Take Back Independence Day

DevinWKuska · Jun 13, 2011

since9 said:
As for the t-shirt, I have zero issues with the back design, but I'd have to wear the flag right-side up, as that's commensurate with U.S. Law governing the display and use of our flag.

The particular section governing the display of an inverted flag is Section 8(a): "The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property."

Even in support of your cause, I see no "dire distress" or "extreme danger to life or property." I think displaying our flag inverted on the front under the circumstances of protesting encroachments on our liberty would simply be disrespectful to our flag.

I hate to say it but the man is right. If you ditched the upside down flag I would be interested. IMO might as well burn a US flag or be like my neighbor and fly a Canadian Flag on July 4th.
\
On a side note looking through the code of conduct in regards to the US flag it would seem that wearing shirts, ect with the US flag on them is in violation. I wonder if these "rules" have any legal ramification, or are merely a sort of "Gentlemens Agreement."

HandyHamlet · Jun 13, 2011

Citizen said:
Overusing? Inappropriately strong terms? Who defines "overuse" and "inappropriately strong"?
...

I agree.

This guy says "police state" in his opening... But I'm sure he has no clue.

Who Polices the Police?

Jun 10, 2011
The Judge's commentary on the Memorial Day weekend police shooting in Miami and the federal investigation of the Newark Police Department

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/987443936001/who-polices-the-police/

Cops taking cell phones at gun point. Smashing news cameras. States charging people with archaic wiretap laws to protect their illegal activities... No singing at the Jefferson Memorial. Our Memorial.
Time to take it back.

eye95 · Jun 13, 2011

IMO (and I would bet in the opinion of almost all of the posters here), "police state" as a description of the US would be "inappropriately strong" and that characterization has been "overused" here by some.

But, hey, if some of you want to keep it up, go for it. At best, we can point out the folly of doing so. We can't stop you. We can only try to dissuade you.

HandyHamlet · Jun 13, 2011

I actually never use the term. But I think I'll start. And I'll stop using it when the Judge stops. Or I can sing at the Jefferson Memorial without getting arrested. Or dance. Or take video.

KBCraig · Jun 14, 2011

Less than 50 years ago, American citizens protesting the Vietnam war were facing off with American military troops with mounted bayonets, and some were even shot.

Less than 60 years ago, American troops were facing down American citizens who either favored or opposed (depending on the date/state) racial integration of schools.

Less than 70 years ago, American citizens and multi-generation immigrants were rounded up at gunpoint and forced into internment camps, based on nothing more than official U.S. Census data about their heritage (remember the promises that U.S. Census would never disclose your personal information? HA!)

Less than 80 years ago, American citizens were gassed, burned, bayonetted, and shot by U.S. Army troops under MacArthur, Eisenhower, and Patton. The citizens were veterans and their families, who had the nerve to camp out in a public park in DC, demanding that the government pay them what they'd been promised.

Less than 110 years ago, U.S. Army troops were called into service in Colorado to suppress miners who were on strike.

Should I go on?

sudden valley gunner · Jun 14, 2011

KBCraig said:
Less than 50 years ago, American citizens protesting the Vietnam war were facing off with American military troops with mounted bayonets, and some were even shot.

Less than 60 years ago, American troops were facing down American citizens who either favored or opposed (depending on the date/state) racial integration of schools.

Less than 70 years ago, American citizens and multi-generation immigrants were rounded up at gunpoint and forced into internment camps, based on nothing more than official U.S. Census data about their heritage (remember the promises that U.S. Census would never disclose your personal information? HA!)

Less than 80 years ago, American citizens were gassed, burned, bayonetted, and shot by U.S. Army troops under MacArthur, Eisenhower, and Patton. The citizens were veterans and their families, who had the nerve to camp out in a public park in DC, demanding that the government pay them what they'd been promised.

Less than 110 years ago, U.S. Army troops were called into service in Colorado to suppress miners who were on strike.

Should I go on?

And recently..... LEO have illegally detained harassed and threatened OC'ers. They have shot and killed a woodcarver in the back/side for carving on a piece of wood publicly.(Seattle) they have killed a young man laying on face down hand cuffed on the ground. (Bart) They killed a man in Colorado for asking for a warrant, etc......

They push for more and more constitutional encroachments on our liberty, and lobby on the side of gun and weapon control and laws against it's citizens.

Crime is down yet the police force and unions and their lobbying power and governmental control increases year after year. They hide behind a blue wall of silence. And are becoming more and more militarized in training and equipment. They have become a standing army engaging in unconstitutional "pro-active" law enforcement.

So Eye when do we start using the term "police state"? When it's too late and you can be arrested for it?

SFCRetired · Jun 14, 2011

All of you have made some fairly valid points. I'll just say this: I've lived in Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa. My wife, and many of our friends, come from mainland China. We may not have a perfect system, but what we do have beats the living Hell out of anything else I've seen.

We are not now, nor have we ever been, a "police state". Yes, there have been mistakes made. The internment of American citizens of Japanese ancestry was one of the more shameful moments of our history. The slaughter of Native Americans was another.

