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Thread: legality of pocket holster

  1. #1
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    legality of pocket holster

    here we go again, i have had this happen twice and tried to do some research on it to no avail. the story is about the legality of a pocket holster covering the trigger. one source said trigger must be covered, another says trigger can't be covered. seems like some argument has happened on other forums about this.
    searched gun law books. even talked to a few concealed carry instructors to see if they knew anything about it. any directions to info would be helpful
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
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    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  2. #2
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    Covered is better

    I haven't seen anything regarding legality of holsters, but from a safety point of view the covered trigger would be better.

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    I'm trying to understand why would it matter if it shows or not? If it's in a pocket holster and in your pocket who could tell if it shows or not?
    Walk softly and carry a large caliber.

  4. #4
    Regular Member sFe's Avatar
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    Haven't read any laws regulating what type of holster is used, if any.
    For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. — Carl Sagan

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    Covered trigger is a great idea. It's not covered at all in the NCGS that I have seen. I know guys that pocket carry with no holster.

  6. #6
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Thanks everybody, pretty much all these statements was made. one statement was made that if it had a hole for the trigger that it might be disguised and some would not know it was a gun (say, if all you BGs that carry decided to point it at someone) . we found a statement in a law digest that covered this, stating that a concealed carry permit was for a "hidden or disguised weapon".

    i just hear urban legends like this. and i like to find out if they're correct or not. you got to admit some of the laws make no sense whatsoever.

    and also i don't want people who don't know to be told the wrong information.
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  7. #7
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    Maybe in another state they have different laws on pocket holsters?

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    Any source that you have that tells you that there are ANY regulations in NC regarding ANY sort of holsters is blowing smoke. Period.

    And I would suggest you take ANYTHING that these sources tell you about NC firearms law with a pound of salt, because they are obviously making stuff up as they go, and probably don't really know much about NC law at all.

    However, it is probably a SMART and safe thing to be sure your pocket holster covers your trigger. Wouldn't want to have an in-the-pocket ND. Ouch...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Is the question regarding safety requirements? I'm sure there are none in NC. It's not illegal to carry Plaxico style it just might not be the safest route...

    Or are you asking whether or not something would be considered concealed?
    "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain

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    They may be reffering

    To the fact that so called 'wallet holsters' and the like are considered any other weapon items. If a holster disguises the nature of the weapon, and the firearm can be fired without removing it from the holster or device, it requires a $5 tax stamp. This does NOT include items that can clearly be seen to be a gun, but it covers a lot of older designs with the trigger exposed, most of them now off the market. The same ruling is how the BATFE justifies regulating the 'suitcase' kits that were sold for the MP5K

    There are plenty of wallet holsters that cover the trigger and stay int he pocket while you make an easy draw, and others that look like a wallet with a gun slide on top, and stay on the gun as you draw and fire. I personally prefer that all holsters shroud the trigger guard, and pocket holsters enclose the trigger guard, nobody needs a keys in pocket induced AD. I always assume I may only have 1 hand free if I ever need my self defense tools, so my methods reflect my tendency to carry hammer down on live round with DAO or DA capable pistols.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KyleKatern View Post
    To the fact that so called 'wallet holsters' and the like are considered any other weapon items. If a holster disguises the nature of the weapon, and the firearm can be fired without removing it from the holster or device, it requires a $5 tax stamp. This does NOT include items that can clearly be seen to be a gun, but it covers a lot of older designs with the trigger exposed, most of them now off the market. The same ruling is how the BATFE justifies regulating the 'suitcase' kits that were sold for the MP5K
    This is simply NOT true...

    Galco makes several Concealment Purses that you COULD fire a gun from inside of, but they don't magically convert your S&W Ultralight or Kahr into an AOW. "Wallet Holsters" would not do so either.

    Use of such a holster does NOT somehow mystically transform your handgun into an AOW, although it MAY transform it into something inherantly unsafe to carry, and dangerous to the user, but it's NOT federally regulated.

    I for one would like to see the cite to Federal regs that state that the use of such a holster would transform a normal gun into an AOW. To my knowledge, such a law does not exist.

    NAA sells several "Belt Buckle Revolvers" that are classified as regular old handguns. However, under NC law (and many other states), they are considered "concealed" because they are not "readily recognizable as a real firearm". But they are NOT AOWs...

    They can be fired without removing them. Not safely or accurately, but they CAN be fired.

    And I can fire ANY of my handguns from inside their CC holsters, and that doesn't make them an AOW. Not saying I could do it safely or accurately, but it could be done.

    The AOW designation is pretty nebulous, and generally gets applied to firearms that:

    1) are not easily classified as a handgun or long gun,
    2) are easily concealable, and
    3) have no "practical" sporting, military, or self-defense use and
    4) might not meet current State and Federal guidelines for safety, like antiques, curios, and relics.

    Essentially, guns that are so outside the norm that they just don't easily fit the major classifications for "regular firearms" fall into the AOW classification.

    You are right about briefcase MP-5s and antique novelty guns that were not really meant to be practical firearms like those little "palm pistols" that look like pill boxes and the like.

    The interesting thing abotu the birefcase kits for the MP5s was that you STILL needed a Class III stamp ($200) for the MP5 if it was capable of automatic fire, but the CASE was classified as an AOW device, and required an additional AOW stamp ($5). That decision was more about the fact that someone might be carrying a concealed Class III weapon, than it was about regulating the weapon itself, and even THEN, they were not legal to carry in many jurisdictions, because CCing a Class III firearm is prohibited by many states REGARDLESS of whether or not the owner has a CC permit or not...

