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Thread: The open carry myth

  1. #1
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    The open carry myth

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.ctguntalk.com/smf/concealed-and-open-carry-in-ct/where-not-legal-to-carry/msg36929/#msg36929
    Additionally, go ahead and open carry in New Britain and see what that gets you. I guarantee NBPD does not care that open carry is legal (or for that matter technically mandated by their ordinance), you will be ordered to lay face down at gun point if they see you, betting New London is the same way....
    How many people here have open carried in New Britain? I know I have.

    I even recall people being stopped, educating the police there and going on about their day.

    But we have some people in CT who are afraid of their own shadows and they want to perpetuate this silly myth that there is something wrong with OC in CT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    "we have some people in CT who are afraid of their own shadows and they want to perpetuate this silly myth that there is something wrong with OC in CT".
    Exactly Rich. They're too fearful to OC, so they bash those who do. Wasted band width IMO, but always good for a laugh I guess. It's amazing how many of those guys proclaim to be huge 2nd Amendment supporters while at the same time trying to limit OUR rights towards OC. Oh well........
    Last edited by USAR-VET; 06-08-2011 at 03:36 PM.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    IF, as claimed, that will be the behavior of that particular police department, then there would seem only two ways to combat it.
    1) Establish a pattern of behavior and sue the pants off them, or,
    2) Get proned out, laugh with glee and be very cooperative, ask if they're working the next day and tell them they can meet you at the corner of X and Y streets and you can do it all over again....and again...and again... (Whilst also establishing the above mentioned behavior for evidence in court.) If you can get them called 8-10 times a day, and it helps to have one or more cooperative friends, eventually they'll get tired of playing your game. Ask for their cell phone numbers, give them yours, ask them if they want to be pen pals.... in the spirit of cooperation, of course.

    Most people, police included, don't like to be made fools of.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-08-2011 at 11:49 AM.

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    Regular Member brk913's Avatar
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    As the original poster of that message I feel the need to respond to what you folks are saying. First and foremost I do open carry, quite a bit actually and fully support it.

    Second this message was a rebuttal to a discussion on the NB ordinance that states you may not conceal a weapon and was taken out of context.

    Lastly, I lived in NB for 20 years, I know a lot of police officers there, none of them will admit that OC is legal and are under the impression it is at bare minimum a BOP charge. With the gang activity and crime rate in NB the officers take no "chances" when seeing or responding to a MWAG.

    While I have tried to get them to admit they are wrong it seems their departments attitude is arrest now, explain in court later. I assure you again, if a NBPD officer sees you walking around in town you will be stopped, questioned and probably charged. Laugh about it all you want as you have your permit illegally taken, your gun seized and have to go through a ton of BS and spend a bunch of cash to get it all back.

    I suggest you look at the tone of your postings about others, it sheds a lot of light on why a lot of people don't like the attitudes of some open carriers. Rather than belittling and ridiculing others and their posts and calling them names (Barney Fife) how about lending your knowledge to the topic without an attitude of superiority.

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    Regular Member brk913's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    IF, as claimed, that will be the behavior of that particular police department, then there would seem only two ways to combat it.
    1) Establish a pattern of behavior and sue the pants off them, or,
    2) Get proned out, laugh with glee and be very cooperative, ask if they're working the next day and tell them they can meet you at the corner of X and Y streets and you can do it all over again....and again...and again... (Whilst also establishing the above mentioned behavior for evidence in court.) If you can get them called 8-10 times a day, and it helps to have one or more cooperative friends, eventually they'll get tired of playing your game. Ask for their cell phone numbers, give them yours, ask them if they want to be pen pals.... in the spirit of cooperation, of course.

    Most people, police included, don't like to be made fools of.
    You are 100% correct, police do not like to be made a fool of, however, after the first time when they take your permit and gun you will not be doing it the next day as then they will actually have grounds for an arrest (carrying without a permit, it will not matter that your permit was taken illegally) fact is you will not have one.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Ah yes the" you will be arrested" line... funny how we hear that too in MI but there hase been only one actual arrest and in that case several people were fired and the OCer got a settlement.

    Sent from my Droid Flipside using Tapatalk
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member brk913's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Ah yes the" you will be arrested" line... funny how we hear that too in MI but there hase been only one actual arrest and in that case several people were fired and the OCer got a settlement.

