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Thread: Dancing fools

  1. #1
    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    Dancing fools

    Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them.

    Yesterday a bunch more of these idiots sought to provoke the cops yet again by having a mass "dance-in". The Park Police were made to look like fools as they made no arrests but rather just quietly shut the Memorial down (thus depriving folks who had saved for years to come to the Nation's Capital the right to enjoy and reflect upon the meaning of the Memorial).

    Some of these jerks hung around the grounds to be interviewed by the press (naturally). One guy held up a copy of the Constitution and said he had been charged with "demonstrating without a permit". He then held up his copy of the Constitution and said:

    "I already have my permit. It's right here in the First Amendment!" Well.

    Most if not all these "free spirits" would blanch if someone were to visit the Jefferson Memorial, not being disruptive in the least, but OC-ing in order to defend himself and/or his family (knowing that criminals have recently taken to attacking tourists); and upon being arrested held up a copy of the Constitution and said "Here's my gun permit! It's right here in the Second Amendment!"

    What's more disruptive? A bunch of clowns causing a ruckus and distracting the solemnity of the Jefferson Memorial - and posing tripping and other hazards to the mild-mannered tourists to boot - OR some guy with a legal firearm secured to his side in a quality holster, quietly explaining the history enshrined in the Memorial to his loved one(s)??

    I guess we all know the answer. The idiot dancing fools knew they faced at most a small fine and maybe a bit of rough treatment for resisting arrest. A gun owner who excersised HIS rights would be locked up in the hellhole DC Jail and wind up with a felony record.

    This, in the face of the fact that while the Constitution does NOT specifically state that the right of the People to dance anywhere they please shall not be infringed, it DOES say that about the RTKBA!!

    IN the face of this, the very same people who defied the law and danced anyway, claiming a non-existant "Constitutional protection" are the very people who would be hollering for the head of some "dangerous nut" for exercising a very existant, SPECIFICALLY CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED right.

    Words truly fail me, except of course for cuss words

  2. #2
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I must respectfully, but STRONGLY disagree with you on this one.

    First off, saying that the organizer of this event--Adam Kokesh--is some sort of milquetoast leftie is just flat out wrong--he is a decorated USMC veteran who served in Iraq and fought in Fallujah. He was a Republican Congressional candidate in New Mexico. He is a patriot, a hero, and although he's much more of a free-spirited Libertarian than a party-line RINO Republican, he is certainly NOT a "left-wing weenie" by any stretch of the imagination...

    http://www.adamvstheman.com/about/about-adam-kokesh

    I applaud these protestors, just as I applaud ANYONE who uses creative means to fight back against the systematic dismantling of our Fundamental Human Rights. They may not be packing a big "Dirty Harry" style six-shooter to express their beliefs, but they STILL were taking a great risk--the risk of being beaten, arrested, and spending MONTHS in the US Court system--an ordeal that I think we all can agree is something to be avoided if possible.

    Using creative methods of civil disobedience that are peaceful--even if they look silly or nerdy--is a VERY powerful tool in this battle. By making the government show their tyranical hand--showing up with AR-15s and attack dogs to deal with a bunch of nery white suburbanites who are dancing like high school spazzes--they made a HUGE point, and I applaud that.

    Using absurdity to draw out the violent tendencies and grossly inappropriate shows of force that our government is becoming more and more willing to use will wake up WAY more people to the true nature of tyranny than handing out a million "Guns Save Lives" flyers ever will. Because even a nanny-state leftist can understand that bringing a "machine gun" and "attack dogs" to a dance party is just WAY over the top.

    Besides, Jefferson was a staunch defender of the Freedom of Expression, and was know to--during his Presidency--take up his fiddle and play, while encouraging his friends and staffers to dance in the White House, and the Capital.

    To say that dancing, singing, or playing music in the Jefferson Memorial somehow demeans the memory and solemnity of this structure is like saying pulling out a sketch pad and pencil in the Louvre somehow demeans the memory of DaVinci...

    After all, what good is a rEVOLution if it doesn't have dancing?...

    We need to think outside the box, folks. They wanted to have a peaceful protest of this ridiculous Park Service policy and it's equally ridiculous Court ruling which upheld it. They brought their iPods and their dancing shoes--and the US Park Service brought dogs, AR-15s, full riot gear, and set up tents to process the expected arrests (which never happened on the second event).

    I think that this event was a MASSIVE win for Free Speech and Freedom of Expression--it showed that our government has gone completely round the bend--and is completely willing to use the threats of LETHAL FORCE and imprisonment against people who want to do something as simple, as peaceful, and as joyful as DANCE.

    The only people who fear acts of love and joy are those who lack the capacity to experience those emotions--sociopaths. And sociopaths, boys and girls, are the type of people who are running this Nation. This event, I believe sent that message LOUD and CLEAR to much of the American public.

    Just because they aren't a bunch of "tough guys" with a bad-ass attitude does not mean they are not serious about the cause. Just because these folks don't live up to your own personal standard of what it means to be a bad ass patriot (whatever the **** THAT means) does not mean they were not successful, nor does it in any way demean the power of their actions.

    We spend a lot of time defending the 2A through OC, and through our legislative actions. A few of us here also devote a fair amount if time to 1A issues too. If the 1A isn't your pet project, then perhaps you should just let the people who are creative, innovative, and maybe even a little silly, absurdist, and wacky--do THAT work.

