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Thread: Get documentation of your training

  1. #1
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    Get documentation of your training

    These comments have nothing to do with training for the permit I don't want to open that argument...

    What I am referring to is getting training so you can offer some proof in court that you know how to handle a firearm, know the laws, know self defense issues and show yourself as a responsible carrying citizen.

    Many have argued for no-training to obtain a permit. That's fine. But, that should not be ones approach to carrying and to defending yourself in court.

    I have provided expert testimony in hundreds of cases (not firearms related). One has to prove himself as an expert; someone who should be seen capable to provide information to the court. You are not presumed competent just because you think you know something, or have a license.

    In a similar manner, we should be thinking how we want to represent ourselves to the court/jury if we have to sway them on the point that we really did now what we were doing when we pulled that trigger.

    I would recommend people consider getting a documented basic pistol class and an advanced class, and private lessons if you can.

    I would also like to see some lawyers offer classes covering the law, self defense, justification, lethal force, harming of innocents, how to conduct yourself when you are arrested after a shooting, etc.

    I hear folks talk about have been around guns all their lives, or having military training. These do not prepare us to deal with legal consequences of a shooting incident.

    So, this bill provides a minimum of requirement for the license. But, one should not be thinking of the "minimum" when considering training for a shooting incident or the aftermath of it.

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    Regular Member mliederbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksks View Post

    I would also like to see some lawyers offer classes covering the law, self defense, justification, lethal force, harming of innocents, how to conduct yourself when you are arrested after a shooting, etc.

    I hear folks talk about have been around guns all their lives, or having military training. These do not prepare us to deal with legal consequences of a shooting incident.

    So, this bill provides a minimum of requirement for the license. But, one should not be thinking of the "minimum" when considering training for a shooting incident or the aftermath of it.
    You bring up a great point. For those of us that consider ourselves "gun experts", we still need to know the laws and and the consqeunces of shooting or just pulling out our weapons.

    I love the idea of lawyers offering classes on said topics.

    Thanks

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    We have to remember whose game we're playing.

    I'm sure there are some on here who are gun experts and I'd hate to go up against them in a competition.

    In a court room...I definitely don't want to go up against those experts! Especially with a first grade legal education.

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    Regular Member cleveland's Avatar
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    Massad Ayoob recommends documenting every book you've read, every video you've watched, every class you've taken etc... As I understand it, it helps prove that your are educated on these particular topics.

    He also says that the moment you pull the trigger is when the fight begins, not ends.

    I would like to take his course as I understand it is one of the best classes regarding the legal aspects of a defensive shooting. Damned finances holding me back... as usual.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksks View Post
    Many have argued for no-training to obtain a permit. That's fine. But, that should not be ones approach to carrying and to defending yourself in court.

    I have provided expert testimony in hundreds of cases (not firearms related). One has to prove himself as an expert; someone who should be seen capable to provide information to the court. You are not presumed competent just because you think you know something, or have a license.
    IANAL, but this seems like spurious thinking to me in the milieu in which we practice carrying.

    I'd think the best client would be a 60 y.o. grannie who never takes the stand and just grabbed her hubby's service revolver and let fly with her eyes closed.

    If I had to use my HG in extremis I'd almost want it to be 'without thought and premeditation', in fear for my loved one's life.

    Again, I don't know anything about the subject of 'defending one's self in court' but the more 'thought and premeditation' I'd think the worse for you getting off.

    Now, -logically- it makes sense to you and me, wanting to do a 'good shoot'. So take this with a grain of gunpowder.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksks
    ...classes covering the law, self defense, justification, lethal force, harming of innocents, how to conduct yourself when you are arrested after a shooting, etc.
    There are articles about such topics on Massad Ayoob's site, as well as Cornered Cat, as well as in the USCCA magazine. But having more info is a good thing. Wonder if there are any gun-friendly lawyers who'd do classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson
    I'd think the best client would be a 60 y.o. grannie who never takes the stand and just grabbed her hubby's service revolver and let fly with her eyes closed.
    ... the more 'thought and premeditation' I'd think the worse for you getting off.
    An interesting way to look at it.
    Though I think you're confusing 'premeditation' for killing with 'preparing' for self-defense.

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    Massad Ayoob recommends documenting every book you've read, every video you've watched, every class you've taken etc... As I understand it, it helps prove that your are educated on these particular topics.

    He also says that the moment you pull the trigger is when the fight begins, not ends.

