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Thread: Officer's words on Detainment and RAS

  1. #1
    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    Officer's words on Detainment and RAS

    Here is an officer's written opinion on Detainment and RAS in an incident.

    "In cases I was talking about when I routinely get a call for service (not self initiated) call in which an armed person is involved I simply approach the party involved. That is not stopping someone. My initial contact is usually me telling them, hey I was called here by a citizen, I know it's legal to carry open and carry concealed in some cases and I do that so they do not feel like they are being stopped. If they ignore me and walk away the contact is done absent Reasonable Suspicion and/or Probable Cause.
    That is not what I would call a stop, seizure, detention or any other form of limiting a person's freedom.
    You are right though, if I initiate the contact absent being called there just my observation or attempt to proactively do my job I make the dialog one in which a reasonable person would not feel detained."

    Bolding added by me for emphasis.
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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Nuts to that. Where I live, a MWG call usually ends when the dispatcher asks if the MGW is causing trouble or harming anyone. If not, the caller is told to have a nice day and they hang up.

    The only time a peace officer has approached me on the street was to discuss what I was carrying have a friendly argument about what constitutes a "real gun." I happen to like my SP101 for a carry gun, and lots of my deputy friends think I ought to go back to carrying the XD .45.

    But yes... if a "cop" in a city starts to chat you up about the gun... look him in the eye and then walk away without a word. Conversations with "cops" are usually far more dangerous than loaded guns.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    You my friend should feel privileged to live in such an area where officers respect the citizens. Even the officer that stated those words knows and respects enough to be reasonable. If we had more of them, we would be doing ok. But the problem is many don't hold those same beliefs.
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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motofixxer View Post
    You my friend should feel privileged to live in such an area where officers respect the citizens. Even the officer that stated those words knows and respects enough to be reasonable. If we had more of them, we would be doing ok. But the problem is many don't hold those same beliefs.
    Not a privilege... a privilege is something someone else can give or take at their whim.

    Living here was a choice. I came from So. Calif. I know what tyranny looks and feels like. I chose to live where we are much more free. And we remain free because we all know what it takes and do the hard part of preserving our freedom as individuals. Nobody can do it for us, and we don't expect anyone to give us freedom.

    Freedom, and self defense are basic human rights.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    That was all he stated, it was a comment on an open carry thread.
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    "To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason, Speech of June 14, 1788

    http://Tinyurl.com/New-To-Guns to DL useful Info

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Good for him. We need more cops like that. Fortunately, here in COS, we have them.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    I took it to mean that he is interacting in a citizen-to-citizen mode.

    LEOs should not feel restrained to be hands off until there is a crime. They should interact with all manner of civilians routinely in a way that is clearly not coming from their position of authority.

    I am sure that is what the officer meant by his being proactive. That kind of routine contact should be welcomed as opposed to all contacts being official. The lack of routine, unofficial, citizen-to-citizen contact is one of the major contributors to the them-vs-us attitude from both groups.

    I enjoyed the hour-long discussion we had with a uniformed officer at Starbucks one Sunday. The two official detentions? Not so much.

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    I would amend what you said to "singling out for official action." The officer with whom we chatted at Starbucks approached us because we were carrying. I don't have a problem with that.

    At all times, we felt that we were free to leave. We chose not to because he was a genuinely nice guy and the convo was interesting and informative.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    I agree with cops interacting in a non-confrontational venue whenever possible. The ones who think they are above mingling with the 'little people' don't belong in the job. We pay their salaries, overpay in most cases, so they owe their 'employers' polite interaction, not an attitutude. If more did this, suspicion would become less inevitable and maybe the start to trust could be accomplished. Not finished--hardly, but started. That and weeding out the thugs and criminals and putting them where they belong without the BS 'blue' wall of silence. Until that is broken down, I'll never trust cops beyond personal experience, and I would suggest anyone who does is a fool. They have the duty and means to improve relations with those they are supposed to serve. We have the means to ensure they do so.

    I see eye added something while I was writing this. His example of "personal experience" with the cop is exactly what I was talking about.
    Last edited by Gunslinger; 06-14-2011 at 03:32 PM.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I took it to mean that he is interacting in a citizen-to-citizen mode.