    'nuff sed...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 06-05-2011 at 08:59 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  3. #3
    Regular Member Funtimes's Avatar
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    Adam Kolkesh was the organizer of this event... he is pretty damn far away from "the leftists" attitude you are trying to sling.

    You are quite mistaken over this whole incident. Hell, I'm about as active as it could get for fighting gun control in Hawaii, and I would have attended this demonstration to dance in the TJ memorial.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    I must respectfully, but STRONGLY disagree with you on this one.

    First off, saying that the organizer of this event--Adam Kokesh--is some sort of milquetoast leftie is just flat out wrong--he is a decorated USMC veteran who served in Iraq and fought in Fallujah. He was a Republican Congressional candidate in New Mexico. He is a patriot, a hero, and although he's much more of a free-spirited Libertarian than a party-line RINO Republican, he is certainly NOT a "left-wing weenie" by any stretch of the imagination...

    http://www.adamvstheman.com/about/about-adam-kokesh

    I applaud these protestors, just as I applaud ANYONE who uses creative means to fight back against the systematic dismantling of our Fundamental Human Rights. They may not be packing a big "Dirty Harry" style six-shooter to express their beliefs, but they STILL were taking a great risk--the risk of being beaten, arrested, and spending MONTHS in the US Court system--an ordeal that I think we all can agree is something to be avoided if possible.

    Using creative methods of civil disobedience that are peaceful--even if they look silly or nerdy--is a VERY powerful tool in this battle. By making the government show their tyranical hand--showing up with AR-15s and attack dogs to deal with a bunch of nery white suburbanites who are dancing like high school spazzes--they made a HUGE point, and I applaud that.

    Using absurdity to draw out the violent tendencies and grossly inappropriate shows of force that our government is becoming more and more willing to use will wake up WAY more people to the true nature of tyranny than handing out a million "Guns Save Lives" flyers ever will. Because even a nanny-state leftist can understand that bringing a "machine gun" and "attack dogs" to a dance party is just WAY over the top.

    Besides, Jefferson was a staunch defender of the Freedom of Expression, and was know to--during his Presidency--take up his fiddle and play, while encouraging his friends and staffers to dance in the White House, and the Capital.

    To say that dancing, singing, or playing music in the Jefferson Memorial somehow demeans the memory and solemnity of this structure is like saying pulling out a sketch pad and pencil in the Louvre somehow demeans the memory of DaVinci...

    After all, what good is a rEVOLution if it doesn't have dancing?...

    We need to think outside the box, folks. They wanted to have a peaceful protest of this ridiculous Park Service policy and it's equally ridiculous Court ruling which upheld it. They brought their iPods and their dancing shoes--and the US Park Service brought dogs, AR-15s, full riot gear, and set up tents to process the expected arrests (which never happened on the second event).

    I think that this event was a MASSIVE win for Free Speech and Freedom of Expression--it showed that our government has gone completely round the bend--and is completely willing to use the threats of LETHAL FORCE and imprisonment against people who want to do something as simple, as peaceful, and as joyful as DANCE.

    The only people who fear acts of love and joy are those who lack the capacity to experience those emotions--sociopaths. And sociopaths, boys and girls, are the type of people who are running this Nation. This event, I believe sent that message LOUD and CLEAR to much of the American public.

    Just because they aren't a bunch of "tough guys" with a bad-ass attitude does not mean they are not serious about the cause. Just because these folks don't live up to your own personal standard of what it means to be a bad ass patriot (whatever the **** THAT means) does not mean they were not successful, nor does it in any way demean the power of their actions.

    We spend a lot of time defending the 2A through OC, and through our legislative actions. A few of us here also devote a fair amount if time to 1A issues too. If the 1A isn't your pet project, then perhaps you should just let the people who are creative, innovative, and maybe even a little silly, absurdist, and wacky--do THAT work.

    'nuff sed...
    I can only say... +1.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    All three of you completely miss my point, which is:

    1. The Law is the Law, which is why we don't OC in DC.
    2. These "protesters", (who included the founder of Code Pink) were breaking the law.
    3. The protestors' excuse was the "protest of an unjust and unconstitutional law"
    4. This time, they did not even get arrested, ticketed, etc.
    5. What is more unjust and unconstitutional than DC's gun laws?
    6. HOWEVER, if some folks were to conduct a "carry in", they would be ARRESTED for a FELONY.
    7. The RTKBA is SPECIFICALLY protected. The so-called "right to dance" is NOT.
    8. One of the protesters held up a copy of the Consstitution and said that it was his dancing permit.
    9. Good luck with telling a judge that the Constitution is your gun permit.
    10. Code Pink was involved with this, majorly so. How do you think this patently Leftist group feels about RTKBA?

    As regards this Rerpublican war hero, I thank him for his service. However, the ranks of highly decorated war heroes who have gone on to damage the Republic include Benedict Arnold and Tim McVeigh.

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    IN the face of this, the very same people who defied the law and danced anyway, claiming a non-existant "Constitutional protection" are the very people who would be hollering for the head of some "dangerous nut" for exercising a very existant, SPECIFICALLY CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED right.
    And it's less widely "allowed" than dancing or singing near a national memorial.

