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Thread: Open Carry Talking Points, Video

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    Regular Member sohighlyunlikely's Avatar
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    Open Carry Talking Points, Video


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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Pard!
    That's a really nice video, and I'd be 100% behind it if there wasn't an erroneous statistic shown in the video itself. In one particular photo are the words "100% of liberals consider gun owners to be criminals". That statistic is utterly false. I know, because I am a liberal, and also a gun owner. I also open carry. The best possible statistic, given that I am not one who believes gun owners are criminals would be
    99.9%, assuming I am the only liberal in the United States who holds the view that I do. I know that isn't the case, because I know plenty of other liberals who also own firearms. So the statistic is hokum, and tends to diminish the credibility of the video itself. If one statistic is patently false, then all the rest are suspect.

    That being said, I understand you aren't the person who put the video together (Or perhaps you are?) but merely posted the thing. While it seems to be a terrific video on the face of it, that notion of "divide and conquer" by demonizing liberals (who also are often gun owners too) just doesn't serve our aims well.

    Thank you for the link, and I did enjoy the video.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Like it.

    Mine would be different but the same

    9.98 out of ten, have to give you something to shoot for on the next two
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    That being said, I understand you aren't the person who put the video together (Or perhaps you are?) but merely posted the thing. While it seems to be a terrific video on the face of it, that notion of "divide and conquer" by demonizing liberals (who also are often gun owners too) just doesn't serve our aims well.

    Thank you for the link, and I did enjoy the video.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Statistically speaking no statistic is ever 100%. Detracting from simple statistically proven averages out of the simplicity that no margin of error was advertised with proposed statistic is the byproduct of spin.

    a quick review of infringements on 2a issues will find itself almost if not 100% sponsored by the left. Voting reviews of how they passed will not reach the 100% level, however it is quite safe to say well beyond any margin of error gun laws are passed by the left with very few leaning left voting against and very few leaning right voting for.

    You may not like your chosen party's position on firearms but to deny it based upon the margin of error call is wanting at best and there is not reason to be weak in mind and spirit, call it how it is and you might see change.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    I have to say it....

    Attacking other gun carriers.... bad idea. That part could have been left out and just talk about open-carry, not take a jab at CCW holder's AND instuctors. But hey, whoever made the video I'm sure can get legislation passed all by himself. Who needs numbers to get something accepted by the public that may not want it ?

    If all gun owners don't stick together, we are doomed. Calling CCW holder's "Elitists " is not a good idea for a "pro-gun" video, IMO.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    The video is basically good, I agree that the negatives about the instructors may not be a good talking point, although very valid!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    The video is basically good, I agree that the negatives about the instructors may not be a good talking point, although very valid!
    I agree, but again, not good to call out the people you NEED on your side.

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    Regular Member sohighlyunlikely's Avatar
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    If the shoe fits

    Quote Originally Posted by Festus_Hagen View Post
    I have to say it....

    Attacking other gun carriers.... bad idea. That part could have been left out and just talk about open-carry, not take a jab at CCW holder's AND instructors. But hey, whoever made the video I'm sure can get legislation passed all by himself. Who needs numbers to get something accepted by the public that may not want it ?

    If all gun owners don't stick together, we are doomed. Calling CCW holder's "Elitists " is not a good idea for a "pro-gun" video, IMO.
    Good day Mr Hagan,
    How long has it been since you gave up on OCDO since others had called you out on bashing others who OC in urban areas and being active in promoting OC. Did you even make it a week?
    When you said you were done with this forum I knew it was to good to be true. I see you couldn't give up your trolling ways. No jab was made at CCW holders or Instructors, only the very very outspoken few that condemn OC every chance they get. Who's only agenda is to maintain their accomplishment of sneaking a firearm around and have made it abundantly clear that they are in no way in support of Open Carry or the uninfringed 2nd Amendment rights of others.
    They have had all the time in the world to accomplish OC here in MO before I started pushing the OC movement to the forefront. All indications show they wouldn't have ever done it. And if now they will only do it if pandered to and only if let there anti 2A speech un-accounted for. Then I say "Thanks but no thanks". If they want to wake up and re-invent themselves as truly pro 2A then I invite them to do so. If they have a problem with being pointed out for their wrong doings then they can come here defend the hundreds of anti OC words they have typed out. But I am guessing the only person that will pipe up is their usual fan-boy.