    Sent from my Droid Flipside using Tapatalk
    Good for the people of MI, however, here in CT it is well know that several people have been unlawfully arrested (including Rich B. above), (no one knows for sure the true number of people who have had to deal with this issue as it has only really come to light in the last few years), no one has been fired or reprimanded and no OC has gotten any money, just had to pay through the nose to "clear their name", some have even had their guns destroyed (Goldberg)....

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    My apologies, brk913, I may have missed where the OP said he'd been arrested. Let me read it again.
    Hmmm... still not seeing it. Okay... one more try....
    Nope, still not there.

    I'm going out on a limb here but, if someone is unlawfully arrested then in most states there is recourse that can be taken. I'm assuming the same is true pretty much everywhere?


    As an aside, what are CT's laws with regard to the carrying of non-concealable arms, such as rifles, carbines or shotguns? Permits required?
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-08-2011 at 01:25 PM.

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    Regular Member brk913's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    My apologies, brk913, I may have missed where the OP said he'd been arrested. Let me read it again.
    Hmmm... still not seeing it. Okay... one more try....
    Nope, still not there.

    I'm going out on a limb here but, if someone is unlawfully arrested then in most states there is recourse that can be taken. I'm assuming the same is true pretty much everywhere?


    As an aside, what are CT's laws with regard to the carrying of non-concealable arms, such as rifles, carbines or shotguns? Permits required?
    Well, Rich's story of his unlawful arrest is all over these boards, in fact there is a sticky about it, here you go: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...st-Wallingford

    As for long guns in CT, you can carry and tranport them, if carrying in a vehicle they must be unloaded. No permit required.

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    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    I know a lot of police officers there
    Names please, include the date (at least approximate) when they had these conversations with you.

    none of them will admit that OC is legal and are under the impression it is at bare minimum a BOP charge. With the gang activity and crime rate in NB the officers take no "chances" when seeing or responding to a MWAG.
    And yet, that has not been the behavior of them anytime any of us have OCed in New Britain. Some 'tough guy' talk by police officers does not equate to reality.

    While I have tried to get them to admit they are wrong it seems their departments attitude is arrest now, explain in court later.
    That is fine, that does not equate to 'proning people out'. Nor does an arrest mean anything. An arrest for BOP for OCing in this state is only likely to bring trouble for the department.

    I assure you again, if a NBPD officer sees you walking around in town you will be stopped, questioned and probably charged.
    And yet, this isn't happening. I OC in New Britain, I have walked by many officers, never had an issue.

    Laugh about it all you want as you have your permit illegally taken, your gun seized and have to go through a ton of BS and spend a bunch of cash to get it all back.
    Since Goldberg, when has this happened in Connecticut?

    I suggest you look at the tone of your postings about others, it sheds a lot of light on why a lot of people don't like the attitudes of some open carriers. Rather than belittling and ridiculing others and their posts and calling them names (Barney Fife) how about lending your knowledge to the topic without an attitude of superiority.
    While I can't necessarily stand up for name calling since it is not allowed here, I can certainly stand up for the 'tone' in this thread, because I started it. The reason I started it was because you are spreading gun shop rumors.

    Stating things as fact without data to back them up will definitely get people to call you on your assertions.

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    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    (carrying without a permit, it will not matter that your permit was taken illegally)
    Carrying without a permit is a small infraction.


    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.cga.ct.gov/2011/pub/chap529.htm#Sec29-37.htm
    Sec. 29-37. Penalties.

    ...

    (c) Any person violating any provision of subsection (b) of section 29-35 shall have committed an infraction and shall be fined thirty-five dollars.
    That being said, if the local police take your permit, they have broken the law. The law provides for a process for revocation and it is in writing via the DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.cga.ct.gov/2011/pub/chap529.htm#Sec29-32.htm

    Sec. 29-32. Revocation of permit. Notification. Confiscation. Penalty for failure to surrender permit. (a) For the purposes of this section, "conviction" means the entry of a judgment of conviction by any court of competent jurisdiction.

    (b) Any state permit or temporary state permit for the carrying of any pistol or revolver may be revoked by the Commissioner of Public Safety for cause and shall be revoked by said commissioner upon conviction of the holder of such permit of a felony or of any misdemeanor specified in subsection (b) of section 29-28 or upon the occurrence of any event which would have disqualified the holder from being issued the state permit or temporary state permit pursuant to subsection (b) of section 29-28. Upon the revocation of any state permit or temporary state permit, the person whose state permit or temporary state permit is revoked shall be notified in writing and such state permit or temporary state permit shall be forthwith delivered to the commissioner. Any law enforcement authority shall confiscate and immediately forward to the commissioner any state permit or temporary state permit that is illegally possessed by any person. The commissioner may revoke the state permit or temporary state permit based upon the commissioner's own investigation or upon the request of any law enforcement agency. Any person who fails to surrender any permit within five days of notification in writing of revocation thereof shall be guilty of a class C misdemeanor.
    Do your New Britain police friends also not understand this law?
    Last edited by Rich B; 06-08-2011 at 03:33 PM.