    If code pink was involved, I can see why the feds are on crackdown. Code pink is about as close to going overboard is possible before actually doing so.

    And McVeigh wasn't "highly decorated." He received a Bronze Star, but one decoration in the upper ranks doesn't make one "highly decorated."
    Last edited by since9; 06-06-2011 at 09:08 AM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Funtimes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    All three of you completely miss my point, which is:

    1. The Law is the Law, which is why we don't OC in DC.

    The law is subject to interpretation and change. You don't OC in D.C. -- yet. We as citizens should not honor unconstitutional laws. However, it really is a risk vs. reward scenario; most people are not going to risk everything, for such little gain. That said, I know countless people in Hawaii who conceal firearms (for self defense) and have no permit to carry. Many criminals carry out of necessity, and could care less about the repercussions.


    2. These "protesters", (who included the founder of Code Pink) were breaking the law.
    3. The protestors' excuse was the "protest of an unjust and unconstitutional law"

    Dancing is expression, and expression is covered under the 1st amendment. Blacks in the 1960's broke the law and were arrested. This doesn't mean those laws were right and just, and it doesn't mean the civil rights activists were wrong.


    4. This time, they did not even get arrested, ticketed, etc.
    That is because the police chief realized it would be a stupid waste of time, and he didn't want to violate their 1st amendment rights -- regardless of what the judge said.
    Now, I wouldn't want to be the (one) person dancing their in a coming week, as they will probably get ticketed and arrested. Adam Kokesh published the phone call from the Chief of Police, who was asking him how he could help support his First Amendment Rights.


    5. What is more unjust and unconstitutional than DC's gun laws?
    There are not different levels of unconstitutional. Something either is, or is not, a violation of the rights set forth in the constitution. The answer would be: there are things equally unjust and unconstitutional, but not more.


    6. HOWEVER, if some folks were to conduct a "carry in", they would be ARRESTED for a FELONY.
    That is the times, its just a matter of what you are willing to sacrifice. Blacks in the late 1800's still carried; and for that action, they were beaten, jailed, disarmed, raped, and/or murdered.

    7. The RTKBA is SPECIFICALLY protected. The so-called "right to dance" is NOT.
    Expression is covered under the first amendment.

    8. One of the protesters held up a copy of the Consstitution and said that it was his dancing permit.
    See 7.

    9. Good luck with telling a judge that the Constitution is your gun permit.
    It might work for the Maryland case. I guess we will find out when SCOTUS takes cert.

    10. Code Pink was involved with this, majorly so. How do you think this patently Leftist group feels about RTKBA? Who cares what another organization thinks about the RTKBA? They are an anti-war group, obviously they probably are not fond of guns. Further, I don't see how Code Pink was majorly behind it. Hell, if anything, you should be blaming Facebook lol.
    Added some responses in bold.

  8. #8
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Freedom is freedom, whether dancing or going armed. Denying both or either is an affront to that freedom.

    They faced arrest for dancing. You would face arrest for carrying there. Which is nobler action or words?
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Bobarino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    All three of you completely miss my point, which is:

    1. The Law is the Law, which is why we don't OC in DC.
    2. These "protesters", (who included the founder of Code Pink) were breaking the law.
    3. The protestors' excuse was the "protest of an unjust and unconstitutional law"
    4. This time, they did not even get arrested, ticketed, etc.
    5. What is more unjust and unconstitutional than DC's gun laws?
    6. HOWEVER, if some folks were to conduct a "carry in", they would be ARRESTED for a FELONY.
    7. The RTKBA is SPECIFICALLY protected. The so-called "right to dance" is NOT.
    8. One of the protesters held up a copy of the Consstitution and said that it was his dancing permit.
    9. Good luck with telling a judge that the Constitution is your gun permit.
    10. Code Pink was involved with this, majorly so. How do you think this patently Leftist group feels about RTKBA?

    As regards this Rerpublican war hero, I thank him for his service. However, the ranks of highly decorated war heroes who have gone on to damage the Republic include Benedict Arnold and Tim McVeigh.
    I have a hard time lending any credence to your argument because it is 100% based on an assumption that these people wouldn't support the 2nd Amendment. Being as none of them were asked about it and it wasn't mentioned, It's impossible to even debate the topic because for all we know, you're 100% wrong.

    7. The RTKBA is SPECIFICALLY protected. The so-called "right to dance" is NOT.
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    Seemed like a peaceable assembly to assembly to me. Who cares if they're dancing or wearing rubber gloves on their heads. they were assembled, they were peaceful. End of story.
    Last edited by Bobarino; 06-06-2011 at 01:36 PM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    All three of you completely miss my point, which is:
    No, I got your point, I was merely pointing out that i believe it to be off-the-mark...

    You don't like these demonstrators because 1) they had some association with a "leftist" group you don't like, and 2) they "broke the law".

    Actually, I think Code Pink is about as ineffectual and obnoxious as you do. They are rude, disruptive, and not funny. They are abusive, racist, sexist, obscene, and almost NEVER bring good publicity to their "cause". Quite honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to find that Code Pink actually gets large amounts of funding from the very people they are protesting most of the time, and are actually a disinformation op, being used to discredit valid protesters... Their actions certainly have all the earmarks of such an operation...


