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Thread: Erasing digital recorder illegal?

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    Erasing digital recorder illegal?

    I have not been on the forum for a while,but I just have a question that I've been thinking about for a couple days and thought maybe I could get some help. Some time ago a member posted about himself going to an auction.
    He was confronted by law enforcement and during the exchange it was said that the leo grabed his recorder and tried to erase it. The member told the leo that would be unlawful. Here's the question part. What law specifically states that this would be illegal? Would it be considered tapering with evidence or what?
    Last edited by gettysburg; 06-06-2011 at 06:43 PM.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    4th amendment: illegal search and seizure of personal property.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    4th amendment: illegal search and seizure of personal property.
    I concur.
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    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    4th amendment: illegal search and seizure of personal property.
    Seconded.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Destruction of evidence?

    MCL 750.483(a)5

    Looks like a 4-year felony.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member Get2DahChopper's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Warchild & the Q are both correct.

    That being said it is another thing to get a prosecutor to charge a LEO. They are often private attorneys contracted by a city to do the bidding of the PD. Remember they don't work for you [they are supposed to] and they are part of the problem at times.

    This being the case it is very important to carry a very obvious recorder & and or video camera (they just have to work & can be second hand from where ever yard sale/ salvation army etc). Then have a stealth device that records them (video & audio). That way when they do erase the others & eventually send you on your way, you have evidence to get rid of these "bad apples".

    People, most of us carry a backup sidearm correct? Why would an item that can defend your civil rights be any different?

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Or...use a live upload recorder -- or the 2A Porcupine Hotline
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Qik if you have a smartphone.

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    I was the guy at the auction.

    That day I only had one recorder. These days I tend to still carry only one recorder unless I carry into what I consider to be sensitive areas. I carried three of them when we went to the gun buyback.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Destruction of evidence?

    MCL 750.483(a)5

    Looks like a 4-year felony.
    What would the charge be for a police officer though?

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    Regular Member cmdr_iceman71's Avatar
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    Here's the real question, would any of the audio or video footage that is sent to some remote or cloud-based location be admissible in court?

    I can totally see the courts having a fetish about the material in question remaining on the original recording device in order for it to be admissible.
    "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth." - President George Washington

    "Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

    "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdr_iceman71 View Post
    Here's the real question, would any of the audio or video footage that is sent to some remote or cloud-based location be admissible in court?

    I can totally see the courts having a fetish about the material in question remaining on the original recording device in order for it to be admissible.
    Well you could go after them civilly first, then once they settle, because they DON'T want it in court. Gift wrap it for the prosecutor, they have already admitted some sort of guilt. My $0.02. I mean your going to get less civilly, but its not about the money.
    IANAL
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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    What would the charge be for a police officer though?
    Violating MCL 750.483(a)5

    That law makes no exemptions for cops.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdr_iceman71 View Post
    Here's the real question, would any of the audio or video footage that is sent to some remote or cloud-based location be admissible in court?

    I can totally see the courts having a fetish about the material in question remaining on the original recording device in order for it to be admissible.
    It raises reasonable doubt. Court fetish for documented line of custody usually extends more to prosecution evidence. If there is no document trail defense can raise it as reasonable doubt.

    This fetish doesn't so much apply to the accused who only needs to raise reasonable doubt.

    As far as a civil case being the plaintiff I think such evidence would clear the evidence hurdle there as well (which is far less than reasonable doubt).
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Here's a article that I read on this topic recently.

    Miami Beach Police Ordered Videographer At Gunpoint To Hand Over Phone

    Miami Beach police did their best to destroy a citizen video that shows them shooting a man to death in a hail of bullets Memorial Day.

    First, police pointed their guns at the man who shot the video, according to a Miami Herald interview with the videographer.

    Then they ordered the man and his girlfriend out the car and threw them down to the ground, yelling “you want to be f___ing paparazzi?”

    More: http://www.pixiq.com/article/MIami%2...%20Hand%20Over

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    i saw that too, the couple claims that the police tried to destroy other phones as well. i like that the guy took his memory card out of his phone and hid it in his mouth. quick thinking.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IHsl7fs19k
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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    Here's a article that I read on this topic recently.
    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    i saw that too, the couple claims that the police tried to destroy other phones as well. i like that the guy took his memory card out of his phone and hid it in his mouth. quick thinking.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IHsl7fs19k
    Classy
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

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    Quote Originally Posted by kubel View Post
    Qik if you have a smartphone.
    But you need the time to open and activate. Cant just have it recording continuously.
    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
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    When seconds count, the Police are just minutes away !!

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    For those of you with a phone running HTC's Sense, one of the HTC widgets you can download is the recorder--just set the phone to lock immediately after turning off the screen and there's not much they can do. All you have to do is tap the little icon that says "Record". I just use it for taking notes and such but I think it'd do the job.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigm View Post
    For those of you with a phone running HTC's Sense, one of the HTC widgets you can download is the recorder--just set the phone to lock immediately after turning off the screen and there's not much they can do. All you have to do is tap the little icon that says "Record". I just use it for taking notes and such but I think it'd do the job.
    After the cop has you cuffed he takes your phone.

    *crunch*

    What recording? What phone?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    After the cop has you cuffed he takes your phone.

    *crunch*

    What recording? What phone?
    That phone that sent out a GPS signal every 5 minutes in the past 8 hours, and now suddenly stopped at the exact location of the police encounter. It's a stretch(long one) yes, but saying "what phone?", doesn't work so well with modern electronics, assuming you're "connected".

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txzeenath View Post
    That phone that sent out a GPS signal every 5 minutes in the past 8 hours, and now suddenly stopped at the exact location of the police encounter. It's a stretch(long one) yes, but saying "what phone?", doesn't work so well with modern electronics, assuming you're "connected".
    Its called burden of proof, and beyond a reasonable doubt.... Also, your GPS usually doesn't track where you have been unless, well you have the GPS (physically, not in a crunched non working phone)... The phone company doesn't keep the record. I have GPS on my phone. I can go on the computer right now and see where it is. But I can't see where its been. Maybe their is an app for that, but then again, it would be on the phone. The phone that was crunched.

    ETA: That is why live stream recording is always a good idea, like qik, or alike. If its an option.
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 06-09-2011 at 03:48 AM.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  23. #23
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    And with live stream recording the meta data will tell where the file was produced.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    Its called burden of proof, and beyond a reasonable doubt.... Also, your GPS usually doesn't track where you have been unless, well you have the GPS (physically, not in a crunched non working phone)... The phone company doesn't keep the record. I have GPS on my phone. I can go on the computer right now and see where it is. But I can't see where its been. Maybe their is an app for that, but then again, it would be on the phone. The phone that was crunched.

    ETA: That is why live stream recording is always a good idea, like qik, or alike. If its an option.
    Latitude apps

    Turn on optional Latitude apps that let you see your location history and more.
    http://www.google.com/mobile/latitude/

    Might be able to use it from the computer as well, as Google Latitude can run outside the cell phone.

    I would carefully consider the implications of using such a tracking mechanism before activation...

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    Regular Member StingMP9's Avatar
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    article discussing Glik vs. Cunniffe in Massachusetts

    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...red+Content%29
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