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    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    no OC has gotten any money, just had to pay through the nose to "clear their name", some have even had their guns destroyed (Goldberg)....
    Goldberg's case is still in appeals and my case has yet to be filed.

    Who are you using as evidence here?

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    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    Well, Rich's story of his unlawful arrest is all over these boards, in fact there is a sticky about it, here you go: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...st-Wallingford
    In which I was arrested, Wallingford quickly learned there is no such thing as OC == BoP and the let me go, instead trying to tack on a silly charge of disorderly to save face. Even the disorderly charge was immediately dismissed on 'no probable cause'.

    I didn't spend a dime defending myself.

    Your evidence does not support your assertion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    Lastly, I lived in NB for 20 years, I know a lot of police officers there, none of them will admit that OC is legal and are under the impression it is at bare minimum a BOP charge. With the gang activity and crime rate in NB the officers take no "chances" when seeing or responding to a MWAG.
    Gang activity is NO reason to violate someones right to lawful OC!!


    I assure you again, if a NBPD officer sees you walking around in town you will be stopped, questioned and probably charged. Laugh about it all you want as you have your permit illegally taken, your gun seized and have to go through a ton of BS and spend a bunch of cash to get it all back.
    Has this happened to ANYONE yet, or just your opinion??


    I suggest you look at the tone of your postings about others, it sheds a lot of light on why a lot of people don't like the attitudes of some open carriers. Rather than belittling and ridiculing others and their posts and calling them names (Barney Fife) how about lending your knowledge to the topic without an attitude of superiority.
    Sorry if the Barney Fife comment hurt your feelings, BUT you really can't be serious about OUR (OC'ers) attitudes as it's THE CC people who have an issue with OC and make that well known on the 'other' board. Again, we're not afraid of doing something that's perfectly legal here in CT.
    Last edited by USAR-VET; 06-08-2011 at 03:53 PM.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913
    Well, Rich's story of his unlawful arrest is all over these boards, in fact there is a sticky about it, here you go: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...st-Wallingford
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    In which I was arrested, Wallingford quickly learned there is no such thing as OC == BoP and the let me go, instead trying to tack on a silly charge of disorderly to save face. Even the disorderly charge was immediately dismissed on 'no probable cause'.

    I didn't spend a dime defending myself.

    Your evidence does not support your assertion.
    When the guy you're holding up as an example tells you that you're wrong.....
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 06-08-2011 at 04:27 PM.

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    Thumbs up

    well written and spoken Rich. like you said its all about facts. it takes one true open carrier (like yourself) to tell others about the truth and facts about open carry. you been there and done that.
    Last edited by Alex.EastHartford.; 06-08-2011 at 07:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    As the original poster of that message I feel the need to respond to what you folks are saying. First and foremost I do open carry, quite a bit actually and fully support it.

    Second this message was a rebuttal to a discussion on the NB ordinance that states you may not conceal a weapon and was taken out of context.

    Lastly, I lived in NB for 20 years, I know a lot of police officers there, none of them will admit that OC is legal and are under the impression it is at bare minimum a BOP charge. With the gang activity and crime rate in NB the officers take no "chances" when seeing or responding to a MWAG.

    While I have tried to get them to admit they are wrong it seems their departments attitude is arrest now, explain in court later. I assure you again, if a NBPD officer sees you walking around in town you will be stopped, questioned and probably charged. Laugh about it all you want as you have your permit illegally taken, your gun seized and have to go through a ton of BS and spend a bunch of cash to get it all back.

    I suggest you look at the tone of your postings about others, it sheds a lot of light on why a lot of people don't like the attitudes of some open carriers. Rather than belittling and ridiculing others and their posts and calling them names (Barney Fife) how about lending your knowledge to the topic without an attitude of superiority.

    I live in New Britain and have had conversations with several officers (including the late Captain Tuttle. rest his soul) and found them to be unaware of the legality of OC.