    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    1. The Law is the Law, which is why we don't OC in DC.
    No, we don't OC in DC because we'd get imprisoned or shot by the "badges" if we did, and most of us are not so committed to our cause that we are willing to risk long-term incarceration or death to prove a point.

    I mean, in DC, the police draw down on you if you throw a snowball at a someone's car...


    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    2. These "protesters", (who included the founder of Code Pink) were breaking the law.
    See my above analysis of Code Pink...

    Plus, Code Pink has nothing to do with organizing or publicizing this event--they were riding on the coat-tails of Kokesh, much as they do with the MAJORITY of their ops. Code Pink rarely initiates action--they usually tag along on other people's protests--which is another reason I think they are actually an agent provocateur operation. They often show up at protests for good causes, and turn them into a circus of shouting, obscene behavior, and violence. Luckily, they behaved themselves this time, but it was a rare thing for them...


    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    3. The protestors' excuse was the "protest of an unjust and unconstitutional law"
    Excuse?

    No, they were fulfilling their Constitutional Rights and Duties as Citizens, by actively engaging their Government in a legal, lawful, and CONSTITUTIONAL manner, addressing the Government for Redress of Grievances.

    You know, that pesky little detail called the First FREAKING Amendment. You know, the one right before the SECOND, of which you are so fond?...


    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    4. This time, they did not even get arrested, ticketed, etc.
    This is becoming a tactic of the Feds with groups like this. The first time they protest--ESPECIALLY if it is a small, unannounced, and loosely-organized event with no official press coverage--they arrest them and shuttle them out of the public view.

    But when they come back, with hundreds more protesters, mainstream press, and dozens of Bloggers and Vloggers in tow, the common response these days is to ignore them for a while, and then just move in, shut down the venue, and herd everyone out...

    If there is not venue, there can be no protest.

    If there are no arrests, there can be no Civil Rights Violations cases brought.

    It's a very clever, subtle, and insidious way for the Feds to render such protests ineffectual, and most of the public just aren't sophisticated enough to "get" just how evil and insidious this "law enforcement" tactic is...


    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    5. What is more unjust and unconstitutional than DC's gun laws?
    We've got to choose our fights. We need to consider the predictable response of the government to different types of protest, and modulate our protest tactics accordingly.

    The appropriate way to address an absurd, ridiculous, nonsensical Court Ruling that is anti-1A is to protest in an expressive manner, using absurdism, ridicule, and nonsense. If that provokes a violent response from the Government, and there are National Media cameras rolling, then that looks GREAT for the protesters and VERY bad for the government.

    But if a bunch of armed protesters show up and get shot and jailed, it's going to get spun by the media (especially the rabidly anti-gun DC and MD media) as "a bunch of racist Radical Militia members stormed the Capital and this insurrection was put down by our brave Uniformed Officers". And that would NOT be good publicity for us.

    So instead, we choose the Courts, and unarmed protests.

    This isn't rocket science...


    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    6. HOWEVER, if some folks were to conduct a "carry in", they would be ARRESTED for a FELONY.
    No, they would be shot.

    And like I said, most of us aren't willing to die for our cause in some parade...


    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    7. The RTKBA is SPECIFICALLY protected. The so-called "right to dance" is NOT.
    Well, no actually, the Courts have ruled that "Expression" covers a whole LOT of different things, including musical performance, dance, poetry, and even sidewalk art.

    Dancing may not be explicitly listed in the Bill of Rights, but it has been included in court cases in the past, and has generally been considered to be part of "expression".


    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    8. One of the protesters held up a copy of the Constitution and said that it was his dancing permit.
    And according to most previous court cases, he is right. It is only in the recent ruling regarding the arrest of Mary Oberwetter in 2008 that has stated that dancing is NOT protected by Freedom of Expression, at least not in the specific location of the Jefferson Memorial...


    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    9. Good luck with telling a judge that the Constitution is your gun permit.
    Yeah, you are right. I guess Alan Gura is just a clueless chump, who has it all wrong...


    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    10. Code Pink was involved with this, majorly so. How do you think this patently Leftist group feels about RTKBA?
    No, they were on the periphery, and most of them weren't even dancing--just standing on the perimeter shouting and trying to instigate a violent response form the NPS officers--as they are often wont to do. Code Pink is NOT an "activist" group. They are agent provocateurs, being sent in to give REAL protesters a bad name, and to sully ANY cause that has legitimate Constitutional validity. Look at their track record...


    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    As regards this Rerpublican war hero, I thank him for his service. However, the ranks of highly decorated war heroes who have gone on to damage the Republic include Benedict Arnold and Tim McVeigh.
    And Alan Gura never served at all in the military. Neither did Benjamin Franklin. So what?

    Wrapping Kokesh into the same fold as Arnold or McVeigh is nothing more than slandarous muck-raking, and a shoddy attempt at guilt-by-association. It is nothing more than the same tactic used by the anti-2A folks when they try to say that ALL gun owners are the same as people like Seung-Hui Cho or Jared Lee Loughner.

    You can do better than that...


    The Bill of Rights is NOT a "Chinese Menu". You either support the ENTIRE thing, or you are against the Republic.

    Which side are you on, boys, which side are you on?
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  11. #11
    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    No, I got your point, I was merely pointing out that i believe it to be off-the-mark...

    You don't like these demonstrators because 1) they had some association with a "leftist" group you don't like, and 2) they "broke the law".