    I would like to take his course as I understand it is one of the best classes regarding the legal aspects of a defensive shooting. Damned finances holding me back... as usual.


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    Regular Member Grant Guess's Avatar
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    If you hunt around on YouTube, there are videos of experts on escalating force and legal ramifications of using a force multiplier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ksks View Post
    I would also like to see some lawyers offer classes covering the law, self defense, justification, lethal force, harming of innocents, how to conduct yourself when you are arrested after a shooting, etc.

    I hear folks talk about have been around guns all their lives, or having military training. These do not prepare us to deal with legal consequences of a shooting incident.
    As to the first point above, I will tell you that I've had presentations from lawyers, and I've had presentations from LEOs about "how to conduct yourself" after a shooting. First of all, don't feel that you'll necessarily be arrested after a shooting, but on the other hand, don't be surprised either. Expect to be arrested, and if you're not, you'll be pleasantly surprised.

    Almost universally the lawyers recommend you say nothing, or very little after a shooting incident. The police on the other hand want you to talk, and to say as much as you can. After all, it makes they're job easier. I suppose the lawyers say not talking makes their job easier too. I consider this somewhat of a double standard, because when a police officer is involved in a shooting they often allow the officer plenty of time before trying to get a statement. Officer or not, it's likely you'll be somewhat excited after being involved in a shooting. And when excited there is a tendency to blather on without much restraint. So beware.

    A detective told me that when he questions a person he doesn't particularly care if they're telling the truth or a lie, what he's looking for is any statements that are contradictory. Obviously if you make contradictory statements, you're putting yourself in a more difficult spot. In my opinion, the less you say, the less chance you'll have of making contradictory statements.

    So I tend to side with the lawyers' advice on this one. I know the police have the job of gathering as much information as they can in order to sort out what happened. But as far as I'm concerned, any information that I have for them will still be there the next day and after I've talked with a lawyer. They aren't going to wrap up their investigation within a few minutes of a shooting in any event, so making them wait a day for a statement, while you calm down and compose your thoughts is not going to be a burden on the police.

    I'm willing to sit in jail overnight and let some time pass before making a statement, if it lessens the chance that I'm sitting in jail for a long time.

    What you say after a shooting isn't the only important consideration. What you say prior to, or during a shooting is also important. If there are witnesses around you want them to be able to tell the police that they heard you yell "get back" "go away" "stop! don't hurt me!" "somebody call the police" "drop the weapon" or similar statements. You don't want them to say, I heard him yell "die mother****!" or "I'm going to blow your damn fool head off!" It is best to make it automatic that you yell something like "drop the weapon!" while you shoot in training. And after you've fired your gun, yell "call 911, call the police, call an ambulance." Think about what you would say to an attacker, and don't make personal, racial or other irrelevant comments to them. Good self-defense training will incorporate the verbal portion with the shooting portion.

    As to the second point, you're absolutely correct. Proficiency with a firearm is completely unrelated to proficiency with the legal aspects of carrying or using a firearm. A skilled marksman and tactician may still have very poor judgment. I've seen some examples of that in these very forums.

    Nowadays you have to be prepared to fight two battles, one on the streets and one in the court. If your "expert" cannot exhibit both the firearms skills and the good judgment required, then their expertise is of questionable value to himself and to you.
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    Regular Member BrewTownBagger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    Massad Ayoob recommends documenting every book you've read, every video you've watched, every class you've taken etc... As I understand it, it helps prove that your are educated on these particular topics.

    He also says that the moment you pull the trigger is when the fight begins, not ends.

    I would like to take his course as I understand it is one of the best classes regarding the legal aspects of a defensive shooting. Damned finances holding me back... as usual.
    I've taken his course and it was outstanding. And yes he's big on documenting all of you courses, notes, books etc and mailing them to yourself in certified mail. That way if anything comes up and you have to sit on the witness stand you can introduce that envelope into evidence.

    May not sound like a big deal but more than 2/3 of massad's course is sitting in the room watching his training videos. He has you keep track in your notes the names and titles of the videos that he shows, so those videos can and will be introduced into evidence when they open your sealed envelope and look at the course notes from his class

    Now you have a jury of 12 who know nothing about the use of deadly force being educated by massad's training videos, and learning everything there is to know about conceal carry, reaction times, stress fire etc. That's what you call being judge by your peers. (people who know as much as you do on the subject)

    Not to mention massad himself will testify as a expert witness on your behalf

    It was the best $400.00 I have ever spent and I can't wait to take his range course later this month
    Last edited by BrewTownBagger; 06-10-2011 at 11:59 PM.