    Doc

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    Regular Member sohighlyunlikely's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Pard!
    That's a really nice video, and I'd be 100% behind it if there wasn't an erroneous statistic shown in the video itself. In one particular photo are the words "100% of liberals consider gun owners to be criminals". That statistic is utterly false. I know, because I am a liberal, and also a gun owner. I also open carry.
    Thank you for the link, and I did enjoy the video.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    video edited on your behalf

    Doc

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sohighlyunlikely View Post
    video edited on your behalf

    Doc
    Howdy Amigo!
    All I can say to that is wow... I am taken aback!
    Thank you for your consideration, and I surely do appreciate the video overall.
    Nice work, BTW.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    a quick review of infringements on 2a issues will find itself almost if not 100% sponsored by the left.
    <snip>
    You may not like your chosen party's position on firearms but to deny it based upon the margin of error call is wanting at best and there is not reason to be weak in mind and spirit, call it how it is and you might see change.
    Howdy Pard!
    Thank you for your response and you may be right. However, the two piece of legislation that come to mind are the Brady bill, not sponsored by the left, and the more recent change to National Park and Wetlands areas improving the rights of gun owners that Obama signed into law. Two pieces of legislation, one restrictive, the second more tolerant.

    The thing is this. If I do not like my party's position, I am not alone. Those of us who are pro gun rights are making a difference. We can bring about change to the party platform, and it is something that folks need to do if they want to advance the cause. It really doesn't matter whether one is liberal or conservative, Democratic or Republican or Libertarian or any other stripe. Those who make an effort can have a direct impact. Please allow me to illustrate:

    Party platforms (and candidates as well) are established at the precinct caucus level. That's the absolute best place to voice an opinion where it is likely to affect platform and candidates. How many of us take the time and effort to go to caucus meetings? They ain't the most fun exercise in our system, but that's a great place to put forward ideas that end up as part of a party platform. It is not unusual for only a handful of folks to show up for caucus meetings. Now, if about a dozen folks show up and take part in that caucus, they can very easily be the majority in such caucus. If that happened in every caucus in every precinct in every district, things would be much more malleable.

    Just yesterday I spent an hour with an Obama organizer. She asked if I intended to support Obama next election. I told her I was biding my time to see what shakes out in the next few months. We met at a local Village Inn restaurant where I carried my XDm on my right hip, plainly visible to her. We talked a great deal about gun rights and she learned some things that I'm pretty certain never crossed her mind. Might that have an impact? How many gun owners have done that sort of thing? She told me I was the first person she'd met who had such a passion for gun rights. We talked about the shooting in Arizona, and I asked her how many people might have been spared if only one of those folks had been armed and ready to take down the assailant. She told me that she doesn't carry a firearm, and I explained how statistics show that there are two type of folks in America. Those who have been victimized by criminals, and those that eventually will be touched by crime; whether that be themselves or a neighbor or relative, it is going to affect her at some point. I told her I respected her decision not to arm herself, but also that I hoped when her brush with criminals happened, there'd be a cop right handy to help her out. But with police response from 6 to 8 minutes, that would be nearly an eternity for the victim. I then said, maybe you'll be lucky and a citizen carrying a weapon, such as myself, will be there when the chips are down. Do you really want to deny their right to defend their own lives... or yours?

    The discussion went on along similar lines, recounting court cases showing that cops are not obligated to protect an individual citizen, how the woman in Castle Rock couldn't get enforcement on a restraining order with disasterous consequences, and many others. "You see a pattern here? If you are not armed, prepared to defend yourself, what are you going to do?"

    In the end, I told her my decision on who I'd vote for would depend greatly on whether the candidate... any candidate... displayed an uncommon dedication to the bill of rights and the Constitution of the United States.

    The point I am trying to make is this.... we all have a part to play. We all need to do something proactive to ensure our rights. We need to influence our elected officials and candidates for public office with our insistence that they uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, as required by their sworn oath.

    The Right is already pretty much locked in at 55%. The Dems are good for 32%. But together, we only account for about 25% of all possible voters. With turnout being what it often is at election time, every one of us who holds our rights dear must stand and be counted. Otherwise, apathy can spell the demise of rights. Every single vote counts. Every encounter with an elected offical matters. Every opportunity to discuss our position with candidates is vital. We need every voice that is for us.

    Unity of purpose will make progress. Sniping one another only serves to ensure our own downfall.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    .....<snipped for brevity>.....
    Unfortunately, there is a lot more to it than that. By their very nature, most "liberal" policies are incompatible with real freedom and liberty. And these policies are NOT just limited to those that the Democratic Party tends to support, but to many that the Republican Party tends to support as well. For example, both parties openly support the various government social programs that are slowly but surely bankrupting us, and both parties have continually added more and more bureaucracy to those programs over the years.

