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Thread: CCW a Felony?

  1. #1
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    CCW a Felony?

    I need some help working this idea out in my head.

    I am slighty sympethic to the idea of making CCW a felony, but only slighty. It's in the very simple idea that we give all the law abiding permits and then we can come down on criminals harder that I get, but its a very complex issue, or a very simple Constitutional issue which is difficult for many to understand. .

    How about a compromise. Leave CCW without permit a misdeanor but create a enhancer statute that it is a felony to possess a concealed weapon during a criminal act whether or not the weapon is used. Include resisting, evading and fleeing, obstruction, etc.......

    I don't want to make a single mon that carries for self defense, but is living paycheck to paycheck and has to make very tough decions of what she cannot afford. $50 is alot of money, when you are already behind on the rent because she chose to buy food or shoes for her children. I don't want to make felons out of people like this. It's just wrong.

    Or here is a better idea, IDK. Make an ammendment to waive the $37 if the person or dependants are on Foodshare or Badgercare, or something like that.

    I really don't have this idea well formed, so I could use your help. WE have taken the Constitutional card as far as we can this session, so those debates won't help right now. That figt will continue with educating our wayward Senators by what ever means are necessarry.

  2. #2
    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Amigo!
    I'd prefer a much more direct approach. Honor constitutional carry for all citizens, recognize that law abiding citizens have the right to self defense, permit them to purchase a handgun with required background check, and issue them a CCW permit with the purchase.

    If an individual can walk in and buy a weapon, their information passing a required background check, why would another be necessary? Why would any other cost be necessary? That's just a tax, by any other name.

    The background check would be sufficient to weed out felons, so that problem is out of the way. Buy your gun, get your permit. Done deal. I strongly believe that those communities may require completion of a handgun safety course, and I know others would cry out against that as an infringement, but I don't have a problem with someone being able to demonstrate competence and responsibility with a handgun or other weapon. So maybe just buy your weapon with a certificate of completion of a course and Voila! Permit! No 90 days waiting around for some sheriff who may have an attitude about whether or not to comply with your request or deny them depending on his whim. No more spending an extra $152 (in Colorado) for a permit. No redundant background check considering one is done at the point of sale to start with. Streamline the process, and fewer folks will have problems with the process itself.

    You may have a sheriff or police chief in one jurisdiction that quickly and easily will process CCW applications, while others may drag their heels and take forever and a day to get the thing done. You are, meanwhile, at the mercy of an individual to pass judgment on your worthiness to carry a weapon. Bullfeathers. If you pass criminal background check and can purchase a handgun, can show you know laws regulating your rights to a weapon, proficiency with the weapon and responsible handling, that should be enough (more likely more than enough) to suffice.

    Trouble is, everybody is getting their cut of a big money pie by gumming up your rights with requirements that will cost you plenty. So long as folks are making money on the deal, every citizen is having their rights infringed.

    Your ability to purchase a handgun legally and pass the background check should be all she wrote. I don't think it unreasonable that training be involved, but the mandatory thing is onerous to many.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  3. #3
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post

    I am slighty sympethic to the idea of making CCW a felony, but only slighty.
    I am also trying to work it out in my head, but I'm not particularly sympathetic to the idea of making CCW a felony for anyone who does not possess a permit.

    First, it enshrines the idea of PERMITTED concealed care ONLY. This may create a psychological barrier among legislators that will make it difficult to EVER establish constitutional carry in the future. They will say, "What? You want us to recognize as a constitutional right something we currently consider a felony??" As a potential obstacle to future constitutional carry, I object to it.

    Secondly, weapons-- guns in particular-- are already demonized enough in the heads of many people. This will only increase the perception of weapons as something evil.

    To my thinking it is a step in the wrong direction. Anything inspired by Chief Ed Flynn, and his Massachusetts police state mentality, ought to be examined very carefully and with a huge dose of skepticism.

    The only acceptable form of this law to me would be to make it a felony to conceal a gun by a person who is not legally able to possess a firearm. That way they can pile another felony charge on top of what is already a felony. That wouldn't particularly bother me because it isn't a way to come down hard on law-abiding people.
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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    What! If the reason is to clamp down on criminals, then clamp down on criminals. A felon in possession of any firearm, carried concealed or openly in public or private locations is already a felony punishable by a mandatory 5 years in prison under federal law and I am certain can pull at least 5 years under WI law as well. Why burden those that are not felons with the offense of "lacking a government permission slip to defend your life".