    In each case, I pointed the officer towards the Department Of Public Safety website and Office of Legislative Research findings and suggested that they'd been the victim of bad information. All three were receptive to what I was saying and I confessed that I'd also been the recipient of the same information regarding OC when I took my permit class.

    I generally respect/support the efforts of law enforcement unless they cross the line that seperates 'peace officer' from 'jack-booted thug'. A bogus arrest for breach-of-peace qualifies as jack-booted-thugishness in my view.

    I prefer to 'educate' first, before slapping down JBT's.

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    Regular Member brk913's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MGoduto View Post
    I live in New Britain and have had conversations with several officers (including the late Captain Tuttle. rest his soul) and found them to be unaware of the legality of OC.
    Thank you or reiterating what I have stated about hard hittin' New Britain, for some reason the hard core OCers of this forum love to kill and rip apart the messenger, Rich, you are asking me for the names of not just random officers but of my friends, one in particular is very adamant in his position no matter what paperwork or proof I show him. BTW all of them were also unaware of the Town Ordinance prohibiting concealed weapons, makes you wonder just who is "teaching them the laws".

    Not to change topics but a friend of mine and his wife went to Hamden PD for their pistol permits, they waited the 8 weeks and started calling about the status and were told that it would take another few weeks. My friends pointed out the state statute showing they must receive an answer within 8 weeks and this is what they were told not by one offficer but also a seargent, "That's an old law, nobody follows that anymore." With police officers out there making up there own laws on a daily basis it shows their mentality and what can happen even though the law is on your side.

    As I stated in an earlier post, as of right now no one I have heard of has successfully sued a PD for false arrest over an unlawful OC arrest, not that it may not happen soon, and Rich I really hope it does happen for you, the harrassment you received in Wallingford was absolutely wrong. No one truly knows the number of OCers who have lost their permits or been charged, especially prior to this whole issue coming out in the last few years. Remember, it was not to long ago that the BOFPE website stated you needed to keep your gun concealed from view.

    Also Rich you state it did not cost you a dime to clear your name, did you not at least have to take a day off from work to appear in court, what about gas to and from court. Even a minor inconvenience like that would be a loss of money for me.

    Lastly, we all know that sometimes oficers make it up as they go along, how many permits have been seized by local PD incident to an arrest and sent off to DPS violating the state statute on revocations. I know of more than one. Some got it back others did not.

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    Regular Member brk913's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAR-VET View Post
    Gang activity is NO reason to violate someones right to lawful OC!! .
    Never said it was, just telling you the "justification" I was given for what would happen if they respond to MWAG call.




    Quote Originally Posted by USAR-VET View Post
    Has this happened to ANYONE yet, or just your opinion??.
    Not my opinion, again, it what I was told they would do and have done by the officers themsleves.



    Quote Originally Posted by USAR-VET View Post
    Sorry if the Barney Fife comment hurt your feelings, BUT you really can't be serious about OUR (OC'ers) attitudes as it's THE CC people who have an issue with OC and make that well known on the 'other' board. Again, we're not afraid of doing something that's perfectly legal here in CT.
    It's not that you hurt my feelings, it is that you do not know me and read part of a post then you lumped me in with a group "that opposes OUR right to open carry" because I reiterated what I have heard from the actual cops on the street and for some reason you think I agree with it, nothing could be further from the truth. I am serious about the attitude, look at your first comment to my post (appears it was edited to remove the name calling):

    Quote Originally Posted by USAR-VET View Post
    Exactly Rich. They're too fearful to OC, so they bash those who do. Wasted band width IMO, but always good for a laugh I guess. It's amazing how many of those guys proclaim to be huge 2nd Amendment supporters while at the same time trying to limit OUR rights towards OC. Oh well........
    If you knew me or even read any of my previous posts on either board you would see that I am exactly the opposite of the person you are describing here. I have never bashed anyone for OC, CC or not carrying at all, I OC myself, not every single day but about 50/50...that being said why would I want to limit OUR right to open carry. You should go over to that other site and read the posting that lead to my statement, it was basically calling the NB town ordinance on CC BS and had nothing to do with perpetuating the myth that something is wrong with OC, although there is something wrong with it, what's wrong is the entire LEO community is not on the same page.

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    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    Rich, you are asking me for the names of not just random officers but of my friends, one in particular is very adamant in his position no matter what paperwork or proof I show him. BTW all of them were also unaware of the Town Ordinance prohibiting concealed weapons, makes you wonder just who is "teaching them the laws".
    You are objecting to me asking for the identity of people who have told you that they will violate rights and the law after being informed of the law?