    Actually, I think Code Pink is about as ineffectual and obnoxious as you do. They are rude, disruptive, and not funny. They are abusive, racist, sexist, obscene, and almost NEVER bring good publicity to their "cause". Quite honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to find that Code Pink actually gets large amounts of funding from the very people they are protesting most of the time, and are actually a disinformation op, being used to discredit valid protesters... Their actions certainly have all the earmarks of such an operation...




    No, we don't OC in DC because we'd get imprisoned or shot by the "badges" if we did, and most of us are not so committed to our cause that we are willing to risk long-term incarceration or death to prove a point.

    I mean, in DC, the police draw down on you if you throw a snowball at a someone's car...




    See my above analysis of Code Pink...

    Plus, Code Pink has nothing to do with organizing or publicizing this event--they were riding on the coat-tails of Kokesh, much as they do with the MAJORITY of their ops. Code Pink rarely initiates action--they usually tag along on other people's protests--which is another reason I think they are actually an agent provocateur operation. They often show up at protests for good causes, and turn them into a circus of shouting, obscene behavior, and violence. Luckily, they behaved themselves this time, but it was a rare thing for them...




    Excuse?

    No, they were fulfilling their Constitutional Rights and Duties as Citizens, by actively engaging their Government in a legal, lawful, and CONSTITUTIONAL manner, addressing the Government for Redress of Grievances.

    You know, that pesky little detail called the First FREAKING Amendment. You know, the one right before the SECOND, of which you are so fond?...




    This is becoming a tactic of the Feds with groups like this. The first time they protest--ESPECIALLY if it is a small, unannounced, and loosely-organized event with no official press coverage--they arrest them and shuttle them out of the public view.

    But when they come back, with hundreds more protesters, mainstream press, and dozens of Bloggers and Vloggers in tow, the common response these days is to ignore them for a while, and then just move in, shut down the venue, and herd everyone out...

    If there is not venue, there can be no protest.

    If there are no arrests, there can be no Civil Rights Violations cases brought.

    It's a very clever, subtle, and insidious way for the Feds to render such protests ineffectual, and most of the public just aren't sophisticated enough to "get" just how evil and insidious this "law enforcement" tactic is...




    We've got to choose our fights. We need to consider the predictable response of the government to different types of protest, and modulate our protest tactics accordingly.

    The appropriate way to address an absurd, ridiculous, nonsensical Court Ruling that is anti-1A is to protest in an expressive manner, using absurdism, ridicule, and nonsense. If that provokes a violent response from the Government, and there are National Media cameras rolling, then that looks GREAT for the protesters and VERY bad for the government.

    But if a bunch of armed protesters show up and get shot and jailed, it's going to get spun by the media (especially the rabidly anti-gun DC and MD media) as "a bunch of racist Radical Militia members stormed the Capital and this insurrection was put down by our brave Uniformed Officers". And that would NOT be good publicity for us.

    So instead, we choose the Courts, and unarmed protests.

    This isn't rocket science...




    No, they would be shot.

    And like I said, most of us aren't willing to die for our cause in some parade...




    Well, no actually, the Courts have ruled that "Expression" covers a whole LOT of different things, including musical performance, dance, poetry, and even sidewalk art.

    Dancing may not be explicitly listed in the Bill of Rights, but it has been included in court cases in the past, and has generally been considered to be part of "expression".




    And according to most previous court cases, he is right. It is only in the recent ruling regarding the arrest of Mary Oberwetter in 2008 that has stated that dancing is NOT protected by Freedom of Expression, at least not in the specific location of the Jefferson Memorial...




    Yeah, you are right. I guess Alan Gura is just a clueless chump, who has it all wrong...




    No, they were on the periphery, and most of them weren't even dancing--just standing on the perimeter shouting and trying to instigate a violent response form the NPS officers--as they are often wont to do. Code Pink is NOT an "activist" group. They are agent provocateurs, being sent in to give REAL protesters a bad name, and to sully ANY cause that has legitimate Constitutional validity. Look at their track record...




    And Alan Gura never served at all in the military. Neither did Benjamin Franklin. So what?

    Wrapping Kokesh into the same fold as Arnold or McVeigh is nothing more than slandarous muck-raking, and a shoddy attempt at guilt-by-association. It is nothing more than the same tactic used by the anti-2A folks when they try to say that ALL gun owners are the same as people like Seung-Hui Cho or Jared Lee Loughner.

    You can do better than that...


    The Bill of Rights is NOT a "Chinese Menu". You either support the ENTIRE thing, or you are against the Republic.

    Which side are you on, boys, which side are you on?
    \

    You earlier stated that the protestors risked getting clubbed, etc. OCers would not be shot IF they INSTANTLY obeyed the cops and did not move for a firearm.

    I was NOT "wrapping Kokesh up" with Benedict Arnold, merely pointing out that a chest full of medals does NOT mean that someone can do no wrong. And Kokesh, I am given to understand, is an anti-war activist and I heard today that he is involved with Code Pink up to his eyeballs.

    Now. If you let these people go in and do their little dickey-doo dances, then what is there to prohibit Lyndon Larouche and his nuts from putting on skits featuring their insane political beliefs?