    LEOs should not feel restrained to be hands off until there is a crime. They should interact with all manner of civilians routinely in a way that is clearly not coming from their position of authority.
    In a utopia sure, but what's to stop him from switching back to LEO/position of authority if you say something he doesn't like?

    I have chatted with a few LEOs but only in a specific venue, such as the lobby of a gun show where everyone is relaxed and hey, there are already a bunch 'o guns there so he's not seeing a big deal, making it all more friendly. If he seems bored or annoyed, I just thank him and wander off back to the show. It's one of the few places in which it's pretty safe to chat Citizen-to-Citizen or just talk guns and hunting.

    $.02

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    And I wouldn't have a problem with that either. I certainly will chat with an officer all day long, until a leading question gets asked such as, "So...where are you headed today?" or "You don't mind if I look at or see some...."

    We all know the first step in interrogation is to convince the subject that they have nothing to lose by talking.
    Or,

    "So, what is your full name?"


    Response? [silence]
    Last edited by wrightme; 06-14-2011 at 04:09 PM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    And I wouldn't have a problem with that either. I certainly will chat with an officer all day long, until a leading question gets asked such as, "So...where are you headed today?" or "You don't mind if I look at or see some...."

    We all know the first step in interrogation is to convince the subject that they have nothing to lose by talking.
    I have conversations with LEO quite often. The different State troopers that frequent Starbucks and have ran into them off the clock too. I have never felt them or sensed them going into "investigation" information mode. They have never even asked my name.

    Now I have also had quite a few where I can tell (mostly city cops and a few deputies) they are fishing for info and something to 'get me' on.

    Open carrying has been a great way to meet people and talk to many people who are just regular joes and some who are cops. I just remain on my gaurd a little more with the cops....
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 06-14-2011 at 09:48 PM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    In a utopia sure, but what's to stop him from switching back to LEO/position of authority if you say something he doesn't like?

    I have chatted with a few LEOs but only in a specific venue, such as the lobby of a gun show where everyone is relaxed and hey, there are already a bunch 'o guns there so he's not seeing a big deal, making it all more friendly. If he seems bored or annoyed, I just thank him and wander off back to the show. It's one of the few places in which it's pretty safe to chat Citizen-to-Citizen or just talk guns and hunting.

    $.02
    The problem develops when they go all official without cause. Until then, I will assume that they are just another GG with a gun.

  14. #14
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Folks!
    That is something I referred to in another thread, which is to evaluate the demeanor of the cop, just as certainly as he evaluates your demeanor. If an LEO is being friendly and chatty, great! It behooves us to do what we can to have good relations with LEOs. After all, the power is entirely on their end of the stick. For us to get all "uppity" does us no good whatsoever.

    That being said, yes, one must be wary of when an LEO might translate from fellow citizen to official of the local government. I'll be friendly and cooperative to a point, but when I get the sense that he is trying to investigate me, then the behavior of the cop will certainly change my own.

    Interaction with an LEO is a fluid dynamic. Treating them like people, being friendly and open, can quickly defuse the initial attitude an LEO might have. If he comes on strong only to be confronted with a friendly and peacable citizen, it makes things tough on them to remain officious. If they do, however, we can still accomplish more by remaining friendly but still stand upon our rights.

    In a perfect world, the police would all be considerate of the citizens they are sworn to protect. And all the citizens who carry arms would be civil and friendly to the officers. This isn't a perfect world. I've seen on the OCDO site some that appear overly combative toward LEOs. I've also been on Officer.com and seen they have members who are overly combative toward citizens. Fortunately, those at the far ends of the spectrum are not the majority on either side.

    The cops are concerned about criminals in our midst. So are we.
    They carry weapons for their own defense and that of the citizens they are sworn to protect. So do we. Are we really that far apart?

    The officer must remember that he took an oath to preserve and defend the Constitution of the United States of America, and likely the Constitution of their state as well. They exist as an organization to fight crime and protect the citizens under their jurisdiction. They must remember that all law abiding citizens, not breaking any laws, are their fellow citizens. Some LEOs tend to forget they are citizens too. Then again, some of us need to appreciate that LEOs are there to serve the public good. They aren't all "out to get us", and they are our partners in securing our safety and welfare.