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    Thats what I was thinking also. If you cant have a gun or do something wrong with it pile on as many as you want. But A law abiding citizen doing nothing wrong just exercising a right now they want to ruin his life. Srew that.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockman View Post
    What! If the reason is to clamp down on criminals, then clamp down on criminals. A felon in possession of any firearm, carried concealed or openly in public or private locations is already a felony punishable by a mandatory 5 years in prison under federal law and I am certain can pull at least 5 years under WI law as well. Why burden those that are not felons with the offense of "lacking a government permission slip to defend your life".

    The problem is that anyone one who has a criminal history, with no domestic abuse or felonies can legally possess a firearm, so they could carry during the commission of a crime that would not forfiet thier right to carry. That is what I want changed.
    I am talking about leaving CCW without a permit as is and creating a enhancer for any crimes committed, misdemeanors as well as felonies while in possession of a firearm, even if it was not used in the commission of the crime.

  7. #7
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Amigo!
    I'd prefer a much more direct approach. Honor constitutional carry for all citizens, recognize that law abiding citizens have the right to self defense, permit them to purchase a handgun with required background check, and issue them a CCW permit with the purchase.

    If an individual can walk in and buy a weapon, their information passing a required background check, why would another be necessary? Why would any other cost be necessary? That's just a tax, by any other name.

    The background check would be sufficient to weed out felons, so that problem is out of the way. Buy your gun, get your permit. Done deal. I strongly believe that those communities may require completion of a handgun safety course, and I know others would cry out against that as an infringement, but I don't have a problem with someone being able to demonstrate competence and responsibility with a handgun or other weapon. So maybe just buy your weapon with a certificate of completion of a course and Voila! Permit! No 90 days waiting around for some sheriff who may have an attitude about whether or not to comply with your request or deny them depending on his whim. No more spending an extra $152 (in Colorado) for a permit. No redundant background check considering one is done at the point of sale to start with. Streamline the process, and fewer folks will have problems with the process itself.

    You may have a sheriff or police chief in one jurisdiction that quickly and easily will process CCW applications, while others may drag their heels and take forever and a day to get the thing done. You are, meanwhile, at the mercy of an individual to pass judgment on your worthiness to carry a weapon. Bullfeathers. If you pass criminal background check and can purchase a handgun, can show you know laws regulating your rights to a weapon, proficiency with the weapon and responsible handling, that should be enough (more likely more than enough) to suffice.

    Trouble is, everybody is getting their cut of a big money pie by gumming up your rights with requirements that will cost you plenty. So long as folks are making money on the deal, every citizen is having their rights infringed.

    Your ability to purchase a handgun legally and pass the background check should be all she wrote. I don't think it unreasonable that training be involved, but the mandatory thing is onerous to many.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    First, the state DOJ issues permits, not local sheriffs. Many of Our sheriffs were against Conceal Carry because of the burden placed on them to issue permits, so it went to the DOJ.

    Second, there is no background check for private sales. With your idea, one could only get a permit if they purchased a handgun from a FFL. I might feel compeled to sell one of my handguns to a sister or cousin for a dollar if there was a compelling reason.

    Third, the situation is we are getting the best CC legislation we can right now and we will continue to fight to make it better. But for right now, legislation may be passed within this next week seprate from the CC legislation, to raise CCW from a Misdemeanor to a Felony.

  8. #8
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    I am also trying to work it out in my head, but I'm not particularly sympathetic to the idea of making CCW a felony for anyone who does not possess a permit.

    First, it enshrines the idea of PERMITTED concealed care ONLY. This may create a psychological barrier among legislators that will make it difficult to EVER establish constitutional carry in the future. They will say, "What? You want us to recognize as a constitutional right something we currently consider a felony??" As a potential obstacle to future constitutional carry, I object to it.

    Secondly, weapons-- guns in particular-- are already demonized enough in the heads of many people. This will only increase the perception of weapons as something evil.

    To my thinking it is a step in the wrong direction. Anything inspired by Chief Ed Flynn, and his Massachusetts police state mentality, ought to be examined very carefully and with a huge dose of skepticism.

    The only acceptable form of this law to me would be to make it a felony to conceal a gun by a person who is not legally able to possess a firearm. That way they can pile another felony charge on top of what is already a felony. That wouldn't particularly bother me because it isn't a way to come down hard on law-abiding people.
    OK, I am going in 2 different directions. Shotgun, what do you think?

    First Direction:
    Waive the permitting fee and background check fee for anyone on Foodshare, with dependants of Badgercare, etc... any program that has income eligability limits. Also anyone on VA Benifits.

    Second Direction:
    Make CCW without a permit a Forfeiture by anyone without a criminal record and without criminal intent.