    Would you be okay with a bunch of guys in brown shirts going into the Hall of Remebrance of the Holocaust Museum and "expressing" themselves by singing the Horst Wessel Lied? Why not? Hells bells, it's expression, isn't it?

    What ticks me off is these dancing fools are doing what you accuse me of - treating the Constitution like a Chinese menu. Their "penumbric" right to dance is protected, but our VERY EXPLICITLY PROTECTED right to carry isn't?? That's what really sticks in my craw: A bunch of grownups acting like children and expecting to get their way, who would then treat real grownups as if THEY were children by denying them the RTKBA.

    Nevertheless, here's something you might try: Get a bunch of OCers together and walk into the Memorial wearing empty holsters, and then very ostentiously ask each other where their sidearms are, and reply how odd it is that since Jefferson said that every man should go armed it's odd, but they would lock you up for having one so you left yours on the other side of the river. Then, when the USPP descends on you and arrests the lot of you, just watch and see how it gets a snide mention on the news as "a bunch of nuts staging an illegal demonstration"; which mention will be made in the "oddball occurrences" section of the newscast.

  12. #12
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    I applaud these protestors, just as I applaud ANYONE who uses creative means to fight back against the systematic dismantling of our Fundamental Human Rights.
    + a bajillion

    Anyone who undermines the standing overgrown self-appointed 'authority' is a patriot and we should hang together lest we hang separately.

    Yes, this includes the dirty hippies that wanna smoke pot. I just wish both sides of THAT coin could pull their heads out of their asses. We're on the same side; more Freedom.
    Last edited by ixtow; 06-06-2011 at 06:36 PM.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    You earlier stated that the protestors risked getting clubbed, etc. OCers would not be shot IF they INSTANTLY obeyed the cops and did not move for a firearm.
    For someone who lives in Alexandria, you don't seem to be familiar with how LEAs generally operate in DC...


    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    And Kokesh, I am given to understand, is an anti-war activist and I heard today that he is involved with Code Pink up to his eyeballs.
    Being an anti-war activist does NOT equate with being anti-2A, which is what you appear to be saying. A LOT of returning vets--Constitution-believing, patriotic, gun-owning Vets--are anti-war. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that while they are over in Iraq and Afghanistan, dodging bullets shot from guns supplied to the Mujahideen by our own government, and seeing their buddies blown up by IEDs that the US taught the Iragi's and Afghani's how to build, they come to the realization that the whole thing is just a huge sham.

    Maybe while they are firing missiles and artillery at villages and schools and hospitals (because that is where the "intelligence community" tells them that's where the "bad guys" are hiding), while at the same time guarding the oil rigs and helping the Afghan farmers grow and process their opium poppies, and standing guard of the airstrips while Halliburton and DynCorp planes fly tons of opium and heroin to China, Russia, and the EU, they have the epiphany that this "war" has nothing to do with bringing "democracy" to the region but is just an attempt to consolidate the oil access under control of Shell, BP and Exxon, and an excuse to pump trillions more dollars into our military-industrial complex.

    Maybe so many returning vets are anti-war because any SANE person who has a glimmer of humanity SHOULD be against the wholesale slaughter of other humans in the name of increased profits, or for some sort of nebulous geopolitical power-grab, or in pursuit of some sort of sociopathic attempt to destabilize an entire region of the globe just for the sheer joy of having an excuse to order more cruise missiles from Lockheed...

    Maybe when they see their dead buddies widows being screwed by Prudential out of their death benefits because the Pentagon gave their full consent to Prudential to do so when they renegotiated their contract in the late 1990s, these returning vets start to think that this "war" isn't such a noble thing...

    Maybe when Vets realize that our government is hiring thousands of mercenaries, at salaries that are 10-30 times what the average soldier gets paid, they start to think that sending their brothers to die so that some billionaires back in the states can continue to cash in on the Iraqi/Afghani cash cow just isn't the right thing to do after all..

    And anyway, I don't think there is one iota of proof that Kokesh is anti-gun or anti-2A. In fact the reason he got discharged from the USMC is because he dared to bring back a pistol as a souvenir from Iraq, like thousands of Vets did in EVERY previous war we ever fought. The guy apparently likes guns. He just doesn't like what our government is doing with them...

    Go listen to Kokesh's speech he gave at the Libertarian National Convention in Manhattan in 2009:

    http://serfcity.wordpress.com/2009/0...09-convention/

    Interesting that he shared the podium with Alan Gura... Yeah, Libertarians and Alan Gura--Kokesh sure hangs out with a bunch of gun-grabbing leftist dirtbags, doesn't he?...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    Now. If you let these people go in and do their little dickey-doo dances, then what is there to prohibit Lyndon Larouche and his nuts from putting on skits featuring their insane political beliefs?
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
    --Thomas freaking Jefferson (1743 - 1826), to Archibald Stuart, 1791

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    Would you be okay with a bunch of guys in brown shirts going into the Hall of Remebrance of the Holocaust Museum and "expressing" themselves by singing the Horst Wessel Lied? Why not? Hells bells, it's expression, isn't it?
    These protesters weren't doing anything that Jefferson would be insulted or threatenedby, or which would be considered sacrilegious. Your example has NO relation to the actual facts of this particular protest, is not merely an example of emotive tar-and-feathering, but is actually even worse--it's a blatant Godwin's Law violation, and has no place in any sort of reasonable, rational discussion of the Bill of Rights.