    Abuse under color of law is a federal offense, these officers need to be educated and informed before they make a very serious mistake.

    Not to mention we/I hear all the time from people who say an officer told them this or that.

    1) Never take legal advice from the police.
    2) Those people can never 'remember' who they talked to or have some other reason to hide the name of a public official who has chose to disobey the law.

    I for one will not believe someone who asserts that a faceless entity has told them this or that when all solid evidence (people OCing and even being briefly detained in New Britain) points to the contrary.

    This forum has a 'cite to authority' rule. I believe that is coming into play here.

    Not to change topics but a friend of mine and his wife went to Hamden PD for their pistol permits, they waited the 8 weeks and started calling about the status and were told that it would take another few weeks. My friends pointed out the state statute showing they must receive an answer within 8 weeks and this is what they were told not by one offficer but also a seargent, "That's an old law, nobody follows that anymore." With police officers out there making up there own laws on a daily basis it shows their mentality and what can happen even though the law is on your side.
    And did he immediately file an appeal with the BFPE? Did he get the names of the officers involved and get anyone else involved in his defense?

    Officers of the law do not make the law and in this state there are legal remedies when they try.

    As I stated in an earlier post, as of right now no one I have heard of has successfully sued a PD for false arrest over an unlawful OC arrest, not that it may not happen soon, and Rich I really hope it does happen for you, the harrassment you received in Wallingford was absolutely wrong.
    I don't understand how this is relevant. My case involved the officers learning before they booked me that BoP is not a valid charge for OC. Disorderly also fell flat immediately.

    Explain what supports your assertion that if you OC you can be charged with BoP.

    It seems to me that you are trying to cite anecdotal evidence that police can do whatever they want and charge you for whatever they want. If this is so, what difference does it make if you OC or not? They can just as easily stop, detain, ID and arrest you for anything else that is legal if what you are asserting is true.

    Ex: I have never heard of anyone in CT successfully suing the police department for false arrest because they rode a unicycle in public. Clearly no one should ever ride a unicycle in public.

    No one truly knows the number of OCers who have lost their permits or been charged, especially prior to this whole issue coming out in the last few years.
    I can't prove a negative. But this doesn't mean that you are proving anything with wild speculation and anecdotal evidence. No one here is asserting that no one has ever been in trouble for OC before. But Goldberg's case was the last really bad one we had where the police not only arrested for BoP, but also revoked and destroyed his firearm. Stay in the parameters of the discussion, otherwise you are only building strawmen.

    Remember, it was not to long ago that the BOFPE website stated you needed to keep your gun concealed from view.
    And this was immediately withdrawn from their website when it was pointed out to them that it carried no power of law and that state law said nothing about firearms needing to be concealed.

    I once saw something on a website that said horses can fly, but that holds about the same weight and relevance here.

    Also Rich you state it did not cost you a dime to clear your name, did you not at least have to take a day off from work to appear in court, what about gas to and from court. Even a minor inconvenience like that would be a loss of money for me.
    What does this have to do with anything? You can be arrested anytime, anywhere and for anything. And you will have to go defend yourself just like I did.

    But you are trying to scare people out of legal activity because it might cost them a tank of gas? I don't get that.


    Lastly, we all know that sometimes oficers make it up as they go along, how many permits have been seized by local PD incident to an arrest and sent off to DPS violating the state statute on revocations. I know of more than one. Some got it back others did not.
    Again, irrelevant. All of those seizures were illegal. I cannot speak for the people involved and why they did not go after the police department about it, but there are cases going on right now that will be tightening this area up.

    Again, just because the police got away with violating the law before doesn't mean that citizens have no legal remedies.

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    Regular Member brk913's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    You are objecting to me asking for the identity of people who have told you that they will violate rights and the law after being informed of the law?

    Abuse under color of law is a federal offense, these officers need to be educated and informed before they make a very serious mistake.

    Not to mention we/I hear all the time from people who say an officer told them this or that.

    1) Never take legal advice from the police.
    2) Those people can never 'remember' who they talked to or have some other reason to hide the name of a public official who has chose to disobey the law.

    I for one will not believe someone who asserts that a faceless entity has told them this or that when all solid evidence (people OCing and even being briefly detained in New Britain) points to the contrary.