    Government provided handouts = the opposite of individual freedom and liberty.

    Government mandates on health insurance = the opposite of individual freedom and liberty.

    Debased currency and the subsequent arbitrary inflation = the opposite of individual freedom and liberty.

    So-called "common sense gun laws" = the opposite of individual freedom and liberty.

    Of course, this list could go on, and on, and on.

    In reality, it has been 100 years of "progressive" ideas and ideals, perpetuated by both Republicans and Democrats, that has taken this once great country and pushed it to the brink of catastrophic collapse. We ignore our Constitution at our own peril.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sohighlyunlikely View Post
    <snipped for relevance>
    Doc
    You the man , cowboy !





    Last edited by Festus_Hagen; 06-12-2011 at 09:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    The thing is this. If I do not like my party's position, I am not alone. Those of us who are pro gun rights are making a difference.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Sir,

    All due respect, I have NEVER understood how the liberal platform could proclaim to be pretty much about "equal rights" when they have pretty much 100% ignored the bill of rights. To me, it is a party of persons whom have developed great skill and are quite proficient at talking out both sides of their mouths. Before you feel this is condemnation, please understand that I see that same skill in the GOP far too often as well.

    What I have heard you say is that you do not like everything that the dems do and you are working from within to try and change that and I will indeed tip my hat to you, that is what it is all about, but I will respectfully decline any invitations to assist you in that effort as there are many other things that go on within that particular party, as well as the GOP that leave me, a middle class voter whom thinks that my business is mine and yours is yours party-less.

    Since this webspace only appreciates political discussions surrounding gun rights, I will indeed stop there and offer an electronic hand shake to a man whom shares some ideals with me regarding firearms and perhaps others as well, and I will simply respect the choice you made as I believe that is the best choice I can make and I know I am not 100% correct every time I make a choice.

    Good Luck and I hope you do well, there was never a reason for the democrats to anchor themselves anti-gun as guns have protected the rights they proclaim to seek for over two hundred years.

    Rich
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Festus_Hagen View Post
    I have to say it....

    not take a jab at CCW holder's AND instuctors.
    I have to say it ...

    opinions often vary, here is a differing one for your consideration.

    It was not a "jab" it was in fact a counter punch, one that was delivered after standing tall and taking jabs for an extended period and smiling and walking away.

    While I, like yourself tried to influence Doc in his dealings with the CCW crowd observed him dialing it down a notch and the net result was negative progress.

    The perceived need is not available, it may offer warm and fuzzy to a few whom have indeed given a great deal of sweat and effort, but it still is not available.

    The great state of Missouri has had CCW for almost 7 years now, to my knowledge, incidents in CCW persons taking irresponsible shots remains in SINGLE DIGITS. Perhaps one can explain the need for doubling of training requirements for this non-existing problem, I can not.

    I am a proponent of firearms training, I believe it to be very very important, I am not a proponent of government forced anything surrounding firearms and indeed persons are now forced to pay more and spend more time training not to do something that is not happening anyway and sir calling it like I see it, that is so freakin brady like it makes me wanna puke.

    If there was some other reason beyond lining trainers pockets it should be exposed because that is exactly what a lot of 2a supporters are indeed saying.

    All due respect, the counter punch should have included a follow through elbow as well because the fight got dirty already and the olive branches offered were stripped of their leaves, chewed like redman and spat upon the ground at folks feet, I will keep the twig so as not to forget.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Quote Originally Posted by sohighlyunlikely View Post
    Good day Mr Hagan,
    How long has it been since you gave up on OCDO since others had called you out on bashing others who OC in urban areas and being active in promoting OC. Did you even make it a week?
    When you said you were done with this forum I knew it was to good to be true. I see you couldn't give up your trolling ways. No jab was made at CCW holders or Instructors, only the very very outspoken few that condemn OC every chance they get. Who's only agenda is to maintain their accomplishment of sneaking a firearm around and have made it abundantly clear that they are in no way in support of Open Carry or the uninfringed 2nd Amendment rights of others.
    They have had all the time in the world to accomplish OC here in MO before I started pushing the OC movement to the forefront. All indications show they wouldn't have ever done it. And if now they will only do it if pandered to and only if let there anti 2A speech un-accounted for. Then I say "Thanks but no thanks". If they want to wake up and re-invent themselves as truly pro 2A then I invite them to do so. If they have a problem with being pointed out for their wrong doings then they can come here defend the hundreds of anti OC words they have typed out. But I am guessing the only person that will pipe up is their usual fan-boy.