    If you're going to turn this into a little hissy-fit of name-calling, ad hominem attacks, and Nazi-invoking, then hopefully the rest of this forum will see your argument for what it is becoming.

    Honestly, "AlexCabbie", I'm disappointed. I know you are capable of much better...

    Also, it has already been well-established that inflammatory speech or action, intentionally hateful or incendiary speech, or speech that is inciteful to violence or riot (fire in a crowded theater) is NOT "protected speech".

    And anyway, if you want to bring the Holocaust Museum into the discussion, a more appropriate metaphor would be, "what would the appropriate response be to a group of Jewish tourists sitting shivah in the lobby."


    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    What ticks me off is these dancing fools are doing what you accuse me of - treating the Constitution like a Chinese menu. Their "penumbric" right to dance is protected, but our VERY EXPLICITLY PROTECTED right to carry isn't?? That's what really sticks in my craw: A bunch of grownups acting like children and expecting to get their way, who would then treat real grownups as if THEY were children by denying them the RTKBA.
    Your insistance that Kokesh is some sort of frothing anti-2A Bradyite have no basis in reality, and are purely conjecture and a figment of your own biases and prejudices.

    Show us one example of Kokesh bashing OCers, or coming across as not supporting the 2A.

    We'll wait...


    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    Nevertheless, here's something you might try: Get a bunch of OCers together and walk into the Memorial wearing empty holsters, and then very ostentiously ask each other where their sidearms are, and reply how odd it is that since Jefferson said that every man should go armed it's odd, but they would lock you up for having one so you left yours on the other side of the river. Then, when the USPP descends on you and arrests the lot of you, just watch and see how it gets a snide mention on the news as "a bunch of nuts staging an illegal demonstration"; which mention will be made in the "oddball occurrences" section of the newscast.
    Now that is a damn good idea!

    EHOC on the Mall...

    Perhaps Independence Day 2011 would be a good time for 2A supporters all over the nation who are going to be in the DC area to EHOC on the Mall. That would be a sight to see...

    Perhaps I may just do that myself. I'll have my sister and nephew in town that week, and I think that might be a fantastic opportunity to demonstrate to him a very valuable lesson in Constitutional Law, First, Second, and Fourth Amendment rights, and the Duties of a Citizen. And what better time and place to do it than in DC on Independence Day?
    Last edited by Dreamer; 06-06-2011 at 07:27 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  14. #14
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    No dancing and singing at the Jefferson Memorial we built for us makes about as much sense as no fighting in the War Room.

    And yet today I learn someone exercising their Second Amendment Rights is okay, but someone exercising their First Amendment Rights is a disruptive clown idiot, dancing fool, lefty protester. Second Amendment? Red Blooded American. First Amendment? Smelly hippie.

    Well I for one can't resist that logic. I say the First Amendment should be abolished immediately. Dancing, singing, writing, speaking, painting, and photography should all be illegal activities. EVERYWHERE. They are all forms of anti-government protest anyway. Here's an idea. Lets start burning books too!!!



    Smell that Comrade? That's the New World Order!





    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 06-06-2011 at 07:47 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  15. #15
    Accomplished Advocate
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    All three of you completely miss my point, which is:

    1. The Law is the Law, which is why we don't OC in DC.
    2. These "protesters", (who included the founder of Code Pink) were breaking the law.
    3. The protestors' excuse was the "protest of an unjust and unconstitutional law"
    4. This time, they did not even get arrested, ticketed, etc.
    5. What is more unjust and unconstitutional than DC's gun laws?
    6. HOWEVER, if some folks were to conduct a "carry in", they would be ARRESTED for a FELONY.
    7. The RTKBA is SPECIFICALLY protected. The so-called "right to dance" is NOT.
    8. One of the protesters held up a copy of the Consstitution and said that it was his dancing permit.
    9. Good luck with telling a judge that the Constitution is your gun permit.
    10. Code Pink was involved with this, majorly so. How do you think this patently Leftist group feels about RTKBA?

    As regards this Rerpublican war hero, I thank him for his service. However, the ranks of highly decorated war heroes who have gone on to damage the Republic include Benedict Arnold and Tim McVeigh.
    the law is the law. by those words, if the supreme court said that the 2nd amendment does not apply to private citizens, but only to state national guards, how fast would you turn in your guns?

  16. #16
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    OMG! DANCING!






    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  17. #17
    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funtimes View Post
    Adam Kolkesh was the organizer of this event... he is pretty damn far away from "the leftists" attitude you are trying to sling.

    You are quite mistaken over this whole incident. Hell, I'm about as active as it could get for fighting gun control in Hawaii, and I would have attended this demonstration to dance in the TJ memorial.
    I indeed as well applaud their efforts..

  18. #18
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    [/me looks around in disbelief]




































    Why wasn't this guy arrested?
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  19. #19
    Regular Member LibertyDeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post



    Why wasn't this guy arrested?
    He was...

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    This is one of those instances I have to agree with Dreamer. Even if the entire thing was a set up, by some far left moonbats to disrupt other people from enjoying the monument I was totally disgusted by the behavior of the police I saw on that video.