    This forum has a 'cite to authority' rule. I believe that is coming into play here..
    Although I agree with your above comments and have informed my friends of the consequences of violating the rights of permit holders as well as any other citizens. I am not so sure a court would agree that approaching an armed person and disarming them while they "investigate" the situation would be considered an abuse under color of law (again I am not agreeing with it just stating what I have seen and heard when it comes to complaints against abuse of power, look at Philadelphia where they say they will continue to harrass OCers and they have allowable OC written right into the laws). FYI I also do not take legal advice from the police and have informed my friends that I do know the law and will follow it, I ask them to do the same. Again, I am on your side here, just relaying what I have been told. If you do not want to believe what I have been told that is your right. As ar as the "cite to authority" I will not drag my friends names through the mud no matter how ignorant they may be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    And did he immediately file an appeal with the BFPE? Did he get the names of the officers involved and get anyone else involved in his defense?

    Officers of the law do not make the law and in this state there are legal remedies when they try.
    The answer to this question is yes, this was a husband and wife who applied at the same time. They filed an immediate appeal and contacted the DPS to see if the background check had been sent back to HPD (it had been sent back to HPD a month earlier, contrary to what HPD told them). Results: They received their temp permits 4 days later (guess HPD realized they were on the wrong end of that battle). My point was that their are so many LEO who think they can do what they want because most people will not call them out on it, if more people did things would change.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    I don't understand how this is relevant. My case involved the officers learning before they booked me that BoP is not a valid charge for OC. Disorderly also fell flat immediately.

    Explain what supports your assertion that if you OC you can be charged with BoP.

    It seems to me that you are trying to cite anecdotal evidence that police can do whatever they want and charge you for whatever they want. If this is so, what difference does it make if you OC or not? They can just as easily stop, detain, ID and arrest you for anything else that is legal if what you are asserting is true.

    Ex: I have never heard of anyone in CT successfully suing the police department for false arrest because they rode a unicycle in public. Clearly no one should ever ride a unicycle in public.
    This was a response to the above poster who stated: Ah yes the" you will be arrested" line... funny how we hear that too in MI but there hase been only one actual arrest and in that case several people were fired and the OCer got a settlement.

    I am not asserting that if you OC you will be charged with BOP, in fact as I have stated several times in this thread I OC about half the time, if I really thought that it warranted any charge do you think I would continue to OC?

    I am not citing anecdotal evidence, I am stating that in fact LEO have in the past and probably continue to "do whatever they want" and have gotten away with it, I am not saying I like it or agree with it.

    Your unicycle analogy does not match up, we are talking about OC and the police believeing that OC is illegal, you know as well as I do that some officers just don't get it. Again, I am sure if someone can get revocation information for the past 20 years you will find numerous people who have lost their permit over it. This is part of the reason we are in the situation we are in, up until the last few years no one has called them on it. Again I am not telling anyone not to OC, still not sure why you do not understand that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    I can't prove a negative. But this doesn't mean that you are proving anything with wild speculation and anecdotal evidence. No one here is asserting that no one has ever been in trouble for OC before. But Goldberg's case was the last really bad one we had where the police not only arrested for BoP, but also revoked and destroyed his firearm. Stay in the parameters of the discussion, otherwise you are only building strawmen.
    My point is that Goldberg may have been the last but prior to him standing his ground and fighting back how many others lost their permits and/or guns? We may never know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    And this was immediately withdrawn from their website when it was pointed out to them that it carried no power of law and that state law said nothing about firearms needing to be concealed.

    I once saw something on a website that said horses can fly, but that holds about the same weight and relevance here.
    That was posted on their website for at least 15 years and no one called them on it till Goldberg. Although you say it carried no weight it sure has shaped the way LE continues to this day to argue the legality of OC, in fact I saw a post here within the last week or so where someone stated that the PD quoted that to them. That is why it is relevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    What does this have to do with anything? You can be arrested anytime, anywhere and for anything. And you will have to go defend yourself just like I did.

    But you are trying to scare people out of legal activity because it might cost them a tank of gas? I don't get that.
    It has to do with the fact that you stated, "I didn't spend a dime defending myself." which may be true for legal fees but there are other costs involved.

    ONE MORE TIME SO YOU CAN HEAR ME, I AM NOT TRYING TO SCARE ANYONE OUT OF ANYTHING, GO OC ALL YOU WANT, I FULLY SUPPORT IT AND WILL STAND WITH YOU AND IN FACT IN FRONT OF YOU IF YOU WISH, BUT IF YOU WANT ME TO SAY THAT THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN GET INTO A JAM FOR IT THAT WOULD BE A LIE DUE TO THE FACT THERE ARE STILL LEO WHO DO NOT UNDERSTAND AND FOLLOW THRE LAW. Granted in the end you will more than likely be exonerated for any "trouble" you get into but it could still prove a hassle for some.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    Again, irrelevant. All of those seizures were illegal. I cannot speak for the people involved and why they did not go after the police department about it, but there are cases going on right now that will be tightening this area up.