    Make CCW without a permit a Felony by anyone previously convicted of a Class A, B, or C Misdemeanor.

    Make CCW without a permit a Felony by anyone who uses a firearm in the commission of any Misdemeanor or Felony.

    Make CCW without a permit a Felony by anyone who possesses a firearm during the commission of any Misdemeanor or Felony.

    In light of a good Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground legislation to protect victimns to use weapons in self-defense, this makes sense to me. But if anyone wants to pick at it, please do.

    I want my position to be well reasoned and articulated, because I am going to take my tent to Madison and establish a suburb to Walkerville and call it Fitzwalkerstan, and become a full time lobbyist for a week on this issue.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 06-11-2011 at 06:04 PM.

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    I would only agree to a felony as the "enhancer" penalty... and maybe, just maybe, for a repeat offender with multiple offenses (like OWI... it gets to a point were you gotta clamp down). I could see someone without a permit getting stuck in an unexpected situation that requires carrying concealed without a permit. Or someone OCing and accidently covering up. Once, maybe twice, maybe even 3 or 4 times. But if it keeps occuring after that, they just don't want, or cannot get, a permit. The "can't afford it" excuse won't wash after the first couple times, because the cost of the fines would far outweigh the $50 permit and even a top-notch training class. I know of only one person convicted of cc, and his fine was nearly $1,200 with court costs.

  10. #10
    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    We know the law...

    ...and as legal carriers will have to abide. As someone said, we've pushed this as far as we can this session. While in committee regarding SB93 Lena Taylor, a Senator from Milwaukee, complained that the bill was unfair to words the poverty stricken. The idea of the waver was mentioned regarding the voter ID. I believe we can us this as a precedence, and this should serve to bring the possibility of this issue to a realty for all legal gun owners.
    Last edited by wild boar; 06-11-2011 at 06:32 PM.
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    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    There are already laws on the books that apply to possession of a firearm during the commission of a crime that state "Whether or not the firearm is used to assist in the commission of said crime"

    Adding more won't do any good.
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  12. #12
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    There are already laws on the books that apply to possession of a firearm during the commission of a crime that state "Whether or not the firearm is used to assist in the commission of said crime"

    Adding more won't do any good.
    But, is it currently a Felony?
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 06-11-2011 at 07:40 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Yes!
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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    Yes!
    Then, nothing would change as far as that goes, but I would still keep those elements for my position.

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    Regular Member UtahRSO's Avatar
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    Too many "felonies" as it is...

    I'm just an old guy that thinks that there are too many things that are now labeled as felonies. And to lose your gun rights permanently over most of them is asinine. There ought to be a difference in denying ownership of guns between non-violent and violent felonies. i have a friend (now deceased) who stole some money as a fairly young person, and went to prison for it. Yes, he deserved what he got, but for the rest of his life he was an honest and peaceful man. But, as a felon, he couldn't go shooting with me. It never seemed right to me to do that to him.

    As for an otherwise law-abiding person carrying without a permit, making that a felony is stupid! Now that the SCOTUS has decided that the 2A is an individual right, with Heller and McDonald, and that it's incorporated against the states, I don't understand why we still have to have a permission slip to carry.

    Of course, I'm just an old guy who remembers the freedoms we once had.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahRSO View Post
    I'm just an old guy that thinks that there are too many things that are now labeled as felonies. And to lose your gun rights permanently over most of them is asinine. There ought to be a difference in denying ownership of guns between non-violent and violent felonies. i have a friend (now deceased) who stole some money as a fairly young person, and went to prison for it. Yes, he deserved what he got, but for the rest of his life he was an honest and peaceful man. But, as a felon, he couldn't go shooting with me. It never seemed right to me to do that to him.

    As for an otherwise law-abiding person carrying without a permit, making that a felony is stupid! Now that the SCOTUS has decided that the 2A is an individual right, with Heller and McDonald, and that it's incorporated against the states, I don't understand why we still have to have a permission slip to carry.

    Of course, I'm just an old guy who remembers the freedoms we once had.
    Ex-felons can get there voting rights back. I agree that non-violent ex-felons get thier 2A rights back.

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    This thread is killing me!

    "the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

    enuff said.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET
    leaving CCW without a permit as is and creating a enhancer for any crimes committed, misdemeanors as well as felonies while in possession of a firearm, even if it was not used in the commission of the crime.
    The only problem I see with this is when a person goes in front of a liberal gun-hating 'judge' who either doesn't understand the law or doesn't pay attention to it.