    But a regular gun in a regular holster that just so happens to he operable from inside the pocket and inside the holster would NOT classify as an AOW. It would require a CC permit or license, but nothing more....

    If I wanted to make some sort of weird pocket holster for my Glock 36 that allowed me to fire it from within my coat pocket (WHY I'd want to do something like that is beyond me, but just for the sake of argument...) it would STILL be just a plain old Glock, and would fall under the normal laws, statutes, and regulations that apply to any other Glock being CCed...

    The OP was talking about a "normal" firearm, in a not-so-normal holster, that was being CCed. Not some one-of-a-kind novelty gun that was purpose built to masquerade as a belt buckle or a cigarette case or a pocket watch (all of which WOULD be AOWs...)

    Let's stay on-topic here folks...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 06-08-2011 at 03:02 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  12. #12
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    I was sticking very closely to the topic

    And thanks to spending some time in a gun smithing class that was gun law and NFA enforcement heavy, I actually knew what I was talking about.

    See http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/i...-firearms.html

    A wallet holster, of the type that IS considered an AOW, is ONLY a tax stamp required item when the gun and holster are combined. The 2 items are then registered as an AOW, and carry a $5 transfer tax. You can purchase one of the holsters with no tax, and own the gun that fits it so long as you do not use them together, and be 100% legal.

    There are quiet a few wallet style holsters, that allow the gun to be fired while encased in the holster, that the BATFE has ruled are NOT classified as an NFA item when combined with a gun, as they do not conceal the nature of the gun. You may feel free to make a kydex pod that will allow your micro revolver to fire inside of it, then sew a leather cover that makes it look like a real wallet, or even IS a real wallet. However, if the covering on the gun makes it appear to be an item other than a gun, and it can be fired without opening, unfolding, etc said covering, you are trolling for a federal charge.

    I use a wild bills pocket packer on my Keltec 32. My dad uses one of the premium models of the same holster for his PF9. His has a wallet sized rectangle oh heavy leather that attaches to one side of the holster with a snap, breaking up the guns outline in his pocket. However, both of these holsters are designed to stay in place int he pocket as you draw, and in my case took practice in order to be able to remove the holster still on the gun when needed, such as when putting the gun in a secure spot before going into work in the morning.

  13. #13
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Dreamer i think kylekatern hit it. that pretty much was the argument presented to me. i thought they were out of their tree. but thanks, you broke the dam of research by showing me the right terms. here is a OCDC thread

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...holster-legal& and also

    http://www.atf.gov/publications/news...er-1997-08.pdf

    WALLET GUNS
    ATF has received numerous inquiries regarding
    wallet guns and wallet holsters.
    As defined in section 5845(e) of the National
    Firearms Act (NFA), the term “any other weapon”
    includes certain concealable weapons. Various
    types of disguised weapons such as cane guns, belt
    buckle guns, and briefcase guns (with remote
    control firing mechanisms) fall within the “any
    other weapon” category. It is unlawfil to make,
    possess, or transfer such firearms without
    complying with the provisions of the NFA.
    During the 1970’s, ATF determined that various
    small handguns combined with certain “wallet
    holsters” fall into the “any other weapon” category
    and are subject to the provisions of the NFA.
    These wallet holsters are generally rectangular in
    shape, are designed to disguise the appearance of
    the handgun, and are designed to allow the weapon
    to be fired while it is contained within the wallet.
    The handgun combined with the wallet holster
    constitutes an NFA firearm.
    5
    A conventional pistol or revolver which is
    possessed without the wallet holster would not be
    an NFA firearm. A wallet holster alone is not
    subject to NFA controls and cannot be registered
    or transferred a- a firearm. Firearms contained in
    conventional holsters, trouser pockets, purses,
    gun cases, or various other forms of carrying
    cases have not been determined to fall within the
    definition of an “any other weapon,” even though
    it maybe possible to discharge a firearm while it
    is carried in such a manner.
    In order for an individual to lawfully “make” a
    wallet gun, that is to say, acquire both the
    handgun and the wallet holster, the person must
    first submit an Application to Make and Register
    a Firearm (ATF Form 1), pay a $200.00 making
    tmq and receive approval of the application. The
    serial number appearing on the handgun should
    be used to register the firearm. Transfer of a
    wallet gun requires an approved transfer
    application and payment of a $5 transfer tax. A
    transfer will not be approved unless the wallet
    gun has been registered to the transferor.
    Mere sale or possession of the wallet holster
    without the handgun is not a violation of the
    NFA. However, 18 U.S.C. section 2 provides that
    a person who aids or abets another person in the
    commission of an offense is also responsible for
    the offense. Therefore, sale or distribution of a
    wallet holster with knowledge that it will be used
    to make an unregistered NFA firearm may also
    place the seller or distributor of the holster in
    violation of the NFA.
    Last edited by papa bear; 06-08-2011 at 11:24 PM.
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  14. #14
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    this is one of those dumb laws that don't make a lot of sense
    the wallet is not illegal , the gun is not illegal, just when you put them together is it a federal offense. though you can send in 5$ and magically it is legal not sure if you are supposed to carry the permission slip with you

    and also the BATF cherry picks which holster is legal and which is not. how? who knows?
    one of the arguments for this, said the BG wouldn't know if you were pointing a gun at them .

    and another thing this isn't a law, it's a stupid BATF rule.

    granted this all was set up before there was a lot of concealed carry in the states
    Last edited by papa bear; 06-08-2011 at 11:24 PM.
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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