    Sure they reacted according to their training and dominated the situation with force. The bottom line is, the "moobats" (if that's indeed what they were) were not doing anything I saw that was offensive. Even if they were there in all their ridiculous code pink regalia calling for the overthrow of the capitalist system and surrender to al-queda with full acceptance of sharia law. They have that right, as disgusting as I find that way of "thinking".

    I also HATE Adam Kokesh. The things I have seen that man say about HIS FELLOW VETS, are so reprehensible that I would not associate myself with any event he was a part of. He's a pathological liar pursuing notoriety anyway he can get it. Such opportunists should be scrutinized far more than they are. That's my issue with that guy, but he still has a right to be repulsive.

    If we're comfortable with police arresting and using physical force against people who are protesting insipid "laws"(this was a court ruling IIRC), but not otherwise interfering with anyone else's rights of movement. Then we should not expect any sympathy from people who do not agree with our points of view, but have at least enough objective reasoning too see the injustice that slaps a free thinking person in the face.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

  21. #21
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    I also HATE Adam Kokesh. The things I have seen that man say about HIS FELLOW VETS, are so reprehensible that I would not associate myself with any event he was a part of.

    Yeah, like all that propaganda he spews about the majority of the victims of US-led air attacks in Iraq being women and children. What bunkum...

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...n-1669282.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...tely-high.html

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Oct28.html



    And all that silliness he spouts about the VA and the DOD turning it's back on returning Vets with PTSD... Pure hokum...

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/08...-misdiagnosed/

    http://blogs.roanoke.com/politics/20...male-veterans/

    http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4025745n

    http://www.wvsocialsecuritydisabilit...-of-ptsd.shtml
    Last edited by Dreamer; 06-06-2011 at 11:43 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Yeah, like all that propaganda he spews about the majority of the victims of US-led air attacks in Iraq being women and children. What bunkum...

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...n-1669282.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...tely-high.html

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Oct28.html



    And all that silliness he spouts about the VA and the DOD turning it's back on returning Vets with PTSD... Pure hokum...

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/08...-misdiagnosed/

    http://blogs.roanoke.com/politics/20...male-veterans/

    http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4025745n

    http://www.wvsocialsecuritydisabilit...-of-ptsd.shtml
    Wow Dreamer, I didn't waste time with your links. I looked it up for myself. I had Kokesh confused with Jesse Macbeth or some other *******. I recognized his name, and thought it was one of those vets like John Kerry who comes home and gets on CNN telling lies about atrocities he was no where near.

    It matters not. Vets should not come home from a war and marginalize the efforts of other servicemen, or disparage the war effort for fame and notoriety. It only assists the enemy, and demoralizes the people who silently perform their duty with dignity.

    The bottom line here is I found the actions of the police wrong, and I was pretty pist off when I saw the vid. Finding out it was staged and designed to provoke a reaction of force softened my view, but the police were still wrong in using force. They were manipulated into reacting that way, and they should be trained not to just start throwing hippies around everytime they get a chance.

    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

  23. #23
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    It matters not. Vets should not come home from a war and marginalize the efforts of other servicemen, or disparage the war effort for fame and notoriety. It only assists the enemy, and demoralizes the people who silently perform their duty with dignity.

    Yeah, darn those members of our military who have seen combat, and then have the AUDACITY to come back into "regular society" and tell everyone what a terrible thing it is. Especially the ones who despise war because it's being done for profit, not for freedom...


    "I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity." --Dwight D. Eisenhower

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." --Dwight D. Eisenhower

    "This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist." --Dwight D. Eisenhower
    Last edited by Dreamer; 06-07-2011 at 01:50 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  24. #24
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Folks!
    Hope this helps clarify things a little:

    Amendment 1:
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    (note: Their right to peaceable assembly appears to have been infringed.)

    Amendment 8:
    Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

    (note: Coming after people dancing with AR-15s, physical force and other punishments can be construed as a violation of this amendment to the Bill of Rights. Certainly excessive force for an otherwise peaceful act.)

    Amendment 9:
    The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

    (note: The Constitution places restrictions upon government in order to preserve the rights of the people.)

    Amendment 10:
    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

    Now, where in the Constitution is the power to threaten dancing citizens with deadly or physical force for exercising their 1st amendment rights authorized?

    I'm just saying....


    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Last edited by M-Taliesin; 06-07-2011 at 03:09 PM.

  25. #25
    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Yeah, darn those members of our military who have seen combat, and then have the AUDACITY to come back into "regular society" and tell everyone what a terrible thing it is. Especially the ones who despise war because it's being done for profit, not for freedom...

    "I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity." --Dwight D. Eisenhower

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." --Dwight D. Eisenhower

    "This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist." --Dwight D. Eisenhower
    Amazing, here I am AGREEING with this clown about the OP, and yet he's still insists on harping about my oppinion of some obscure ********* who got his fame denigrating our country's war effort. It's amazing how full of yourself you really are.

    I'm waiting for you to pull up some old John Birch Society dirt on old Ike, so you can denounce him as a tool of the NWO on a future post. You are truly the most entertaining piece of "work" on this forum.



    BTW, I suppose you'll be selling or throwing away all your guns and accessories. Since so many companies who supply the civilian market are part of the "military industrial complex". I personally am grateful for the MIC, since it provides so many high paying jobs.
    Last edited by PrayingForWar; 06-07-2011 at 05:06 PM.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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