    When I went to the first hearing to get my pistol back from MPD, I saw several cases where the judge ignored the law & ordered people's property withheld from them & destroyed because she thought they had committed a crime, when they really hadn't.

    Or in a couple cases, the "crime" was ccw.

    If there were some way to confine the extra penalty to a crime committed against another person, or even burglary...? If someone else is injured by the crime, if it's not a victimless non-crime (like ccw is now), then I'd agree to the enhancer.

    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET
    Ex-felons can get their voting rights back. I agree that non-violent ex-felons get their 2A rights back.
    One of the only good things I saw her do that afternoon was to restore the 2A rights of a man who'd behaved badly years before, & found out after buying a couple of guns (& going hunting for years) that he really was a prohibited person.

    I also agree to having a fee waiver for people on public assistance.
    Should be easy enough for them to check their own databases, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    I need some help working this idea out in my head.

    I am slighty sympethic to the idea of making CCW a felony, but only slighty. It's in the very simple idea that we give all the law abiding permits and then we can come down on criminals harder that I get, but its a very complex issue, or a very simple Constitutional issue which is difficult for many to understand. .
    Not to be too critical since you admit to still be developing your thoughts on this, but let me get this straight. Someone who has said on this forum that they will support recalling the governor unless the governor signs a constitutional carry bill (whether or not the legislature even passes one) now wants to make the exact same act a felony for certain non-felons?

    I think this illustrates an important phenomena. The "political continuum" is really a circle. The most liberty minded of us are often the most likely to become the worst authoritarians (myself included). I have noticed that in other permit states you are most likely to be challenged for your permit by another permit holder (since we know best what to look for). I think that this is an excellent reminder that we will all need to be on guard not to become the enemies of other peaceable people’s freedoms once we finally obtain our own.

    Also related to the above, I hope that you decide to give Governor Walker a pass on all this assuming that he signs the current substituted bill. It could simply be that our pro-gun elected officials sincerely believe that the quickest way for us to get constitutional carry is through a two step process by passing the best possible permit bill now (which also improves open carry) and come back for constitutional carry in the near future. Please also give some thought to this.

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member springfield 1911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakon View Post
    This thread is killing me!

    "the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

    enuff said.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJQ34JTqk0I

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  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member springfield 1911's Avatar
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    When it comes to crime ,enforce the laws already on the books .

    We don't need to keep creating laws till our rights are gone.
    The problem seems to be the court system in dealing with repeat offenders - career criminals.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJQ34JTqk0I

    In the ashes burns an ember of liberty, We are the fuel to ignite the ember into a flame of liberty.

    The embodiment of our founding fathers will not be found in one man , But in Many.

    ****** give it away ( Our rights ) prostitutes sell it (Mandated training).

  22. #22
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    The problem with your suggestion is that some places have ridiculous misdemeanors. For instance in the city I live in it is a misdemeanor to spit on the sidewalk. This is punishable by $500 and up to a year in prison. So it could happen that because I spit on the sidewalk I'm now a felon because my firearm got covered while I was getting out of the car in front of a policeman. I'm of the mind that once someone has served their time and paid their fine they should not have to continue to pay for their past mistakes. I see no reason to make CCW a felony under any circumstances.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
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  23. #23
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    Permit fee?

    I was talking to somebody today about the possible suggested fee for a CCW permit.

    This person said that the fee was too high and was not affordable.

    Strange thing was I ran into this person just coming out of a store with two cartons of cigarettes and a case of beer.

    This person was somewhat angry with me when I suggested that they give up smoking for a week or two and the fee would be covered.

    It all comes down to priorities.

    JMHO

    JJC

  24. #24

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    We have enough felonies on the books now. None of which seems to be reducing crime. I see this law being used against otherwise law abiding citizens rather than against criminals. Let's just enforce the laws we already have.

  25. #25
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJC View Post
    I was talking to somebody today about the possible suggested fee for a CCW permit.

    This person said that the fee was too high and was not affordable.

    Strange thing was I ran into this person just coming out of a store with two cartons of cigarettes and a case of beer.

    This person was somewhat angry with me when I suggested that they give up smoking for a week or two and the fee would be covered.

    It all comes down to priorities.

    JMHO

    JJC
    Anyone who smokes or drinks should not complain about a $50 fee. But realize $50 for some will not mean giving up alcohol and nicotine for a time, but food or clothing for themselves and thier children. How about a senior citizen that already has to choose between food or perscriptions. That is why I want the permit fee waived for anyone that qualifies for public assistance programs.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 06-12-2011 at 12:49 AM.

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