Even with all the warts, this is still the greatest nation to ever grace this planet in terms of the rights of we, the people.

Whether or not it stays that way depends on whether or not each and every one of us exercises that most basic of all rights and duties; voting. Don't exercise that right, and we may well become either a police state or, worse, a theocracy.

eye95 · Jun 14, 2011

SFCRetired said:
All of you have made some fairly valid points. I'll just say this: I've lived in Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa. My wife, and many of our friends, come from mainland China. We may not have a perfect system, but what we do have beats the living Hell out of anything else I've seen.

We are not now, nor have we ever been, a "police state". Yes, there have been mistakes made. The internment of American citizens of Japanese ancestry was one of the more shameful moments of our history. The slaughter of Native Americans was another.

Even with all the warts, this is still the greatest nation to ever grace this planet in terms of the rights of we, the people.

Whether or not it stays that way depends on whether or not each and every one of us exercises that most basic of all rights and duties; voting. Don't exercise that right, and we may well become either a police state or, worse, a theocracy.

Exactly. Especially the bolded parts.

Yes, the government has overstepped its bounds. That is the nature of the beast that we call government. We must always be vigilant and proactive to keep the government in its box. When the law does not put enough restraint on the government, it should be changed. (For example, Title 13 has been strengthened to prevent raw census data from being used by any other government agency for any reason at all. That restraint was lacking in the law during WWII.) When the restraints in the law fail to stop the government, we should use the courts. (For example, Heller and McDonald.)

sudden valley gunner · Jun 14, 2011

SFCRetired said:
All of you have made some fairly valid points. I'll just say this: I've lived in Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa. My wife, and many of our friends, come from mainland China. We may not have a perfect system, but what we do have beats the living Hell out of anything else I've seen.

We are not now, nor have we ever been, a "police state". Yes, there have been mistakes made. The internment of American citizens of Japanese ancestry was one of the more shameful moments of our history. The slaughter of Native Americans was another.

Even with all the warts, this is still the greatest nation to ever grace this planet in terms of the rights of we, the people.

Whether or not it stays that way depends on whether or not each and every one of us exercises that most basic of all rights and duties; voting. Don't exercise that right, and we may well become either a police state or, worse, a theocracy.

I agree on the mistakes part, I am part Native American and most Natives I know recognize the injustice and want to move on and many proudly serve in the military.

The issue to me isn't if we are still better than other places the issue is to stop and reverse the police state we are quickly becoming. Our system has become a very ambiguous system where almost anyone at anytime can be indicted, tried and sentenced. Read, "Who killed the constitution", "Tyranny through good intentions", and "Three felonies a day".

We need to go back to the legal foundation of our country and the legal system it had adopted. Let's stop chasing the way the rest of the world does it and take our country back. To me this does not mean voting for an R or a D they are twigs of the same branch.

RR_Broccoli · Jun 14, 2011

So..... celebrate Independence Day by selling t-shirts.

How American of you.

Gunslinger · Jun 14, 2011

KBCraig said:
Less than 50 years ago, American citizens protesting the Vietnam war were facing off with American military troops with mounted bayonets, and some were even shot.

Less than 60 years ago, American troops were facing down American citizens who either favored or opposed (depending on the date/state) racial integration of schools.

Less than 70 years ago, American citizens and multi-generation immigrants were rounded up at gunpoint and forced into internment camps, based on nothing more than official U.S. Census data about their heritage (remember the promises that U.S. Census would never disclose your personal information? HA!)

Less than 80 years ago, American citizens were gassed, burned, bayonetted, and shot by U.S. Army troops under MacArthur, Eisenhower, and Patton. The citizens were veterans and their families, who had the nerve to camp out in a public park in DC, demanding that the government pay them what they'd been promised.

Less than 110 years ago, U.S. Army troops were called into service in Colorado to suppress miners who were on strike.

Should I go on?

I'm missing your point, and it was OH National Guard under local control, not US troops under Federal Control, at Kent State. Are you saying we have always been a police state or that nothing really has changed since they shot Joe Hill, so we're not really going in that direction? I don't think we're a "police" state. I think we have Stormtrooper thugs wearing the badge who belong in prison. Put them there, let other would be thugs learn from it, and we make a nice withdrawal towards liberty. Have this cancer grow, and yes, we will become a police state--and a lot of bullets will start to fly and I don't mean in only one direction. The solution is to vote in leadership positions people who will stop the cancer's spread and then irradicate it. That starts with kicking obooba and holder out on their worthless asses and ends with a mayor of some hick town who will make sure the Chief of Police can read the Constitution without a glazed look on his face.

sudden valley gunner · Jun 14, 2011

RR_Broccoli said:
So..... celebrate Independence Day by selling t-shirts.

How American of you.

It is very American, make a profit when you can, any time you can.