    Again, just because the police got away with violating the law before doesn't mean that citizens have no legal remedies.
    I do not understand how it is irrelevant, it shows a continued pattern of abusing the laws to the benefit of the police officers. I did not want to get into details on any of these but will give you one example. A friend was driving to get cofee in Berlin in his bosses car (boss sent him out in it). What he did not mention to my friend is his registration was expired and he had a small bag of pot under the seat. My friend was pulled over and was carrying his pistol, incident to the arrest for expired reg and prior to towing the car they searched it, found the pot and arrested my ffriend and seized his pistol and permit, they shipped his permit off to DPS. After going to court where the case was thrown out due to it not being his vehicle he was able to immediatly recover his seized pistol from the PD, however, due to the fact that he no longer held a valid permit I actually had to go down there and pick it up with him. The DPS held his permit till just before his appeal to the BOFPE (almost a year) and then just mailed it back to him prior to his appeal being heard. Did the Berlin PD get in trouble for what they did? Did the DPS tell them they were wrong? The answer is no. Could my friend have tried to sue them? Maybe but that costs money, money he does not have. Can we ask to have the officer who seized the permit arrested for violating state statute? I doubt it. So please tell me Rich, what is the remedy here? How can we get it to stop if we cannot afford to sue? Even if you do sue the courts always seem to hold the police to a lower standard. Remember the State Trooper who had an accidental discharge at the Bushnell, he did not lose his permit, get reprimanded or anything else, what do you think would have happened if it was you or I?

  22. #22
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    I am not so sure a court would agree that approaching an armed person and disarming them while they "investigate" the situation would be considered an abuse under color of law (again I am not agreeing with it just stating what I have seen and heard when it comes to complaints against abuse of power, look at Philadelphia where they say they will continue to harrass OCers and they have allowable OC written right into the laws).
    You are using as evidence a case that has not even entered court.

    How about I cite two cases where the courts have already decided?

    - St. John v. McColley
    - Terry v. Ohio

    You cannot harass any citizen without reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime. Open carry is not a crime.

    So, yes, these cases are being won all across the country, and they will continue to be.

    If you do not want to believe what I have been told that is your right. As ar as the "cite to authority" I will not drag my friends names through the mud no matter how ignorant they may be.
    Well what have you given me to believe? That an anonymous poster on the internet heard a cop say "OC is illegal", just like we have all heard a thousand times before?

    Wallingford used to say the same thing.

    My point was that their are so many LEO who think they can do what they want because most people will not call them out on it, if more people did things would change.
    Right, and police will continue to think OC is not legal and that they can infringe upon a carrier's rights until more people do it and defend themselves when necessary against their infringements.


    I am not asserting that if you OC you will be charged with BOP, in fact as I have stated several times in this thread I OC about half the time, if I really thought that it warranted any charge do you think I would continue to OC?
    But you do assert that no one could OC in New Britain because they will be proned out, arrested for OC and their permit revoked.

    I am not citing anecdotal evidence, I am stating that in fact LEO have in the past and probably continue to "do whatever they want" and have gotten away with it, I am not saying I like it or agree with it.
    Cite one time they 'got away with it'.

    Your unicycle analogy does not match up, we are talking about OC and the police believeing that OC is illegal, you know as well as I do that some officers just don't get it.
    What doesn't match up? OC is as legal as riding unicycles. I cannot tell you for sure whether or not most police officers are aware of the laws regarding unicycles.

    Again, I am sure if someone can get revocation information for the past 20 years you will find numerous people who have lost their permit over it.
    You say that like you cannot get it or people have not gotten it before.

    http://ctgunrights.com/00.Docs/SLFU....00%20pages.pdf
    http://ctgunrights.com/00.Docs/SLFU....00%20pages.pdf
    http://ctgunrights.com/00.Docs/SLFU....00%20pages.pdf
    http://ctgunrights.com/00.Docs/SLFU....00%20pages.pdf
    http://ctgunrights.com/00.Docs/SLFU....00%20pages.pdf

    There is plenty more where that comes from if you want it: http://ctgunrights.com

    I cannot prove a negative, but you have the data now, feel free to show all these OC cases where permits were revoked.