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    And even if you do not document, or cannot document your training, you ought to be able to articulate it. If an investigator or prosecutor asks you why you shot that guy who was a "whole fifteen feet away from you and only had a knife in his hand" you better not stammer something about the evil look on his face, but explain why, based on your training he was a real threat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrewTownBagger View Post
    Not to mention massad himself will testify as a expert witness on your behalf
    Sounds like a great way to spend $400. Seriously.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    What you say after a shooting isn't the only important consideration. What you say prior to, or during a shooting is also important....
    I would also consider "prior to" having a meaning of what is said on the internet. There is a lot of anger and vile rhetoric written, even on this site. If your posts reflect angry, even quasi threats, you should probably rethink what you write.

    If your history is brought up and it depicts an kind, helpful person who was in an unfortunate position of having to use a gun, that looks a lot different that one who regularly posts angry comments. Talking about how you would blast someone who attacked your family, or other casual comments about killing someone, will not bode well when character issues are in play.

    I would wish gun owners hold themselves up to higher standards by choice. I know the assistant district atty will.

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    A Different Kind of Training

    Perhaps a course could be organized along the lines "Law and Concealed Carry" - find a sympathetic and knowledgable attorney to teach about the legal aspects of firearms (use) and how to behave under certain circumstances. He could be your go to guy in case of things going south (always carry his card). Good lawyers aren't inexpensive but if you could get 25 participants to fork over $30 for 2-3 hours, it might be feasible. Surely the Milwaukee-Madison corridor could support such an undertaking.

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    The majority of attorneys are not criminal attorneys. Of those that are criminal attorneys, how many here in Wisconsin have any extensive knowledge in defending citizens involved in defensive shootings? Next to none.

    Massad spends much of his time teaching attorneys how to defend those charged with a crime because of a defensive shooting. My point is please do not rely on any advice from an attorney unless he/she has extensive experience specific in defending defensive shootings AND has a great track record of keeping his clients out of jail and prison. It is your ass that will be sitting in prison, not the inexperienced attorney should he give you bad advice.

    If you are involved in a defensive shooting and you feel strongly that you did the right/lawful thing, then not talking to the police is horrible advice and will almost certainly result in you going to jail for days, weeks or months should you be charged. Not to mention that if you remain silent you may lose the opportunity to ID witness or point out evidence that supports your version of events and that evidence and those witnesses may end up being lost. If it was a lawful shooting, you need to tell the police the main facts of the events. Stay away from time lines and minute detail as your mind will not perceive them correctly and you may look like a liar should you make an error. Identify to the police who the witnesses are before they leave the scene.

    After describing to the police the main facts of the event, tell the police, "I have every intention of fully cooperating with this investigation but I do not want to make any more statements until I confer with my attorney". If you want to go home that night, you need to tell the police enough so they can see it was a justifiable shooting. Remaining silent is just stupid.

    On the other hand, if you messed up and should not have shot, remaining silent is great advice.

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    Massad often says, "Know where the attack is going to come from and prepare your counter measure." He is not talking about just the act of the defensive use of a firearm, he is talking about any opportunity you may give a DA to attack you should you be a defendant in a defensive shooting incident. Things like the type of gun you carry, the type of ammo you carry, the type of grips you have on your gun, the amount of training you have, what you said before or right after a defensive shooting incident, what you said to the witnesses, to the police, may be used against you.

    The second you pull the trigger on another human being, the stars line up against you and you best have all your ducks in a row if you want to stay out of prison. As Massad says, "Whenever you shoot a human being, you are on ice. We just want to make sure you are on thick ice." Massad relayed several stories of law abiding people being involved in a justified defensive shooting that are rotting in jail because of something they said or did that hung em. "Know where the attack is going to come from and prepare your counter measure."

    If you plan on carrying I cannot emphasize enough how important taking Massad's class is. Taking his class is a major step in keeping you out of prison should you be involved in a defensive shooting. Wearing a gun places great power in your hands and with it comes great responsibility to yourself, your loved ones and the community at large. I am not preaching here, I just do not want to see any innocent person getting hurt or imprisoned.
    Last edited by Max; 06-12-2011 at 11:38 AM.

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