Citizen · Jun 15, 2011

When:

I cannot fly to visit a dying relative without a thorough search...
I cannot buy the quintessential home defense implement without a computer check...
I have my electronic communications monitored by a highly secretive government agency...
Federal police admit violating the 4A some 4K times in a few short years...
SWAT teams bust down doors to serve routine warrants...
The fedgov regulates or intrudes into nearly every aspect of my life...
Security cameras are nearly everywhere in cities of any size...
My money and property are subject to forfeiture (asset forfeiture) without due process...
I am trapped into using a fiat currency that is manipulable at the whim of an overspending government and its accommodating co-conspirators at the central bank...
I am unable escape the economic consequences of the foregoing because of rule, regulations, and laws that have penalties in the form of fines and prison...
Etc., etc., etc.

I live in a police state, or so close as to be functionally pointless to try to distinguish from the viewpoint of benefits of liberty. As in, "secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity."

Am I really supposed to wait until my government behaves the way previous and current police states do? Just because my looting expropriators have arrived at it more creatively, but have me trapped and are bleeding me just as surely, I cannot use the term? What if my government has arrived at a police state by methods not used by others? Suddenly the term no longer applies? Shall we also dispense with the terms tyranny and despotism?

Dreamer · Jun 15, 2011

KBCraig said:
Less than 50 years ago, American citizens protesting the Vietnam war were facing off with American military troops with mounted bayonets, and some were even shot.

Should I go on?

I will...

Less than 90 years ago, in Blair Mountain WV, coal miners who were attempting to unionize after several deadly mining accidents were confronted by armed US troops and private security agents, sent in at the the mine owners request to be "strike breakers". What they did was kill over 100 miners in a protracted battle that involved everything from rifles to home-made bombs being dropped from crop-duster airplanes...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain

Gunslinger · Jun 15, 2011

Dreamer said:
I will...

Less than 90 years ago, in Blair Mountain WV, coal miners who were attempting to unionize after several deadly mining accidents were confronted by armed US troops and private security agents, sent in at the the mine owners request to be "strike breakers". What they did was kill over 100 miners in a protracted battle that involved everything from rifles to home-made bombs being dropped from crop-duster airplanes...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain

Very interesting period in US history. This action was considered to be an insurrection and therefore the Posse Comitatus Act was not in play. Generally, it was State Militia that supported the owners in strike breaking simply because of the prohibition. Although US troops have often been used in "guaranteeing" continuation of essential services, e.g., railroads, utilities, mail, etc. I think Truman did this during some strike in his term.

HandyHamlet · Jun 15, 2011

Citizen said:
When:

I cannot...

Best post I've seen in a long time. Bravo Sir.

When I can sing, dance and take video without being arrested at my Jefferson Memorial I'll quit bitching. For a while.

DevinWKuska · Jun 16, 2011

Gunslinger said:
I'm missing your point, and it was OH National Guard under local control, not US troops under Federal Control, at Kent State. Are you saying we have always been a police state or that nothing really has changed since they shot Joe Hill, so we're not really going in that direction? I don't think we're a "police" state. I think we have Stormtrooper thugs wearing the badge who belong in prison. Put them there, let other would be thugs learn from it, and we make a nice withdrawal towards liberty. Have this cancer grow, and yes, we will become a police state--and a lot of bullets will start to fly and I don't mean in only one direction. The solution is to vote in leadership positions people who will stop the cancer's spread and then irradicate it. That starts with kicking obooba and holder out on their worthless asses and ends with a mayor of some hick town who will make sure the Chief of Police can read the Constitution without a glazed look on his face.

With all due respect it has been my experience those we elect into office are the cause/part of that cancer you speak of. Politicians(barring none) will say whatever they can to get into office. Bush, CLinton, Bush Jr, Obama, ect all made grand claims... sadly they came through on only a few. Obama promised Obama care, so his constituants voted for him. He got so close to fulfilling his promise and the people shut him down.

So based on that what reason does a politician have to make the US a better place? His/her party will disown, their rivals will scream impeach, and the voters will look on with disgust. You should celebrate the liberties you still have! Some day those liberties might be denied from an enemy either foreign or domestic. Happy independance day!

On a side note: For those who believe we live in a police state consider what the 13 colonies had for rights compared to what we have now... we have alot to be greatful for, even if the US isnt Utopia for gun owners.

Citizen · Jun 16, 2011

DevinWKuska said:
SNIP For those who believe we live in a police state consider what the 13 colonies had for rights compared to what we have now... we have alot to be greatful for, even if the US isnt Utopia for gun owners.

Oh, I forgot to mention on my list above:

digital driver's licenses and facial recognition technology.
police cars using license plate recognition scanners
red light cameras
speed radar cameras

I'll go back and add those.

sudden valley gunner · Jun 16, 2011

Citizen said:
Oh, I forgot to mention on my list above:

digital driver's licenses and facial recognition technology.

police cars using license plate recognition scanners

red light cameras

speed radar cameras

I'll go back and add those.

Don't forget the use of Dogs......

HandyHamlet · Jun 16, 2011

Or road blocks.
Or no right to own your land.

Take Back Independence Day

Regular Member

Regular Member

Well-known member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Well-known member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Founder's Club Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Founder's Club Member

Regular Member

Regular Member