    Some folks disagreed with my views on the other thread I posted, and I am sure to get some disagreement here too. That's okay with me. I just remember what my grandmother said so often: "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar." If we can build better relations between LEOs and armed citizens, I believe we should strive toward that goal. It is in our own best interest to do so. We need them, and they surely need us. A symbiotic relationship between citizen and LEO serves the aims of both groups far better than an adversarial view of "the other guy".

    I wish I could cross post this on Officer.com, but being a civilian, I'm sure I would see my post removed because I ain't an LEO. But those who seem reasonable on both sides can make a huge difference to the benefit of both. We, open carriers and armed citizen, and LEO need to remember... I ain't the enemy. They ain't the enemy. The enemy is the criminal element that is of great concern to both sides.

    I suspect that most cops haven't had a criminal stick a pistol in their face when alone on a dark street. I have. I'd have given anything for a cop to have been cruising by when that happened. There were none. Just a criminal, a pistol, and my continued existence suddenly tentative. They did a heckuva job getting paperwork about the robbery after the fact, but they were not there when I was confronted with a deadly threat. That experience taught me that I must be prepared to defend my own life. The LEO should understand that simple concept and accept that we all have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They also need to understand and accept that the citizen has rights under the constitution to keep and bear arms. And so long as the citizen is carrying lawfully and responsibly, they should not infringe on those rights.

    It ain't about showing off, or looking for an encounter with an LEO to get him in hot water with IA, or bust his chops for doing his job. It is about defending my own life.
    Perhaps if they'd been there when I needed them most, I'd feel differently about carrying. Now I carry, because I understand they just can't be everywhere at all times. It ain't their fault, just the reality of how things are. They know this too, and should understand that we are exercising our rights for our own defense and view us as fellow citizens who are ready to confront crime when it comes our way.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    thanks for sharing,,,,
    i saw you posted, i knew it would be wordy,
    and pretty much not worth reading to find all of the thoughts you have,
    cause they are all buried in excessive and unnecessary verbiage.
    you dont stand up for the Right to just be left alone.
    officer safety.
    right to feel safe.
    need to know if im a felon.
    check to see if my gun is stolen.
    etc.etc.etc...
    dont make excuses for the cops to violate our rights,
    just because were carrying a gun is not an excuse to stop and check us out!
    Last edited by 1245A Defender; 06-15-2011 at 09:13 AM.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

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  16. #16
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    thanks for sharing,,,,
    i saw you posted, i knew it would be wordy,
    and pretty much not worth reading to find all of the thoughts you have,
    cause they are all buried in excessive and unnecessary verbiage.
    you dont stand up for the Right to just be left alone.
    officer safety.
    right to feel safe.
    need to know if im a felon.
    check to see if my gun is stolen.
    etc.etc.etc...
    dont make excuses for the cops to violate our rights,
    just because were carrying a gun is not an excuse to stop and check us out!
    Yeah, I agree. Though I have some LEO friends, Sheriff of Albemarle Co was a workout buddy, I really don't want to 'talk to the cops', and want to be left alone.

    I don't want to help them or hinder them, I don't like that when you call them they investigate -you- (the complaintant) first, I don't like it when they rush in and sometimes prone out and/or shoot both the victim and the felon, and I DESPISE the way most 9-11 operators act - frequently obstructive and blabby and all butt-hurt if you are in panic mode taking time to say 'Don't use that language on me, sir' if you say 'get the HELL over here now. Sheesh.

    Do your job in a professional manner, follow your own laws, treat a citizen as such and not as a scum of the earth felon, be nice if you can to the person you're trying to arrest.

    Case in point I watched a State Trooper, lic # 4818 speeding 60mph down a twisty 45mph four lane yellow line divided road, talking on his cell TAILGATING everyone at 3 feet off their bumper, even guys in the slow (rt hand) lane to force them over, and blew through a red light, no sirens or lights running. He seemed uber casual, not on a call, leaning against the side post of his car, right hand with cell phone the whole time. That's just wrong!

    /rant.
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 06-15-2011 at 11:43 AM.
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