    Again I am not telling anyone not to OC, still not sure why you do not understand that.
    You very effectively spread the OC myth and FUD about officers 'proning people out' and arresting for BoP in New Britain. If your disagreement stands from you not discouraging OC state wide and only in New Britain, I can agree to that, but it is equally wrong. State law is supreme in these regards.


    My point is that Goldberg may have been the last but prior to him standing his ground and fighting back how many others lost their permits and/or guns? We may never know.
    Nor does it matter.


    That was posted on their website for at least 15 years and no one called them on it till Goldberg. Although you say it carried no weight it sure has shaped the way LE continues to this day to argue the legality of OC, in fact I saw a post here within the last week or so where someone stated that the PD quoted that to them. That is why it is relevant.
    It carries no weight of law, no matter who quotes it, believes it, etc. CGS 29-35 is crystal clear.

    It carried just as much weight as the guy at counter of a gun store telling everyone how OC will get them arrested and have SWAT teams moving in.

    It carried just as much weight as someone on the internet telling people they will get 'proned out' and arrested if someone 'makes them'.

    It has to do with the fact that you stated, "I didn't spend a dime defending myself." which may be true for legal fees but there are other costs involved.
    So your entire argument is "OC might cost you a tank of gas! Don't do it in New Britain!"?

    ONE MORE TIME SO YOU CAN HEAR ME, I AM NOT TRYING TO SCARE ANYONE OUT OF ANYTHING
    But you did help spread the myth of OCers being 'proned out' and arrested in New Britain which has that effect of scaring many CT residents out of OCing. That is what this thread is about, no?


    Granted in the end you will more than likely be exonerated for any "trouble" you get into but it could still prove a hassle for some.
    So how would this be like any other arrest for any other law abiding behavior? Would you advise me to not smoke on the sidewalk in case an officer doesn't understand CT's smoking laws and decides to arrest me?


    it shows a continued pattern of abusing the laws to the benefit of the police officers.
    Officers you refuse to bring to light for promising the same abuses.

    Did the Berlin PD get in trouble for what they did? Did the DPS tell them they were wrong? The answer is no.
    Did you expect the PD to sue themselves? To discipline themselves?

    So please tell me Rich, what is the remedy here?
    Between doing nothing and doing nothing? I would have done something, just like I did with Wallingford and Old Saybrook.

    How can we get it to stop if we cannot afford to sue?
    Do you think I have a money tree growing outside of my house? I am going after Wallingford on my own dime, with a few small (and yet very generous) contributions from some great people here who actually believe in fighting for the cause.

    There are way more people in CT who are gun owners who won't contribute though and will just sit idly by condemning lawful behavior because they don't 'agree with' something that person did. I suppose that is easier than throwing a few bucks towards a cause, or helping with FOI requests or something, but ultimately that is their choice.

    I am in it for tens of thousands of dollars. Are you contributing anything to anyone's case?


    Even if you do sue the courts always seem to hold the police to a lower standard. Remember the State Trooper who had an accidental discharge at the Bushnell, he did not lose his permit, get reprimanded or anything else, what do you think would have happened if it was you or I?
    Then get out there and support some of these cases in CT to help fix it.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Not sure about CT, here in MO, the $35 infraction is due to not having the permit on your person, not being legally permitted CCW.
    Same here. The poster was referring to having local police illegally confiscate (steal) your permit and not being able to carry after that.

    As long as the permit is still valid, you are only subject to the infraction.

  24. #24
    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    snip.... So please tell me Rich, what is the remedy here? How can we get it to stop if we cannot afford to sue?
    Open carry, every day, wherever it is legal. Get friends to go with you. Record everything (if legal in CT).

    After all, isn't the catchphrase of this site "A right unexercised is a right lost" ? Many brave, law-abiding citizens around the country have stood up to illegalities propagated by local PD's. Outcomes have been, of course, mixed. The point is, however, things will never change unless citizens try to change the status quo.

    Rich B, thanks for what you do in CT. I hope your actions inspire others to take a stand for their rights. I hope my actions do the same here in VA. I KNOW FOR A FACT THE TYPES OF TRANSGRESSIONS ALLUDED TO BY THE OP WILL NOT STOP UNLESS THEY ARE FOUGHT. Be a man or be a wimp. Your choice.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    A permit is required to OC in CT?
    We have a pistol which allows either concealed or open carry.

    As a bonus, we have no actual brandishing law.

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