    Doc
    Did someone call Mr. Hagan out? If I remember correctly Mr. Hagan stated in his parting remarks that he would not be back unless called out. Did he come back on his own? If so can we depend on anything he says now?

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    You know team, we have enough detractors in and out of our ranks..... Civil is the order of the day. We have differences but our goal is the same when it come to OC in Missouri.
    I have an opinion on the guy also...... Live and let live, I won't be inviting him home for dinner, nor comment on his posts.... Just let it go.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    I have an opinion on the guy also...... Live and let live, I won't be inviting him home for dinner, nor comment on his posts.... Just let it go.
    All because I have an opinion. I hear a lot about rights, but when it comes to differing opinions than yours, it's all of a sudden different it seems.

    Sounds like you need a "Yes" man. I ain't it.

    I don't attack anyone that doesn't attack me, I try and remain civil, but am sometimes ganged-up on for voicing my opinion, which may differ from others. As I've stated before, I have no problem with you having a different opinion. Why does it bother you so much that I do ? I don't get it ...

    I can deal with it. No problem. I try to only respond to people that I think I MAYBE I can have a conversation/ debate with and not get someone's panties in a wad . It's hard to do that with some.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9026543 View Post
    Did someone call Mr. Hagan out? If I remember correctly Mr. Hagan stated in his parting remarks that he would not be back unless called out. Did he come back on his own? If so can we depend on anything he says now?
    You really need to get that chip off your shoulder pal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    I have to say it ...

    opinions often vary, here is a differing one for your consideration....
    And I respect your opinion. I may not fully agree with you, but that's OK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Festus_Hagen View Post
    You really need to get that chip off your shoulder pal.
    What chip? Was only repeating what had been posted. Then asked a question.

    Why do you think your way of gettng OC is the only way? The so called self appointed leaders over on mocarry have no interest in helping get OC and have so stated such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9026543 View Post
    What chip? Was only repeating what had been posted. Then asked a question.

    Why do you think your way of gettng OC is the only way? The so called self appointed leaders over on mocarry have no interest in helping get OC and have so stated such.
    First off, I DON't think MY way is the only way, but numbers would sure help.

    SOME people over there, NOT all have no interest. I personally think that part in the video will turn off some people that MAY be on the fence.

    The way I see it, you have 3 types of people over there:

    1) The kind that DON'T want OC.
    2) The kind that don't really care and are maybe not as educated about it. The video content could sway those people the wrong way or the right way, depending upon how it's worded and the way they take it.
    3) The kind that DO want OC , such as LMTD, MSPgunner, and myself as well as some others.

    SOME of those people could help if swayed the right way, IMO .

    So my post was actually trying to help, even if the wording was a little abrasive. I still say don't burn any bridges as you try to get this thing done.
    Last edited by Festus_Hagen; 06-12-2011 at 06:48 PM.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Festus_Hagen View Post
    First off, I DON't think MY way is the only way, but numbers would sure help.

    SOME people over there, NOT all have no interest. I personally think that part in the video will turn off some people that MAY be on the fence.

    The way I see it, you have 3 types of people over there:

    1) The kind that DON'T want OC.
    2) The kind that don't really care and are maybe not as educated about it. The video content could sway those people the wrong way or the right way, depending upon how it's worded and the way they take it.
    3) The kind that DO want OC , such as LMTD, MSPgunner, and myself as well as some others.

    SOME of those people could help if swayed the right way, IMO .

    So my post was actually trying to help, even if the wording was a little abrasive. I still say don't burn any bridges as you try to get this thing done.
    Very nice, great post!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

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    This was a fantastic video. I really enjoyed it and will pass it on to family in IL. They ( my family in il ) want OC and CC in IL, not just CC. This video also makes me want to go out and open carry even more.
    Last edited by Tony4310; 06-12-2011 at 08:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony4310 View Post
    This video also makes me want to go out and open carry even more.
    You were supposed to with the other 14 or so of us at Chevy's tonight, instead you stayed home and now we have dancing fruit again.

    Edit: oops I see it was not fruit, you were indeed playing with your monkey!

    Last edited by LMTD; 06-12-2011 at 09:03 PM.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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