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Thread: Kalamazoo gun show violating state preemption

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Kalamazoo gun show violating state preemption

    When the gun show comes to Kalamazoo they host it on the Kalamazoo County Fairgrounds (http://www.migunshows.com/zoopage.html) They ban the carry of firearms at the show and having looked at Kzoo's County website they own and regulate the fairgrounds (they do not mention the carry of guns except for bb and paintball but that's it). So from what I can tell the gun show cannot ban carry. If I am wrong someone please correct me I'm always willing to learn new stuff and if I'm write help me with the email I intend to send them. Thanks all carry on!
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  2. #2
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    http://www.migunshows.com/index.html this is prob a better link.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  3. #3
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    For others fallowing...
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...rty-preemption

    IMHO your correct sir. IF the county owns the fairgrounds, their cannot be firearm restrictions. ***IANAL***

    Quote Originally Posted by FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION (EXCERPT)
    Act 319 of 1990

    123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
    Sec. 2.
    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
    Good on ya for the find BTW! Keep up on it!
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 06-11-2011 at 02:30 AM.
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    State preemption laws usually only impact policies of localities, not policies of private parties who have leased premises owned by localities.

    Preemption does not "run with the land" unless the state statute expressly provides for it.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    State preemption laws usually only impact policies of localities, not policies of private parties who have leased premises owned by localities.

    Preemption does not "run with the land" unless the state statute expressly provides for it.
    I don't believe this is how it works in Michigan, Mike. I posted in the other thread, and responded to your post their. I don't want to cross post, and have two threads with the same of my posts going.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Yeah I'd like to hear from the guys who dealt with some of the festivals/events who tried to ban handguns on city property so I can get an idea for best course of action.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Yeah I'd like to hear from the guys who dealt with some of the festivals/events who tried to ban handguns on city property so I can get an idea for best course of action.
    FOIA. Get a copy of the contract/use permit. That's the first place to start.
    Last edited by scot623; 06-11-2011 at 09:48 PM.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    FOIA. Get a copy of the contract/use permit. That's the first place to start.
    1. Would that be public record?
    2. I'm out of state for the summer so getting it might be a little difficult.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  9. #9
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Yes it would be a public record. If you would like help with the FOIA just let me know. Either PM me here or rransom@miopencarry.org

    I may be out of the state next week for a few days but I will still have internet.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Yes it would be a public record. If you would like help with the FOIA just let me know. Either PM me here or rransom@miopencarry.org

    I may be out of the state next week for a few days but I will still have internet.

    Best time of the year just started (wink, wink, nudge nudge), eh Autosurgeon?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    When the gun show comes to Kalamazoo they host it on the Kalamazoo County Fairgrounds (http://www.migunshows.com/zoopage.html) They ban the carry of firearms at the show and having looked at Kzoo's County website they own and regulate the fairgrounds (they do not mention the carry of guns except for bb and paintball but that's it). So from what I can tell the gun show cannot ban carry. If I am wrong someone please correct me I'm always willing to learn new stuff and if I'm write help me with the email I intend to send them. Thanks all carry on!
    Are you positive that they ban carry? I have not attended that show, but I have carried at other gun shows put on by the same orginization.
    Last edited by maustin195; 06-12-2011 at 06:23 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maustin195 View Post
    Are you positive that they ban carry? I have not attended that show, but I have carried at other gun shows put on by the same orginization.
    did you miss this?

    ATTENTION:
    When bringing firearms into a Gun & Knife Show Please follow these simple steps.

    1. Bring the firearm in with no ammunition in the weapon.

    2. Notify security if you have any ammunition. They will check in all ammunition as you enter.

    3. Have firearm inspected and safety strapped so that it may not operate inside the show.

    4. Be sure to stop back and retrieve ammunition on your way out of the show. All straps on firearms may be removed at that time.

    The only exception to this rule is if you are a police officer with badge and I.D. Or an officer on duty in uniform.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    did you miss this?

    ATTENTION:
    When bringing firearms into a Gun & Knife Show Please follow these simple steps.

