some cases.

    Also take a look at section 2242 about evil governments and peoples obligations to NOT follow laws that violate fundamental rights.

    Read section 2243 completely so you get the correct meaning of it.

  10. #10
    McX
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    i also intend to appeal to their common sense, if they have any; the Church during the service collects large sums of cash. what if the criminal element discovers this, and hits upon the idea of; let's rob the Church!

  11. #11
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    Remember the disciples carried swords. Peter tried to whack the guards head off after they came for him in the garden.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Big Dipper's Avatar
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    You can also find some articles on the "sanctity of self defense" at JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION
    OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP - http://jpfo.org/

    They were also the producers of the video "No Guns for African Americanes" and how that was the genesis of most of our current gun control laws.

  13. #13
    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksks View Post
    Remember the disciples carried swords. Peter tried to whack the guards head off after they came for him in the garden.
    probably would have been successful if he had had a .45

    it will be midnight in the garden of good and evil, and from where i stand, i see evil.
    Last edited by McX; 06-05-2011 at 11:26 AM.

  14. #14
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    Self defense is 100% supported by scripture. Anybody who attempts to say otherwise does NOT know the scriptures. I would therefore not trust them to get other parts of scripture correct, either.

    People say "Jesus didn't carry a gun so you shouldn't either". Well, guess what, Jesus didn't need to carry a gun, or a sword, or a dagger, or any other physical thing. Matthew 26:53 tells us why (while Jesus was being arrested) "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?". Jesus was the father and had all the father's power. Why would he need a sword when nothing is impossible for him to do? It would certainly have been easier to counter those nay-sayers today had Jesus demonstrated carrying a sword, but there really would be no point to him doing so.

    Don't let Matthew 26:52 confuse your elders either. Context, context, context!

  15. #15
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Luke 22:36 He (Jesus) said to them, "But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one."
    Last edited by oak1971; 06-05-2011 at 06:38 PM.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    http://www.youtube.com/user/ptmccain

    He is a pastor in the LCMS who is also pro-firearms.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  17. #17
    McX
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    win some, lose some; after a heated email exchange with the ' powers that be' within my Church, i learned their no gun policy implementation was in direct relation to my insisting my right of carry be allowed there. the anti-gun position is intrenched, and quite a ways up the food chain there. any arguements i presented were futile. so i voted with my feet, tendered my resignation, and will now seek another Church that recognizes my rights in our locale.

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    Only one arguement when it comes to self defense.

    IT's A God Givin Right!

  19. #19
    McX
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    Hey! we shouldnt criticize them! i'm sure their no gun policy will stop all crime and criminals at the entrance!

  20. #20
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Wait a minute, I thought they had a school on site? If so, it's a moot point, isn't it?

    I'd still be upset but can they even legally issue permission?

    What denomination is this church?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    win some, lose some; after a heated email exchange with the ' powers that be' within my Church, i learned their no gun policy implementation was in direct relation to my insisting my right of carry be allowed there. the anti-gun position is intrenched, and quite a ways up the food chain there. any arguements i presented were futile. so i voted with my feet, tendered my resignation, and will now seek another Church that recognizes my rights in our locale.
    Sorry to hear that. I hope that you find a church that will not take away your right to worship and carry.

  22. #22
    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    I think its time you find a more scriptural based church...Doing so, im sure youll find it to be much less PC...and more willing to listen to logic, common sense and scripture...

  23. #23
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    I haven't tried at my church. I hope your search goes well.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  24. #24
    Regular Member LR Yote 312's Avatar
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    McX,
    Hve you looked into the Church of the Great Outdoors?

    Cant think of too many members that are not armed in some way (rifle,pistol or bow).
    Dont have to look very far to see the Beauty of The Great Spirit's work.
    Farther in (the woods) ya go it usually more peaceful.

    LR Yote
    *NOTE: No Longer under the tyranny of Milwaukee County.


    Watch your thoughts; they become words.
    Watch your words; they become actions.
    Watch your actions; they become habits.
    Watch your habits; they become character.
    Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
    - Frank Outlaw

  25. #25
    Regular Member cleveland's Avatar
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    Perhaps your gun doesn't fit their interpretation of Gods will. As I understand God's will, God does not like the weak and ignorant. After all, they tend to die sooner then the strong and prepared. That's just my person view.

    Best of luck with finding a new place to worship.

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