    1. Bring the firearm in with no ammunition in the weapon.

    2. Notify security if you have any ammunition. They will check in all ammunition as you enter.

    3. Have firearm inspected and safety strapped so that it may not operate inside the show.

    4. Be sure to stop back and retrieve ammunition on your way out of the show. All straps on firearms may be removed at that time.

    The only exception to this rule is if you are a police officer with badge and I.D. Or an officer on duty in uniform.
    Thank you saved me the time for looking that up and everytime I have entered they have asked whether I'm carrying or not. I'm gonna start the process very soon in getting to the bottom of this and not allowing them to break the law.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  14. #14
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    Thats one of the few times I would be CC.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Thank you saved me the time for looking that up and everytime I have entered they have asked whether I'm carrying or not. I'm gonna start the process very soon in getting to the bottom of this and not allowing them to break the law.
    it was right on the website you provided the link to
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    Looking at the gunshow website, the next show is the lansing show which is held on ingham county fairgrounds. Arent these county owned as well?

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jm62383 View Post
    Looking at the gunshow website, the next show is the lansing show which is held on ingham county fairgrounds. Arent these county owned as well?
    Ingham County Fairground = Private property
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    are you sure? Im pretty sure its county owned and the fair board is appointed by the county commissioners..

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Ingham County Fairground = Private property
    I will respectfully disagree. How is something that is owned and operated by the county private property?

    Unless something has changed since I have moved, this is still owned by the county. Public property.

  20. #20
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Ingham County Fairground = Private property
    From 1998 may have changed. http://www.ingham.org/BC/BC/index/98-227.htm

    These rules are made by the County commission. So I think preemption would apply.

    ection 2.4 FIREWORKS, FIREARMS AND OTHER WEAPONS


    No person shall:


    a. Have in their possession or control any firearm, shotgun, pistol, rifle, slingshot, pellet gun, air rifle, fireworks or explosives within the Fairgrounds, unless approved by the Fair Board. This rule shall not apply to any law enforcement officer.
    Last edited by Venator; 06-13-2011 at 09:19 AM.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    From 1998 may have changed. http://www.ingham.org/BC/BC/index/98-227.htm

    These rules are made by the County commission. So I think preemption would apply.

    ection 2.4 FIREWORKS, FIREARMS AND OTHER WEAPONS


    No person shall:


    a. Have in their possession or control any firearm, shotgun, pistol, rifle, slingshot, pellet gun, air rifle, fireworks or explosives within the Fairgrounds, unless approved by the Fair Board. This rule shall not apply to any law enforcement officer.
    Shame on them. MCL 123.1102 was already in effect and they enacted a NEW ordinance.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  22. #22
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I do think that this needs to be pursued... but what is the penalty for not answering their nbd question? I know that this has been discussed before, I believe it is an insurance issue. But, if you were to either cc or OC and snap off the zip tie with a pair of tweezers, who would know? The fact that some can carry however they wish (LEOs) or the zip tie can be easily removed says to me that those who wish to carry should be allowed to do so. Not to mention the preemption issue.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  23. #23
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I do think that this needs to be pursued... but what is the penalty for not answering their nbd question? I know that this has been discussed before, I believe it is an insurance issue. But, if you were to either cc or OC and snap off the zip tie with a pair of tweezers, who would know? The fact that some can carry however they wish (LEOs) or the zip tie can be easily removed says to me that those who wish to carry should be allowed to do so. Not to mention the preemption issue.
    I understand the insurance issue but they're breaking the law which is why I do plan to purse this. I know you're saying we should but I'm just stating how I feel about it. Hopefully I can use my roommates computer to write up a letter to the County with the help of another member on here. I also have a friend that OC's in Michigan and is a resident of Portage/Kzoo county so if anything needs to get picked up I'll just call on him to do it.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  24. #24
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    I understand the insurance issue but they're breaking the law which is why I do plan to purse this.
    will that be a pink or purple purse? Does the woman in your life know you carry a purse?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  25. #25
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    For the mason show A friend of mine has a booth there and they are allowed to carry when they are working there its just everyone else that can not carry, without being ziptied.

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